The Escapist: The Rise and Fall of Troika

[Volourn]

SS is QA IIRC. You know, that super duper uncomparable, unimaginable, horrible, awful, most difficult job in the world... according to you, at least.... :joy:

Edited December 30, 2006 by Volourn

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

SS is QA IIRC. You know, that super duper uncomparin, unimaginable, horrible, awful, most difficult job in the world... according to you, at least.... :joy:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

QA isn't a hard job at all, you just get treated like crap most of the time... Not that that's a good idea QA is very valueable to games development, but it's also the easiest job going, and is hardly as difficult as design or software engineering hence the terrible wage they recieve, not that QA is a bad place to work.

[Gromnir]

as somebody who works for bethesda, regardless of the capacity, ss is no doubt able to observe first-hand the inner workings of a MAJOR game developer.

 

if we is gonna subscribe to the whole Appeal to Authority stuff, then so far it looks like ss holds the trump card in this thread.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 30, 2006 by Gromnir

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

as somebody who works for bethesda, regardless of the capacity, ss is no doubt able to observe first-hand the inner workings of a MAJOR game developer. 

 

if we is gonna subscribe to the whole Appeal to Authority stuff, then so far it looks like ss holds the trump card in this thread.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know what I know from own experience, and through contacts in the industry, Core Design, Team 17, Smaller Developers such as Creative North.

 

This is not to mention the people who also have input at canalside, having had a vast wealth of industry experience, as artists and coders, now sat in roles as lecturers and producers.

 

Meaning no disrespect to SS, none at all, but QA is as low as you can get, and it is hardly demanding of the same skillset as other areas.

 

QA can make a good game awesome, but every other department actually makes the product... Not that I don't value his input and perspective, (I do realise what your getting at), at the end othe day games development is one of those dream jobs, it's not like I wake up everyday and think "MY GODS, I HATE MY JOB", it's a job you can love, and that makes it easier in alot of ways.

[Shadowstrider]

So basically, "every job except mine is easy?"

 

Get over thine self.

[alanschu]

That's always the case.

 

When I worked in a restaurant, it was particularly hilarious. The dishwasher bitched about how he was alone in the dishpit, and had to deal with dirty dishes and whiny waitresses saying they need clean cups or whatever.

 

Waitresses hated dealing with people, and even though they only had a small part of the restaurant, they had to deal with customers multiple times (the cooks just had to deal with each customer once), had to put up with annoying people, and had to do damage control whenever anything goes wrong. And if anything went wrong, it was taken out of their tip.

 

Cooks had to work in the hot kitchen, put up with annoying waitresses who think the world centers around them and their tables, cook food for virtually every table, in addition to take out and delivery orders. They had to deal with waitresses allowing bizarre customer requests, as well as allowing customers to order something that was on the menu 12 years prior to the most senior person on the staff. And if someone screws up an order, they have to try to deal with making a rush order on top of everything else.

 

 

As someone who was a cook, and then a manager, it was all rather entertaining.

[thepixiesrock]

I use to be a host, and I have to agree about the bitchy waitresses.

[Shadowstrider]

Not the hot ones, right?

[Gromnir]

"I know what I know from own experience, and through contacts in the industry, Core Design, Team 17, Smaller Developers such as Creative North."

 

and Gromnir knows 'bout relative job difficulty of game developers from having spoken with developers at bioware and black isle and click and cave dog and a half dozen other places... a few of which no longer exist. with few exceptions, game developers will bemoan how tough their job is, right up until they start talking 'bout how tough other jobs they has had.

 

*chuckle*

 

you know what you know...

 

ss knows what he knows and Gromnir knows what he knows.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[thepixiesrock]

Not the hot ones, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, the one hot one was one too. Actually, there was another hot one that wasn't a jerk, but she got fired. I miss her. But the hot hostesses aren't.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

So basically, "every job except mine is easy?"

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LMFAO No! :crazy:

 

You can't really compare our jobs.

Edited December 31, 2006 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

"I know what I know from own experience, and through contacts in the industry, Core Design, Team 17, Smaller Developers such as Creative North."

