Are you disappointed with Obsidian?

[roshan]

Instead of making deep pc rpgs like bg2, torment and fallout, Obsidian has instead decided to go the console route. Even NWN2 played more like a console game than any of the aforementioned deep pc rpgs. While I am not disappointed because Obsidian is making console games, Obsidian doesnt seem to have any plans to make any deep rpgs in the future. Are you disappointed by this?

[Tale]

I don't consider NWN2 even remotely a console RPG. The depth you're talking about was the product of a generation, not platform. No game since BG2 has had that depth and NWN2 is considered the deepest since that time.

 

Why that time is gone, I wish I knew. Is it the increasing development costs? Rise in piracy? Changes in gamer culture/opinion? Probably all of the above and then some.

 

In short, there's nothing to be dissapointed by.

Edited March 25, 2007 by Tale

[Guard Dog]

Too soon to tell. Both of their titles have been good. Not stunning, but solid. As for the state of RPGs today, that is another topic entirely. I would imagine many devs would agree. If they could get together and make the kind of game they want to make using their own imaginations to come up with the IP, I'd bet we would be impressed. But the investors who underwrite the cost of development do not play computer games so they do not know good from bad. They know safe and risky. And any dev will tell you, putting a fresh IP on the market is risky and with a development and marketing costs running near seven digits these days, no one wants to assume the risk. That is also why dev companies prefer making console games when they can. No compatability issues, ready made market, and I understand it is all around easier (meaning faster) to churn them out.

 

Once Obsidian funds and makes their own IP, then we'll be able to judge them. Another big title or two and we'll see. So far, so good.

[Draikin]

At first, I thought they needed some time to build their new studio so I didn't mind that they released an unfinished product without even trying to innovate. I expected more for NWN2, sure it was rushed but how could you explain the camera and the AI worse than the 6 years old IE games ?

 

Signing a contract with SEGA about an Alien game was too much: SEGA is dying (or already dead), all their games are bombing, it's pretty much like working for Interplay again.

[kumquatq3]

Too soon to tell. Both of their titles have been good. Not stunning, but solid.

 

I'm sorry, while there was things to like about it, K2 was FAR from solid.

[Tale]

Too soon to tell. Both of their titles have been good. Not stunning, but solid.

 

I'm sorry, while there was things to like about it, K2 was FAR from solid.

And K1 wouldn't run without crashing before a patch.

[Xard]

Once Obsidian funds and makes their own IP, then we'll be able to judge them. Another big title or two and we'll see. So far, so good.

 

I agree.

 

KotOR 2 was decent and apart from performance issues NWN2 is quite awesome. It does, however, have its problems.

 

So far OE has made two quality games, one suffering from rushing and other from sloppy coding ( I can't imagine other reason for it being such resource pig. ).

 

Another question is what makes crpg "deep". Is it huge size, complex rules system, more freedom (ie. no forced companions and you can kill everyone. ) or what? What defines crpg "deep"?

[Oerwinde]

Instead of making deep pc rpgs like bg2, torment and fallout, Obsidian has instead decided to go the console route. Even NWN2 played more like a console game than any of the aforementioned deep pc rpgs. While I am not disappointed because Obsidian is making console games, Obsidian doesnt seem to have any plans to make any deep rpgs in the future. Are you disappointed by this?

 

If Obsidian achieves Bioware "every game is a hit" status, then they can make the deep games. Until then, they have to make what sells. I'm not disappointed in them putting as much effort to add depth as they can into this generations style of RPGs.

[Diamond]

No, absolutely not. I'm not disappointed. I liked NWN2 and it was pretty much what I expected.

 

 

Keep in mind that I have only played NWN2 and not KOTOR2, as I hate Star Wars.

[GreasyDogMeat]

The only thing that disapointed me about KoTOR 2 was the botched/missing ending. Nearly everything else I loved more than KoTOR 1.

 

I was much more disapointed by NWN 2. It feels way behind the times technologically. Where are the ragdoll physics, face creation and better interior creation? It also runs pretty poorly compared to many games that look superior and have more going on in the background. The only massive improvement over NWN 1 I see is the impressive ability to make outdoor areas that look realistic. I think even that could use some improvement.

