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Sideous beaten or not?


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when i watched Ep 3 i initialy thought that being as sideous has such a strong force connection he was near invincible... thus it led me to believe that, during his battle wth mace windu, he allowed his saber to be knocked out his hand because he knew anakin was on his way

 

Evidence to support this[/b]

 

- He beat yoda who in most respects is a better jedi than mace windu

- He broke the glass during the fight on purpose, perhaps showing that he had forseen mace being thrown out

- Anakin happens to arrive at exactly the same time he is disarmed

 

Maybe this is a question that only Lucas himself can answer but i want to know what u guys think.....

 

 

 

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yay my first post

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Can we get a duh check? :thumbsup:

 

The real question did he plan his own defeat at the end of Episode 6 as a means to to further cripple the galaxy against the Youzhon Vong invasion (msp).

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Can we get a duh check? :thumbsup:

 

The real question did he plan his own defeat at the end of Episode 6 as a means to to further cripple the galaxy against the Youzhon Vong invasion (msp).

No, because that would be epic dumb.

"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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If you read the novel of Revenge of the Sith it is made clear that Mace Windu was using the Vapaad lightsabre form. Vapaad can channel the darkside to some degree without the Jedi becoming a dark Jedi-this is why Sidious's force lightning was reflected back at him. The form was also so new (invented by Mace) that Sidious had no answer to it. All the other Jedi who faced Sidious were using forms that Sidious knew well, so he could take advantage of their weaknesses.

 

- He beat yoda who in most respects is a better jedi than mace windu
Being a better Jedi does not mean that Yoda was a better lightsabre combantant than Mace Windu. You could in fact take the same argument and use it to say that Mace was better than Yoda-after all Mace would have won his fight if Anakin hadn't intervened, while Yoda would still have lost. (There is also the implication, in the book anyway, that Yoda realised he wasn't going to win and allowed himself to 'loose' so he could escape).

 

- He broke the glass during the fight on purpose, perhaps showing that he had forseen mace being thrown out

 

The glass wasn't broken on purpose as far as I can tell, it was broken while Sidious was parrying a blow from Mace.

 

- Anakin happens to arrive at exactly the same time he is disarmed

 

Thats called fate :thumbsup: Sidious might have been aware that Anakin was close by, but I find it hard to belive that he would deliberatly throw his weapon out the window on the off chance that Anakin would help him.

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Who cares about lightsaber forms?

 

He probabally did forsee it, as it was pretty coincidental that these things where mentioned, especially the disarmament, also, the whole thing of the force lightning which is being turned against Sideous was also a plot, probabally to use as an excuse that the jedi had done it, when quite easily I'm sure Sideious could have stopped it.

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Yeah, Sidious lost on purpose. He definately had the skill to beat Windu (though it would not have been guarenteed), but he wouldn't have accomplished his goals if he did.

 

Yoda didn't really lose against Sidious, the fight ended in a tie. You could definately see Sidious being very surprised, maybe even scared, when Yoda pushed the lightning back at him.

Now you might say that Yoda lost, because he didn't accomplish his goals, but he wasn't beaten by Sidious. he gave up, because he was all the way down the senate. It would have been hard enough for him to get back up with Sidious throughing things at him, but there were quite a few clonetroopers closing in as well. There is no way that he could have fought against the Emperor and an army at the same time.

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It was all part of his plan to "lose" so he could win Anakin over to his side.

 

Definately. If anybody has been watching the movies, Anakin-Palpatine moments are those that Palpatine butters Anakin up, saying things like, "You are becoming even stronger than Yoda." Palpatine nailed it down to Windu so that it was only them three; if he had killed Windu, Anakin would have struck him down. Since he didn't, it looked like Windu was attacking the Chancellor while powerless. All Anakin is is a pawn, played from day one.

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It was all part of his plan to "lose" so he could win Anakin over to his side.

 

thats wot i thought

 

According to the director commentory by George Lucas himself on ROTS (its on DVD), Sidious lost on purpose to Mace Windu.

 

So, I'll trust George Lucas.

 

**** i have that dvd and i havent watched it yet and now i have wasted ur time lol....

I'm not so bad once u learn to worship me

 

 

"Please noble jedis, not in the faces" --- Chiss the Bartender

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If only Anakin had stopped to talk to that Gizka salesman on his way to the Chancellor's office...

DAWUSS

 

 

Dawes ain't too bright. Hitting rock bottom is when you leave 2 tickets on the dash of your car, leave it unlocked hoping someone will steal them & when you come back, there are 4 tickets on your dashboard.
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I seem to remember a line about "There are no coincidences, there is the force". A handy thing to blame for odd "coincidences" in these movies. I bet allot of directors are jealous.

 

Yeah, Kreia says that, but she's old and senile. And there actually were no coincidences, it was all manipulation on Palpatine's part.