 

and Gromnir knows 'bout relative job difficulty of game developers from having spoken with developers at bioware and black isle and click and cave dog and a half dozen other places... a few of which no longer exist.  with few exceptions, game developers will bemoan how tough their job is, right up until they start talking 'bout how tough other jobs they has had.

 

*chuckle*

 

you know what you know...

 

ss knows what he knows and Gromnir knows what he knows. 

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I meant in RL... But Whatever grommy.

[metadigital]

I think the pissing contest about "who's job is tougher" is a pointless tangent.

 

It behooves a good development team to enlist the expertise of specialists in all the relevant fields, including (but not limited to) the entire business cycle (delivery, marketing, sales, customer support and after sales service).

 

Whether Troika were good at developing novel games is kinda besides the point; they weren't good at getting their ideas to the people.

[Walsingham]

I honestly can't believe that this group, as gamers, is arguing in favour of the 'games as cheeseburgers' mentality. Are we seriously saying that all we want nice glitzy potboilers that tell us nothing and amount to nothing more than an electronic MacSpamwich?

 

I _know_ we enjoy novelty and bold things when they succeed, but if you think there's a sure-fire formula for making anything that is novel and bold then you're huffing modelling glue. There's a direct tension between governance and creativity in my experience. There is also a state of diminishing returns that affects excellence measured against time/effort.

 

In my opinion, which has been unaffected by any of the arguments I've been catching up on, is that Troika were aiming for that 99% product. But producers/publishers were wanting their 80% product for 20% effort. Which might be excusable if Troika had not been perfectly clear what kind of outfit they were. Moreover in my opinion it is clear, given the half finished but high quality elements in the games they did produce that given more resources the results would have been classics.

 

But no-one's still reading this thread, so I really only say this because it helps me clarify my philosophy.

[metadigital]

Still, it's not surprising that the childish notion of creativity is better than business acumen (and not equal, as it of course must be in such an game-making enterprise), considering that most forumites are more familiar with the creative side and playing games, rather than sales and management.

[Walsingham]

But Meta, that's what surprises me. I'd have figured they'd be in favour of the creative thing, rather than sounding like forty year old project managers from Surbiton.

 

I'm not saying, incidentaly, that all games publishers should be expected to foster 'artistic' games. I just think that if we want them we have to support them, and to a certain extent barrack when potential is squandered.

[metadigital]

They should. But just as creatives don't get suits, there is an equal amount of misunderstanding vice versa.

 

There is a balance to strike, and letting the creatives run amok can sink a company pretty easily: how many times has Atari gone bankrupt and been bought out? How many developers die before getting to market? STALKER may just get there, for a recent example, but will Prey help oil the 3dRealms machine to give us Duke Nukem Forever? The future is not set ...

 

The sad truth is that EA is successful, because they are following the Hollywood model. (Hollywood has become merely a content provider: the biggest studio bosses are nothing but middle managers in big content companies now: Time Warner, Sony, etc.) Business strives for predictable returns, which is naturally antithetical to the risk-taking blue-skies novel thinking of creativity. And it works, to a certain extent: just look at the endless sports franchises that merely change the team rosters and update the possibly the jersey colours.

 

It's a balance. The seeds of destruction lie in both directions. As with all successful projects, it needs experts to communicate expertly with disparate and unfamiliar experts to work together.

[Volourn]

"given the half finished but high quality elements"

 

The problem is that some of the elements in Troika games ar ejust plain crap. Not half finished, or unpolished. Just plain, old fashion crap.

 

Atari could have given Troika another 2 years on TOEE, for example, and it still would have had a crap story, horrible npcs, worthless role-playing (though it *did* have role-playing), etc., etc...

[Gromnir]

"I know what I know from own experience, and through contacts in the industry, Core Design, Team 17, Smaller Developers such as Creative North."

 

and Gromnir knows 'bout relative job difficulty of game developers from having spoken with developers at bioware and black isle and click and cave dog and a half dozen other places... a few of which no longer exist.  with few exceptions, game developers will bemoan how tough their job is, right up until they start talking 'bout how tough other jobs they has had.

 

*chuckle*

 

you know what you know...

 

ss knows what he knows and Gromnir knows what he knows. 

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I meant in RL... But Whatever grommy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

HA!

