SiCKo by Micheal Moore

[alanschu]

Bleeding heart liberal fascist nonsense?

 

All of those adjectives do not apply to Taks, and I've bumped heads with him on a few occasions. And I live in Alberta, Canada, and my income level has me pay $44/month for Alberta Health Care. Not an unreasonable price, and whenever I go for a checkup I don't pay at the door or anything, but it's certainly not free. This ignores that many poorer people get their health care premiums fully and partially subsidized.

 

Though to be honest, I don't mind our health care system, and think the critics that whine about it like to take extreme examples themselves to prove their points.

 

 

 

Anyways, carry on. See you all next month!

[Calax]

which are?

 

taks

I think he was aiming for At&t

[Oerwinde]

The Canadian system is not perfect, but I'd take it over the American system any day. In BC we pay premiums for our health care based on Income, I currently pay $0 because my income isn't high enough, but I got a new job and should soon be paying around $15/month for my health care. No deductable.

 

My ex, who is american, went to see a doctor because her left side of her body went numb, they told her it was an anxiety attack (numbness is not a symptom of axiety) and prescribed some Xanex and charged her 150 bucks for the visit. The Xanex obviously did nothing so she went to a different doctor, they determined it was MS and charged her 150 for the visit then referred her to a Neurologist. No Neurologist would see her without insurance so she went almost 6 months without a confirmed diagnosis before getting a job with insurance that would cover her Neurologist visit. In the meantime she was sued by the first doctor for not paying the bill for her misdiagnosis.

 

Wait times are different depending on severity up here. You won't have to wait 6 months for an operation if you'd likely die in that time. But then again, going to the emergency room with a Bladder Infection could net you a 1 hour wait before you even see a doctor.

[Walsingham]

{I'm experimenting wwith using a summary when doing long posts}

 

SUMMARY

 

The NHS and private systems differ in their strategic clarity. A nationalised health service is just as prone to bureaucratic mismanagement as any other government run system, but it has a much clearer brief. Maintain health. My impression of the States is that this is not an imperative to the provider, only the consumer. Moreover, the statement si not to maintain health, but to make you feel better when you come in.

 

DETAIL

 

The only time I've had to wait on the NHS was for advanced cutting edge neurosurgery, and they apologised for keeping me hanging about for 3 days. This is a single instance illustrative of a broader point. If you have something everyone has then you have to wait in a long queue. Heart disease is the classic example.

 

I've dated a hospital nurse for quite some time, and she had friends across the spectrum from senior management to cleaners. The view I got from them was that the failures in the NHS were the result of bureaucratic inefficiency and personal incompetence. Stopping these was a constant struggle eased by having strategic clarity. Anyone can point at patients in distress and unused resources and demand their application.

 

The impression I have got from the US is that these natural tendencies are further complicated by the natural tension in the strategic purpose of the institution. You have a strong (not absolute) profit imperative that runs contrary.

 

My last point is that every person I've ever spoken to in epidemiology including the heartless money grubbing consultants, said that healthcare is like circumcision. It's either total or it ain't worth it.

[Guard Dog]

Go Meshugger. Finally someone reasonable stands against taks and his crazy bleeding heart liberal fascist nonsense.

WTF???

 

If that was a joke I don't get it. If it was a statement you do not know Taks or do not understand the definition of your pejoratives.

[Sand]

Wrong. Didn't you read my example? Competition for business keeps prices low.

Oh yes, and monopolies don't ever ever ever ever ever happen.

[Tale]

which are?

