SiCKo by Micheal Moore

[WITHTEETH]

clicky

 

Its 2 hours long.

 

Tell me what you think.

I knew of the problem, but not the extent.

Edited June 27, 2007 by WITHTEETH

[Tale]

I once read that "Michael Moore is not the type of person to let the facts get in the way of a story." By that, the man meant that Michael Moore has a valid overall point, but his support and degree is exaggerated. There is a problem with the US healthcare, but it's not as bad as he wants it to be.

[taks]

yeah... his venture into the socialized health systems leaves out all the problems they face. people aren't rushing to cuba for their health care for a reason. moore picks the worst examples of things in the US, in all of his documentaries, and exemplifies these as the norm, when they are in fact, just the worst examples.

 

taks

[WITHTEETH]

I once read that "Michael Moore is not the type of person to let the facts get in the way of a story." By that, the man meant that Michael Moore has a valid overall point, but his support and degree is exaggerated. There is a problem with the US healthcare, but it's not as bad as he wants it to be.

I didn't notice any deceitful lies in the documentary. He is talking to real people with real problems. He is going to real countries asking people for their real opinions. What makes this documentary exaggerated?

[Tale]

I once read that "Michael Moore is not the type of person to let the facts get in the way of a story." By that, the man meant that Michael Moore has a valid overall point, but his support and degree is exaggerated. There is a problem with the US healthcare, but it's not as bad as he wants it to be.

I didn't notice any deceitful lies in the documentary. He is talking to real people with real problems. He is going to real countries asking people for their real opinions. What makes this documentary exaggerated?

The selection. If I were to go into the worst Ghettos of America, imagine the picture I could paint. Now imagine I go into the most affluent neighborhoods. He performs a selection bias.

 

I haven't seen this movie and am kind of curious as to how him visiting other countries can paint a picture of the US medical system, so I can't speak to this movie directly. However, that is how a bias can be presented using real situations.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Tale

[Walsingham]

I'm starting to think Moore is a putup job by the right wing. He takes valid arguments and undermines them with carnival debating tactics.

[theslug]

I hate how people have these preconceived notions about Moore and then totally discredit anything he has to say. Yes he is biased, yes he manipulates stories but the facts are still there, somewhere. The whole American system is morally bankrupt, insurance agencies and the government are corrupt (- opinion). The health care system is a business, where their main objective is to maximize profits instead of making their care the best and available to as many people as possible. American's pay when something goes wrong, sometimes a substantial amount. Canadians don't pay a cent (except in taxes, which is infinitely less than what most operations/therapy/drugs cost). Where is that wrong or biased or exaggerated? Is it a fluke that Canadians live 3 years longer than Americans? You are the ones who are being biased, and manipulative of the information. You're no better than Moore, neither am I but I'm more objective than anymore so go jump off a cliff.

[Gorgon]

Michael Moore is a superb agent provocateur. Why else would so many people waste their breath hating him. The factual errors of this documentaries, most of which have a rather heavy political slant, are nowhere near as rampant as people would have you believe, most of them are simply part and parcel of filmmaking. For instance people would rave that he uses stock footage of one meeting of the NRA a while back while the voice over is about another more recent one.

[Gorgon]

yeah... his venture into the socialized health systems leaves out all the problems they face. people aren't rushing to cuba for their health care for a reason. moore picks the worst examples of things in the US, in all of his documentaries, and exemplifies these as the norm, when they are in fact, just the worst examples.

 

taks

Maybe not, but they are rushing to Cuba for free medical and other degrees. For 'socialised'-if there is such a term- healthcare you need to be a rich country first.

About the only place you can still find it are in the surviving welfare states of northern europe where it enjoys widespread support among the population.

[Walsingham]

All I know is that I can see Moore making a point in a filmm which I agree with and he makes me want to switch sides. I'm English. I've been taught that if you want to make a political point forcefully the only done thing is to land a battalion of Irishmen dressed in red jackets on the recipient's house, and plant a flag in their ear.

[taks]

Maybe not, but they are rushing to Cuba for free medical and other degrees. For 'socialised'-if there is such a term- healthcare you need to be a rich country first.

cuba has socialized health care, and they are far from rich. their health care also sucks compared to the rest of the world. if anyone thinks the picture moore paints re the condition of cuban health care is even remotely accurate, i have a bridge in san francisco to sell them.

 

whether or not they are rushing there for degrees is immaterial to the point moore is making anyway, and i'd be willing to be those "free" degrees aren't getting them hired in the US or any other country that has a more advanced system.

 

About the only place you can still find it are in the surviving welfare states of northern europe where it enjoys widespread support among the population.

of course the people like it. they don't know anything else and it's "free" as far as they're concerned. never mind that the wealthy that actually pay the taxes for it hate it.

 

taks

[taks]

uh, and the term "socialized" means "provided by the government."

 

taks

[Walsingham]

On the topic of state subsidized/free healthcare I could be dead three times over without it, and would certainly be worse off.

 

I might also point out that state run healthcare is the only kind that has a vested interest in curing you with simple treatments. I don't think there can be much coincidence that the UK is leading in several areas of heart and cancer treatment, while the US only provides new drugs.

[Gorgon]

My hats off to the guy in the film who name dropped Moore and this documentary and got this ensurance company to pay for implants for is deaf daugher, even though Moore had never even heard of him.