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"Great intelligence usually goes hand in hand with great stupdity."

 

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If palp could have beaten Mace outright then he would have. Mace was the best swordsman the jedi had. Palpatine could not beat him directly so he schemed to undermine a powerful if vulnerable young jedi (yah skill points) and then last long enough to allow him to intervene and fall to the darkside. If anikin had not fallen Mace would have killed palpatine and the council would not have fallen, leaving the known universe in much better shape to deal with the Yuuzhan Vong. Or perhaps it would merely have moved things further down the line with a new set of pawns for the whim of the force.

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It's a really tough question to answer. At some points, I believed that Palpatine was tanking it, example: When he was saying "I'm too weak", and "Please don't kill me". Also, when he devilishly smiled when Windu and Skywalker debated a trial. But then, Mace pulls the saber up and the Emporer looked terrified. Was it because he was powerless or was it absolute shock at possibly being wrong because Anakin hadn't saved him yet. If I had to go one way or the other, I would say that the Emporer threw the fight because it was all part of his elaborate conversion plan of Skywalker.

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  • 2 weeks later...
when i watched Ep 3 i initialy thought that being as sideous has such a strong force connection he was near invincible... thus it led me to believe that, during his battle wth mace windu, he allowed his saber to be knocked out his hand because he knew anakin was on his way

 

There is some facts within Force theory that some of it's practitioners tend to be sensitive to events that happen in the future. Darth Sidious was not near invincible, though...

 

- He beat yoda who in most respects is a better jedi than mace windu

 

Mace is the better fighter. Yoda may, however, be stronger and wiser in the Force. Being a better Jedi does not mean you will win a light saber contest.

 

- He broke the glass during the fight on purpose, perhaps showing that he had forseen mace being thrown out

 

I can accept some of this, but let's face it...he was getting his butt kicked handily. Now...was he just fortunate, knowing that Anakin would most like be along (85% true)...or did he take advantage of Mace's arrogance and confidence and put the Jedi Master into a false sense of security, especially given that Anakin had not yet fallen.

 

- Anakin happens to arrive at exactly the same time he is disarmed

 

This really doesn't prove anything. Sidious could've called him, foreseeing his arrest by Mace and the others.

 

Maybe this is a question that only Lucas himself can answer but i want to know what u guys think.....

 

George wouldn't know even if you asked him.

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If you read the novel of Revenge of the Sith it is made clear that Mace Windu was using the Vapaad lightsabre form. Vapaad can channel the darkside to some degree without the Jedi becoming a dark Jedi-this is why Sidious's force lightning was reflected back at him. The form was also so new (invented by Mace) that Sidious had no answer to it. All the other Jedi who faced Sidious were using forms that Sidious knew well, so he could take advantage of their weaknesses.

 

Vaapad is also known by it's "Sith" form of Juyo. Darth Maul was a Juyo practitioner, so Sidious must've had some knowledge - even if the style was in a slightly different form.

 

And Vaapad doesn't just chennel dark side energy...it's practitioner harnesses dark kernels within them to give them power and strength. The practitioner then becomes a reflection of who they are fighting, or are able to reflect back any powers or abilities used against them. It is much like Aikido or Aiki Jitsu, in that you use your opponent's strength against him - though Vaapad is a much more aggressive style than Aikido.

 

Thats called fate ;) Sidious might have been aware that Anakin was close by, but I find it hard to belive that he would deliberatly throw his weapon out the window on the off chance that Anakin would help him.

 

Hmmmm...he had to know Anakin was coming. He had to know, force powers or not, that the Jedi council saw him as a threat. And he had spies to tell him when his arrest was imminent. It would not be hard to call for Anakin to arrive near or around the time of his imminent. Palpatine, after all, had his light saber on him...something he normally wouldn't of.

 

I think the truth falls inbetween the fact that Sidious knew exactly what he was doing, but like any good plan it rarely survives first contact. Sidious HAD to know his pupil would betray the Jedi order, if for no other reason than to uphold the ideals of the very Order he was betraying. And he had to know that Mace was coming for him. Where things went to crap is when Sidious got a taste of his own medicine - but he also had the advantage.

 

He knew that Anakin would fall. Or he would not have summoned him.

 

In Anakin's fall, Anakin was conflicted against his earlier decision in killing Count Dooku. Defending an unarmed prisoner, and possibly making amends for his lack of judgment against Dooku, the situation was dire enough that Anakin saw what he felt amounted to an innocent person, or an unarmed prisoner, about to be killed by a Jedi Master. The Jedi's moral code is very specific: defend the innocent - those unable to defend themselves.

 

So, I could very easily see Sidious throwing his weapon away to give the apperance of defencelessness.

 

But that's just conjecture.

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