 

taks

Modern: Microsoft

Historically: Carnegie Steel

[Hiro Protagonist]

Some of my experiences with a socialised health care system in Australia: 1986 - Dental braces, 1988 - Contact lens left eye, 1991 - Intraocular lens implant left eye, 1997 - Retinal detachment left eye, 1999 - Left arm in cast (rollerblading accident), 2002 - Start Bullous Keratophy treatment left eye (corneal damage from an accidental intrusion of my left eye), 2004 - Finished Bullous Keratophy treatment left eye (including laser surgery)

 

All this didn't cost me a cent and I didn't have health insurance throughout all this. This also doesn't include all the free (atleast a hundred) medical visits to doctors and hospitals over the last 25 years or so. If you see a doctor atleats 5 times a year, over 25 years, it's going to be well over a hundred. Unfortunately, the Australian system is going down the road that America has gone and the current government for the last 10 years has been dismantling Medicare to force people onto private health insurance. Many people I know including people at my current work can't afford the private health insurance. Yeah, social health care is just plain wrong. I mean, you wouldn't want people who can't afford treatment to put up with this and go blind, deaf, etc, ... or even die.

 

I want to live in France now. :sad:

[Hell Kitty]

Go Meshugger. Finally someone reasonable stands against taks and his crazy bleeding heart liberal fascist nonsense.

WTF???

 

If that was a joke I don't get it. If it was a statement you do not know Taks or do not understand the definition of your pejoratives.

 

I don't think theslug is calling taks a crazy bleeding heart liberal fascist, rather something about the crazy bleeding heart liberals who want government in charge of health care are fascists.

[Sand]

The only thing that doctors, hospitals, and insurance companies, along with all those drug companies want is money. Money and only money. If you don't have the money then you can rot and die. They don't give a crap. Kind of like that story on CNN a while back where a hispanic woman bled to death in an LA emergency room lobby and the doctors and nurses just watched her die. The 911 dispatch wouldn't even send an ambulance from another hospital to help her. They just let her die because she had no money to pay for treatment.

 

This is the sort of medical system we have in the U.S..

[Gfted1]

Ive got outstanding medical and dental insurance. Its a PPO (Blue Cross/Blue Shield), is 100% paid for by my company and covers my entire family. I can walk into any facility and be seen and have never had to wait more then a day or two for an appointment.

 

As an aside, Im constantly amazed that its not realized that this "free" medical isnt free at all. The Scandinavians pay through the nose for that service via taxes. In addition, does nobody take into account a countries population? The cost for socializing medicine in the US (300M+ people) would be staggering.

[Hiro Protagonist]

As an aside, Im constantly amazed that its not realized that this "free" medical isnt free at all. The Scandinavians pay through the nose for that service via taxes. In addition, does nobody take into account a countries population? The cost for socializing medicine in the US (300M+ people) would be staggering.

 

It doesn't cost that much at all. You might only have to pay 1.5% of your taxable income (not necessarily your full income) which is what most taxpayers pay in Australia and this can be absorbed by your tax refund. So in effect, you are never out of pocket.

 

edit: I just checked my tax records from last year and my tax refund was $6143.56 less $1738.54 medicare levy = $4405.02. So I never actually 'paid' anything out of my bank account and I got a nice refund from the Govt. Also, most people wouldn't be paying the sort of medicare levy I pay and the medicare levy I paid was on my taxable income, not my gross income.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Hiro Protagonist

[Kaftan Barlast]

'Socialized' healthcare is superior to commercial/privatised healthcare in every way. It all starts with the very basic thing that the #1 priority for a state-funded healthcare system is to cure people, whereas the #1 priority for privatized healthcare is to make a profit.

 

 

 

Take that you capitalist stooges!

 

 

 

 

p.s

 

Captain America would choose socialized healthcare too, and veryone who doesnt agree with Captain America is a freedom-hating nazi "

[Guard Dog]

which are?

 

taks

Modern: Microsoft

Historically: Carnegie Steel

 

Tale and Sand, you both have an unreasonable fear of coporations and an unreasonable trust in the fidelity and abilities of the government. First of all, no one is calling for the repeal of the Sherman Act (the US anti-trust law) and both the companies you name have been called down under that statute.

 

Big companies seem to draw a lot of ire as being a "big greedy evil profit mongering" monsters. I've never understood this irrational fear or loathing of corporations many of you exhibit. A comapny cannot take anything away from you that you do not give up freely. They cannot confiscate your house and property, they cannot seize your assets, and they cannot throw in in prison. The government can though. If you sue a company and your complaint is justified you will have a good expectation of success. If you need to go to court against the government the deck is so stacked against you that justice and fact are often not enough to prevail.