 

While I am very disapointed with NWN 2 from a tech standpoint, I very much enjoyed the single player story and I'm enjoying working with the toolset.

 

The PC RPG is in a pretty depressing state with both Bioware and Bethesda focusing on consoles first and the PC second. NWN 2 is the most PC RPG I've seen in years and as the original poster mentioned, even it has a number of irritating console implementations. I'm all for making games more user accesible, but that doesn't mean the rules of a system need to be dumbed down as well. Games in general seem to be getting easier and easier, no permanent deaths, invincibility modes without the requirement of cheats etc. I'm frankly disapointed with the entire gaming scene shifting more towards console style.

 

It seems like the only RPGs getting a real PC focus are stinking MMORPGs, which as you probably guessed from the 'stinking' part, I hate with a passion.

 

I really hope Obsidian doesn't go the way of Troika. I really enjoy their writing style and have enjoyed their stories and characters more than the originals their games are sequels to. They have yet to make a Temple of Elemental Evil disaster or a Baldur's Gate 2 breakthrough imho.

 

I do have a feeling with some optimizations and improvements with expansions NWN 2 will really start to shine.

Edited March 25, 2007 by GreasyDogMeat

[karka]

KOTOR 2 is a deep game. It has deep characters and a deep story. My only disappointment about it, aside being un-finished of course, is the lack of Star Wars feeling. It was too dark for a Star Wars game imo. That's why I prefer the first one over the second.

 

I think it was too early for a second NWN game. First one had and still has lots of potential. They(Atari), tried to fix something that already works. I think, the last game which needs prettier visuals but lesser content is the NWN. NWN was the one of the few succesful games Atari had and they tried to use this success to milk the gamers.

 

And SEGA is doing well and they are far from dying. In fact, it's the opposite. They have agreements with great western developers like Obisidan, Petroglyph, Monolith, Gearbox, The Creative Assembly, Sports Interactive. And the latest games like Armored Core 4, Virtua Fighter 5 are very succesful in eastern markets. If one publisher is dying, it's Atari not SEGA.

Edited March 25, 2007 by karka

[Guard Dog]

I was much more disapointed by NWN 2. It feels way behind the times technologically. Where are the ragdoll physics, face creation and better interior creation? It also runs pretty poorly compared to many games that look superior and have more going on in the background. The only massive improvement over NWN 1 I see is the impressive ability to make outdoor areas that look realistic. I think even that could use some improvement.

 

That is an unfair criticism. In NWN2 they were using the Aurora engine which is about seven years old now and really predated the neat physics implementations of modern games. All the did to Aurora was rework the graphics component to go with higher poly counts and generally make it look better. If they had to code a new engine, they would still be working on it.

 

The PC RPG is in a pretty depressing state with both Bioware and Bethesda focusing on consoles first and the PC second. NWN 2 is the most PC RPG I've seen in years and as the original poster mentioned, even it has a number of irritating console implementations. I'm all for making games more user accesible, but that doesn't mean the rules of a system need to be dumbed down as well. Games in general seem to be getting easier and easier, no permanent deaths, invincibility modes without the requirement of cheats etc. I'm frankly disapointed with the entire gaming scene shifting more towards console style.

 

I completely agree with you here. Comparing Oblivion to Morrowind it is easy to see the game was dumbed down for the console kiddies. The sad truth is, I think we will never see games like Torment, FO, or BG again. About the only people who want it are the ones old enough to remember what they were like. It is easier and safer to just churn out clones of shooter games, clones of GTA, and mindless RPGs like Oblivion. Or to continue in tried and true franchises like Star Wars, NWN & D&D, and Aliens. You cannot fault Obsidian or any developer for doing what is safe in the current market. I just wish the realities were different.

 

As for KOTOR2, they know what was screwed up about it. And why.

[karka]

I can't understand why people accuse console games for being easy. Yes, there are easier ones. But also there are hard ones. Just play Ninja Gaiden or SMT. Plus, while I like the feature, I don't know a better dumbing-down than to be able to save the game anywhere and anytime you want.