 

Briliant.

[taks]

On the topic of state subsidized/free healthcare I could be dead three times over without it, and would certainly be worse off.

you don't know that. contrary to popular belief, people are not dying in droves in the US.

 

I might also point out that state run healthcare is the only kind that has a vested interest in curing you with simple treatments. I don't think there can be much coincidence that the UK is leading in several areas of heart and cancer treatment, while the US only provides new drugs.

and exactly where did you hear that?

 

keep in mind, however, that the US has a pretty big state sponsored health care system as well. those that can afford it avoid it like the plague, however, and the fraud perpetrated on the system is ridiculous.

 

taks

[Gorgon]

It's pretty obvious that HMOs are in business to make money, and that actual treatment for their customers is written off as loss, just as any settlement is a loss for any other type of ensurance carrrier, this is why they employ detectives and try any and all legal means to avoid it.

 

A state sponsored system has an overall vested interest in returning people to heath, while at the same time not having an incentive to weasel out of their promises.

[Guard Dog]

To be honest I know very little about this subject. But I do have two points to make. In 1995 Hillary Clinton was put in charge of a team of bean counters, career bureaucrats, lawyers, and political neophytes (not a single doctor or health care professional) and they worked for a year in secret to come up with a revamp plan for the US health care system. Their solution was for the government to seize control of 1/7 to the US economy and take it over like the Soviets rolling into Prague. The American people loved the idea so much we threw the democrats out of office in 1994.

 

I realize the health care system is not perfect but having the government take it over is just not the answer. Have any of you ever been to a VA hospital and compared it to a pay-as-you-go private hospital? Trust me, you do not want this.

[Gorgon]

Well, my personal experience with our system has been quite good, a couple of years ago I broke my arm, I walked into the nearest hospital and got an exray, a consult and cast the same day and was sent on my way. No charge.

 

Later on my father got cancer and was admitted urgently several times, when it became clear that it was terminal, the hospital sent a bed, a wheelchair a physical therapist and nurse to ease the burden on us who were with him in his last months.

 

We do have problems with waiting lists for operations, but our government has just earmarked a considerable increase on healthcare spending to adress just this problem. If something is seen to be seriously awry with our healthcare, the people blame the government and they are compelled to act

[Guard Dog]

Where the heck are you from Gorgon? I just realized I did not know.

[Gorgon]

Denmark

[WITHTEETH]

Guard dog, Micheal Moore goes over what your talking about, not in great lengths though.

Edited June 27, 2007 by WITHTEETH

[WITHTEETH]

Denmark

So Gorgon, how is your experience living with universal health care in Scandinavia? Is it horrible, are you all soviets? How long is the wait, what is the mentality in the hospitals, how much are prescriptions, what are the pros and cons?

[Enoch]

I haven't seen any Moore films, but based on their portrayal in the media generally, I tend to agree with Wals that he does more harm than good to the progressive policies he champions.

 

On health care generally, I have always been flummoxed by the staggering inefficiency of health care in the U.S. Every physician's office I've been to has at least 2 or 3 staff members whose only job is dealing with the various insurance companies. These kind of overhead expenses inflate prices dramatically. HMOs, which are essentially doctor's offices that are run by one particular insurance company, avoid some of this, but the quality of care stinks because the doctors are under heavy pressure from their bosses to deal with stuff as quickly as possible. And don't get me started on marketing costs.

 

 

@ GD: Of course private hospitals are nicer than government ones. They overcharge. They get away with overcharging because of the moral hazard problem wherein the person making the decision on what level of service to purchase is not the person who will bear the direct burden of paying for it. That is, if I know that my private insurer will cover my costs, I don't have any incentive to constrain my purchases, and vendors don't have any incentive to compete on price. (They also overcharge paying customers because ERs are forced by law to treat anyone who walks in the door, even when it's pretty clear that this person has no means of paying them. This essentially places the burden of providing health care for many poorer people on hospitals, who pass this cost on to their other customers. This is one reason why hospital owners are beginning to come around to the idea of more government involvement in the system.)

 

So government facilities stink because there is no competition forcing them to increase their quality of service, and private hospitals can be nice, but are monstrously expensive because they have little real competition on price. There has got to be a way to mitigate the flaws in one or the other to make the system better.

[Aram]

Michael Moore is a superb agent provocateur. Why else would so many people waste their breath hating him.

 

So how do you feel about Jack Thompson and the gaybashing guy?

[theslug]

Why don't people just watch the film before they come in with all this nonesense. I mean you can say what you want about Moore but I mean when he walks into multiple hospitals in other countries and not one single person is paying a dime, (in England they freakin pay YOU if you don't have transportation) and hospitals where people only wait 10-20 minutes if it's really busy, and also sponsor programs that are just straight ridiculous. House call doctors, unlimited sick time, long maternal leaves, a moving day off, honeymoon vacation, all of this paid for by the gov and employer, and these countries are just as or even more productive than America, thats the proof. There is no spin, no manipulation, no fraud in those, so what are you even talking about? There is no way to refute those facts. The health care system in America is abominable, its rated 37 in the world right above Cuba. Kind of like our education system, right behind Madagascar. America is just a melting pot of horribly sick jokes.