 

So who should you really be afraid of here?

[Tale]

which are?

 

taks

Modern: Microsoft

Historically: Carnegie Steel

 

Tale and Sand, you both have an unreasonable fear of coporations and an unreasonable trust in the fidelity and abilities of the government. First of all, no one is calling for the repeal of the Sherman Act (the US anti-trust law) and both the companies you name have been called down under that statute.

 

Big companies seem to draw a lot of ire as being a "big greedy evil profit mongering" monsters. I've never understood this irrational fear or loathing of corporations many of you exhibit. A comapny cannot take anything away from you that you do not give up freely. They cannot confiscate your house and property, they cannot seize your assets, and they cannot throw in in prison. The government can though. If you sue a company and your complaint is justified you will have a good expectation of success. If you need to go to court against the government the deck is so stacked against you that justice and fact are often not enough to prevail.

 

And you have an unreasonable fear of actually paying attention to what people are saying.

 

You say "unfettered capitalism is an anathema to most of you. But it really does work well, and the only time it does not is when government gets involved. " You then go on to praise competition.

 

All I did was tell you that "unfettered capitalism" does not always mean competition.

 

You go on to say that "no one is calling for the repeal of the Sherman Act."

 

Here's a tidbit for you. The presence of the Sherman Act alone prevents unfettered capitalism. The sole thing I'm speaking against. I'm not speaking against big corporations. Not claiming extensive corporate greed. I'm speaking exclusively against the type of capitalism that you now say you're not asking for. Yet you praise in your other posts.

 

I'm kind of curious as to how I can make two short posts that both speak against monopolies and you suddenly think I've gone wholely socialist.

 

So who should you really be afraid of here?

People in power who have the same mindset you do. "If anyone disagrees with me even a little, they must be on the complete opposite side of the spectrum from me." Edited June 28, 2007 by Tale

[Spider]

As an aside, Im constantly amazed that its not realized that this "free" medical isnt free at all. The Scandinavians pay through the nose for that service via taxes. In addition, does nobody take into account a countries population? The cost for socializing medicine in the US (300M+ people) would be staggering.

 

On a per-citizen basis, we pay about half of what taks does for our healthcare (somewhere between $60-70 per month if broken down that way). This does not include dental though.

 

I've also read somewhere that the cost for healthcare in the US is considerably higher than the rest of the western world. On average the US citizen pays twice as much for healthcare compared to other countries. (that count is in actual dollars, in percent of GDP it's only about 50% more)

 

Source: http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2005/04/heal...part-i-how.html (that in turn credits other, more reliable, sources but I'm too lazy to verify)

[Guard Dog]

which are?

 

taks

Modern: Microsoft

Historically: Carnegie Steel

 

Tale and Sand, you both have an unreasonable fear of coporations and an unreasonable trust in the fidelity and abilities of the government. First of all, no one is calling for the repeal of the Sherman Act (the US anti-trust law) and both the companies you name have been called down under that statute.

 

Big companies seem to draw a lot of ire as being a "big greedy evil profit mongering" monsters. I've never understood this irrational fear or loathing of corporations many of you exhibit. A comapny cannot take anything away from you that you do not give up freely. They cannot confiscate your house and property, they cannot seize your assets, and they cannot throw in in prison. The government can though. If you sue a company and your complaint is justified you will have a good expectation of success. If you need to go to court against the government the deck is so stacked against you that justice and fact are often not enough to prevail.

 

And you have an unreasonable fear of actually paying attention to what people are saying.

 

You say "unfettered capitalism is an anathema to most of you. But it really does work well, and the only time it does not is when government gets involved. " You then go on to praise competition.

 

All I did was tell you that "unfettered capitalism" does not always mean competition.

 

You go on to say that "no one is calling for the repeal of the Sherman Act."