 

Was Fallout a hard game? Hardly.

Edited March 25, 2007 by karka

[GreasyDogMeat]

'That is an unfair criticism. In NWN2 they were using the Aurora engine which is about seven years old now and really predated the neat physics implementations of modern games. All the did to Aurora was rework the graphics component to go with higher poly counts and generally make it look better. If they had to code a new engine, they would still be working on it.'

 

Well, the upcoming game the Witcher also uses the Aurora engine and features ragdoll physics, characters who can jump and many other enhancements to the engine. I really don't see how it is unfair to criticize NWN 2 for missing these features when another game using the same engine does have them.

 

Also, why are so many of the neat little tech features of NWN 1 missing?

 

-Hair and clothing that bounced.

-Grass that sways out of the way as you walk through it. In every aurora game but NWN 2.

-Arrows that would stick to the environment and enemies. How cool was it to shoot an arrow through a goblin's head? In NWN 2 the arrows just pop.

-Characters that follow you with their heads and make actual eye contact. In NWN 1 if I am playing a human and I talk to a halfling they look up at me. In NWN 2 they talk to my crotch while I talk to the empty space above their heads.

-Water that would slosh as you walked through it. Remains completly static in NWN 2.

-The falling leaves, even if they were 2d, seem to be absent from NWN 2.

-Gibs that would bounce down inclines as well as blood that stained on the ground. NWN 2 just has puffs. Yeah the gibs were unrealistic but they were a cool option you could enable.

-More varied combat animations where characters would clash with each other and sparks would fly. In NWN it seems like it is just a basic swing, and an occasional regrip of the weapon.

-Other little special effects and tech features that I can't remember at the moment that aren't in NWN 2.

 

I love NWN 2 for it's story telling and improved toolset power, but like I said, I am very disapointed in it from a tech stand point. Basically it feels like we've recieved a better looking game with a massive cost of visual effects that brought NWN 1 to life. NWN 2 just feels more static, like you can't interact with the world as much.

 

I would absolutly LOVE to see the above features added in a patch or expansion, but it is just very disapointing to see these features completly vanish in a sequel despite, as you mentioned, it using the same engine.

 

While I can somewhat understand why the bouncy hair and clothing may have been removed, I see absolutly no reason for the removal of things like swaying grass, sloshing water or heads that turn to follow you as you walk by. Even if some of the features did have a hit on performance they could have an options toggle to turn them on or off.

 

It would really make my day if someone came along and said 'Hey, GreasyDogMeat, what the heck are you talking about? Those features are already in the game! You just need to activate y and press x and doodle with z in the ini file' but I just haven't seen any of these cool special effects from NWN 1 in NWN 2.

Edited March 25, 2007 by GreasyDogMeat

[Xard]

Yeah, saying that console games are easier than PC games is crap.

 

And I'm still waiting for Definitive Definition Of Deep RPG

[Guard Dog]

Also, why are so many of the neat little tech features of NWN 1 missing?

 

-Hair and clothing that bounced.

-Grass that sways out of the way as you walk through it. In every aurora game but NWN 2.

-Arrows that would stick to the environment and enemies. How cool was it to shoot an arrow through a goblin's head? In NWN 2 the arrows just pop.

-Characters that follow you with their heads, as well as the main character.

-Water that would slosh as you walked through it. Remains completly static in NWN 2.

-The falling leaves, even if they were 2d, seem to be absent from NWN 2.

-Gibs that would bounce down inclines as well as blood that stained on the ground. NWN 2 just has puffs. Yeah the gibs were unrealistic but they were a cool option you could enable.

-More varied combat animations where characters would clash with each other and sparks would fly. In NWN it seems like it is just a basic swing, and an occasional regrip of the weapon.

-Other little special effects and tech features that I can't remember at the moment that aren't in NWN 2.

 

 

Hmmmm.... Good points.

[Slowtrain]

I can't blame developers for making games that they hope will sell/rent and make them money.