 

such insight... what made you choose not to respond with, "I know you are, but what am I?" perhaps a mother joke were your next option?

 

you know better than everybody else simply 'cause you you know. lord only knows why more people ain't overwhelmed by your reasoned discourse.

 

 

 

"I'm not saying, incidentaly, that all games publishers should be expected to foster 'artistic' games. I just think that if we want them we have to support them, and to a certain extent barrack when potential is squandered."

 

even if you were interested in having a publisher foster artistic merit at expense of quarterly report, we not know what that gots to do with troika. arcanum weren't exactly breaking new grounds from gameplay or story pov... and toee? HA! there were some interview over at ign in which troikanauts explained goals of toee... before relationship with atari went into the crapper. toee were 'posed to be first in line of a series of quick development crpgs that replicated old d&d modules... and it seems like tim and the troika guys never did play d&d modules 'cause they simply tried to recreate toee exact, and any dm knows that even a highly developed mod likes toee were simply a framework. regardless, from start, troika were aware of the limited expectations for toee... and those expectations weren't exactly of the New Art type, eh?

 

never played bloodlines, so maybe in spite of reviews that game were approaching art, but as far as we can tell, the first two troika games were not exactly attempts to breaks new ground or makes players weep 'cause of depth o' tim's vision. seemed likes some pretty mediocre plebian entertainment goals.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 31, 2006 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

"given the half finished but high quality elements"

 

The problem is that some of the elements in Troika games ar ejust plain crap. Not half finished, or unpolished. Just plain, old fashion crap.

 

Atari could have given Troika another 2 years on TOEE, for example, and it still would have had a crap story, horrible npcs, worthless role-playing (though it *did* have role-playing), etc., etc...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

the quality of troika games, from fan perspective, has always been based on what tim promised in early previews, not on what ended up in games. am not sure why other developers weren't able to benefit from fan loyalty the way timmy did, but tim were judged not based 'pon what he delivered, but based on what he promised... tim were a great developer 'cause the stuff he said were gonna be in toee sounded great. sure, the alignemnt-based openings in toee were lame, and the way he manipulated d&d skills to offer rp options were terrible, but his vision sounded kewl, no?

 

see, you gotta pretend that tim coulda' actually delivered 'pon his promises... if he had just gotten a little reasonable publisher support.

 

3 opportunities. 3 different publishers spent lots of money to screw troika projects and lose money for everybody. gotta believe that there were some complex conspiracy 'gainst timmy that resulted in multiple unrelated publishers spending millions o' dollars in an attempt to tarnish tim/troika legacy, but that seems kinda far-fetched to Gromnir. still, many tim fans seems convinced that tim gots raw deal. go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

HA!

 

such insight... what made you choose not to respond with, "I know you are, but what am I?"  perhaps a mother joke were your next option?

 

you know better than everybody else simply 'cause you you know.  lord only knows why more people ain't overwhelmed by your reasoned discourse.

 

You can listen to what I have learnt and take on board what I say or not, it changes nothing, there is no "correct" opinion of this matter.

 

Far as I am concerned, this conversation is over as your opinion is clearly made, that's irrelivant of if I believe it right or wrong.

 

Some people are not worth the time or effort to converse with.

[metadigital]

HA!

 

such insight... what made you choose not to respond with, "I know you are, but what am I?"  perhaps a mother joke were your next option?

 

you know better than everybody else simply 'cause you you know.  lord only knows why more people ain't overwhelmed by your reasoned discourse.

You can listen to what I have learnt and take on board what I say or not, it changes nothing, there is no "correct" opinion of this matter.

 

Far as I am concerned, this conversation is over as your opinion is clearly made, [and it's] irrel[e]vant [whether] I believe it right or wrong.

 

Some people are not worth the time or effort to converse with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only thing that has been decided in the previous exchange is that your ego is bigger than you can manage.

[Volourn]

Someone should look in the mirror.

[Hurlshort]

This is such a sweet thread

[Walsingham]

Grom, if troika really didn't make novel stuff then obviously my argument falls down. In this instance. 'Though i believe it still holds true in general terms.

 

However, i don't think seeing three publishers make the same decision means it was a conpsiracy. I'm saying it's quite common. Particularly in engineering. Look at MRAV/Boxer.