 

Here's a tidbit for you. The presence of the Sherman Act alone prevents unfettered capitalism. The sole thing I'm speaking against. I'm not speaking against big corporations. Not claiming extensive corporate greed. I'm speaking exclusively against the type of capitalism that you now say you're not asking for. Yet you praise in your other posts.

 

I'm kind of curious as to how I can make two short posts that both speak against monopolies and you suddenly think I've gone wholely socialist.

 

So who should you really be afraid of here?

People in power who have the same mindset you do. "If anyone disagrees with me even a little, they must be on the complete opposite side of the spectrum from me."

 

Fair enough. My comments were more directed at Sand than you anyway so I should have replied to his post. He and I debate that same line of thinking in a few other threads around here as well. Sorry to drag you into it.

[Tale]

Fair enough. My comments were more directed at Sand than you anyway so I should have replied to his post. He and I debate that same line of thinking in a few other threads around here as well. Sorry to drag you into it.

 

Oh sure, be nice and say "sorry." How am I supposed to stay angsty and unreasonable against that?!

 

I knew that's probably what was going on. You probably have this kind of debate a lot and come to expect it. But at the same time I like being an ass and working against people's expected patterns.

[Guard Dog]

But at the same time I like being an ass and working against people's expected patterns.

Well don't let that stop!

[Gromnir]

clicky

 

Its 2 hours long.

 

Tell me what you think.

I knew of the problem, but not the extent.

 

have not read thread, so am not sure what others have said. nevertheless, Gromnir simply has no interest in moore. am not expecting moore to be some kinda objective reporter of Truth; he gots an agenda and that is just fine. is no question what message he is trying to get across to audiences and where he stands on an issue. he is an advocate for his ideology. great. truth to tell, we agrees with many of his conclusions, but the way he tries to convince others that his views is right is by using lies and misrepresentations and innuendo... and he does so with full knowledge that he is muddying the search for truth.

 

were thinking that "roger and me" were a fantastic documentary... right up until we discovered that it weren't really a documentary so much as a fairytale . woulda' still been interesting as a fiction piece, but moore pretended likes he were doing factual presentation rather than whimsical fantasy.

 

we chuckled for a few moments when we realized just how much elmer gantry were being channeled by moore... were kinda funny that he had bamboozled so many people, including Gromnir.

 

...

 

dunno. people likes pro wrestling too. some folks likes even thought they know is fake. others, as improbable as it would seem, insist that it is a genuine sport. for those who watch moore and know that his act is as staged and fraudulent as pro wrestling and can still enjoy, we says, "Good for you." but for those people who thinks moore is Real... we got same contempt for you that we typically reserves for the mullet bedecked southern cousin breeders who is the stereotypical fan o' pro wrestling... as a sport.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorgon]

Wrong. Didn't you read my example? Competition for business keeps prices low.

And denials for treatment high.

[Guard Dog]

for those who watch moore and know that his act is as staged and fraudulent as pro wrestling and can still enjoy, we says, "Good for you." but for those people who thinks moore is Real... we got same contempt for you that we typically reserves for the mullet bedecked southern cousin breeders who is the stereotypical fan o' pro wrestling... as a sport.

 

 

This thread is over! No one is going to top that analysis. Too funny, and well put.

[Guard Dog]

Wrong. Didn't you read my example? Competition for business keeps prices low.

And denials for treatment high.

How do you figure? Without the interference of either a government or insurance entity.

[Tale]

I only have one question.

 

Why does Guard Dog hate America? :'(

[Gorgon]

Wrong. Didn't you read my example? Competition for business keeps prices low.

And denials for treatment high.

How do you figure? Without the interference of either a government or insurance entity.

The same market forces that keep insurance prices low mean that the companies have an enormous incentive to renege on their part of the agreement.

They all hire specialists who do nothing all day but make up plausible reasons why they should deny treatment. It's the same with propperty insurance, except the investigators usually don't wind up causing serious injury or death. With denial of treatment that is a quite plausible outcome.

 

 

It's a fundamental flaw in the makeup of the system.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Gorgon