 

imo, the problem is that the frustration level of many gamers is very low. Is that different from the way it was 20 years ago? I don't know.

 

I was over at the STALKER forums and there are a ton of complaints about the game and almost all of them are that the game is too hard because I can't instantly be awesome. Most of the people posting those threads haven't even played more than 20 - 30 minutes into the game before deciding it is too hard and therefore sucks.

 

I do find it quite depressing, personally, since part of the fun of a game is learnign how to meet the challenge the game presents. Sure, sometimes things are frustrating, but frustration in things we do is a part of life. Generally when we stick to something and work with it for a while, we get better and what was once really hard and confusing isn't so much so anymore.

[Guard Dog]

I did not mean current games are dumbed down to be easier, they are dumbed down to be less complex. Just for example in Morrowind you could specialize in a certain type of weapon (like short sword, or longsword, etc). In Oblivion they lump everything into one category "blade". In Morrowind some factions contradicted othres, you could not do this AND that, it was this OR that. None of these things make it deep, but complexity increases interest, for me anyway.

 

As for deep RPG, I don't know what makes a game deep, that will be in the eye of the beholder. My answer would be a little moral ambiguity, where the line between good and evil are a little blurry. Giving the a good PC a chance to do an evil act to serve a greater good for example. Nowadays, what passes for good and evil is a Saturday moning cartoon version. NWN was bad about that. KOTOR2 did it somewhat well, Torment did it better.

 

Another thing that makes a game deeper is a antagonist you can really identify with. Like Irenicus in BG2, Fujill and Trias in PS:T. Most villians in todays games are cartoonish.

[Slowtrain]

I think a better example of problematic game design in Oblivion is not so much that long and short blade were combined, but that Speechcraft is so poorly implemented and totally useless as well.

 

The argument for folding the blade skills together was to reduce the number of skills in the game and make them all meaningful. Well, blade is defintely meaningful. However, given the way Oblivion was designed, with its focus on combat rather than dialogue, it would have made more sense to keep the blade skills seperate and fold speechcraft and mercantile together. SHort blade goes into the stealth category, long blade into the combat category and you still keep your nice symmtry of seven skills per category.

 

My point being that I don't think that the blade issue is a good example of dumbing down; I do think its a good example of short sighted and not very good game design, however.

[Sand]

As long as they make fun games on my platform of choice, the PC, I am not disappointed. So far Obsidian has made 2 fun games.

 

A game is either fun or not fun. KotOR2 and NWN2 are both fun.

[karka]

A game is either fun or not fun.

 

Now, this is dumbing down

[Sand]

I am in the process of simplification.

[Volourn]

"No game since BG2 has had that depth and NWN2 is considered the deepest since that time."

 

Bah. The NWN series is dmuch deeper,a nd complex than either BG. It's no contest. Just take a fighter in either BG, and comapre it to a fighter in either NWN1. In BG, all they can do in a fight is basiclaly swing their wepaon. In NWN, they bhave TONS of options. A fighter in BG isn';t much different than another figther outside of which wepaon they use. A fighter in NWN can be vastly different than another fighter.

 

Anyways, to the topic. I'm mildy dissapointed only ebcause I had high hopes of Obsidian making awesome games. Instead, what I got was satisfactoryily fun games that in general were no better than the originals. Sequels should ALWAYS be vastly superior to the original.

 

Fun games, though, and that's cool.

[Morgoth]

I'm disappointed with Obsidian by the fact that they now exist several years but I haven't seen a true "Obsidian game" (i.e. own IP) from them yet. This is certainly understandable from a business standpoint, but it makes this place incredibly boring and uninteresting. Not to mention the lack of developer interaction here. I hope all that long waiting for the first really big project (PG I think) really pays of. If that is gonna be another lame high-fantasy "Orcs-Mages-Elves" clicky-clicky game, I'll feel profoundly disappointed.

[Azure79]

Not in the least.

 

I enjoyed Knights 2 and NWN 2, both not their endings. I'm looking forward to a plane hopping adventure for a NWN2 expansion. Here's hoping.