suicide pacts

[Walsingham]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4071805.stm

 

This strikes me as sub-optimal on many levels. Thoughts?

[Hurlshort]

Wow...I'm going to go ahead and put this up as a tally FOR religion. See, every topic on the forums of late has either been FOR or AGAINST religion. At least religion makes suicide a carnal sin.

[Tale]

Wow...I'm going to go ahead and put this up as a tally FOR religion.  See, every topic on the forums of late has either been FOR or AGAINST religion.  At least religion makes suicide a carnal sin.

Not all religion. The Japanese do have religion, y'know.

 

Shintoism actually encourages it in some situations and some suspect that Christianity encourages suicide in Japanese culture through guilt.

Edited December 24, 2006 by Tale

[Mortis Nai]

There was a phenomenon a couple of years back, where people were opening up Suicide websites and Forums for people to hook up and die together, some of them linked to various Suicide Books and information on how to do it. However, such sites are now illegal and are hunted down and closed as quickly as possible.

 

If your really curious about the subject, check out Jisatsu saakuru (2002) also known as "Suicide Club" by director Sion Sono.

 

While the film itself dissolves and devolves at the end, and its not exactly the "Best" movie ever, it does have some interesting scenes and provides a glimpse at the real problem.

 

That problem, is individual identity and self worth.

 

In the West, the individual is everything. people strive to step up and not be one of the masses of people, we loath sheep and praise individuals, so much so that even our advertising is filled with oxymoron's designed to play upon our need to be individuals and yet feel apart of something.

 

"Be unique, be an individual, drive Harley Davidson, the Number one best selling motorcycle in America."

 

In Japan, the individual is nothing, if you are not apart of the collective group then your life is void of meaning and significance. One must uphold both family and seocial tradition, duty and loyalty which involves a great deal of guilt and "peer preassure."

Edited December 24, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Calax]

Wow...I'm going to go ahead and put this up as a tally FOR religion.  See, every topic on the forums of late has either been FOR or AGAINST religion.  At least religion makes suicide a carnal sin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It also makes Carnal Knowledge without a ball and chain a sin of epic proportions... thats a Bad Thing

[Hurlshort]

Actually carnal knowledge isn't too bad as long as you ask for forgiveness. The problem with suicide is that you can't go through confession if you do it right. Unless you end up a zombie, but that's an entirely different thread.

 

So thumbs up for the sleeping around and such.

[Morgoth]

Poor people. Japanese society is not compatible with individualism.

 

They should have converted to the christendom! Because then God would have taken care of them and everything would be good again in the world!

Edited December 24, 2006 by Morgoth

[Gorgon]

We all wither and die sooner or later, if you want to then go ahead and check out, just be sure its not for the wrong reasons; attention, a cry for help, an angry stab at someone you are emotionally involved with etc.

 

If you can't muster the will to do it yourself you aren't serious though.

 

I know of someone who rented a hotel room and brougth what they use in a slaugtherhouse; an electic gun that drives a metal splint through the forhead.

 

Just before impact though, he held back sligthly, now he has a silly looking depression in his skull.

 

If I wanted to off myself i'd sign up for skydiving lessons and sabotage the auto release on my chute.

Edited December 24, 2006 by Gorgon

[Morgoth]

Not if you believe in God! Don't be that shortsighted Gorgon, it leads into corruption!

[~Di]

Wow...I'm going to go ahead and put this up as a tally FOR religion.  See, every topic on the forums of late has either been FOR or AGAINST religion.  At least religion makes suicide a carnal sin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's right! I mean, heaven forbid (literally!) a human being be trusted to make decisions about his/her own body and own life. Why, people will begin to think they have the right to make decisions for themselves or some such rot. Thank you, religion, for divesting us of such quaint notions!

[Pop]

The thing is, if you're a big believer in free choice and freedom and such and so forth, you can't really tell anyone who wants to kill themselves that they shouldn't. Not even if they're depressed over some **** like the break-up of a relationship that was bad for them in the first place, not even if they harm others in so doing (take a depressed single mother with 4 kids who will permanently scar and impoversh her children if she kills herself). Their bodies, their choice.

 

The problem is that line of thinking cheapens life, it becomes a commodity of less importance than the choice that ends it. so we have to decide if life is really valuable, or whether or not the choice to end one's life is reasonable. I'm not sure why anybody brought up the East in relation to this, as choice is never a factor, it's all about imperatives and obligations (and before we go off on some tangent on the nobility of the East, we have to recognize that communal worldviews can also foster perverse and cruel conclusions about the way things are, the "roles" of the lower classes and women among them.)

 

And it should be pointed out that one our favourite bogieman, the Church, is far from alone in its condemnation of suicide. Kant, the father of humanist ethics, reasonably deduced that killing oneself is a violation of reason, because in his calculus all people have desires, and to desire a state in which one cannot have desire is a contradiction, and therefore to be discouraged.

 

Personally, I've thought about it a time or two, like everybody else, and I've concluded that strength means living through ****, and that a true desire to murder oneself is indicative of such an overwhelming cowardice and ignorance, that they refuse to deal with their own problems, and run from them in a terminal way. Thus I see no reason to fetishize the practice.

[Walsingham]

This reminded me of the film 'Sonatine' by Micheline Lanctot. And you'll notice I said sub-optimal not bad or evil. I just think 'wow, you're getting help, but in all the wrong ways'.

[metadigital]

Not sure why a site like these are "help, but in all the wrong ways" ... certainly if someone is going to commit suicide then this will only lessen the trauma; if they aren't then talking to others should help alleviate the urge.

The thing is, if you're a big believer in free choice and freedom and such and so forth, you can't really tell anyone who wants to kill themselves that they shouldn't. Not even if they're depressed over some **** like the break-up of a relationship that was bad for them in the first place, not even if they harm others in so doing (take a depressed single mother with 4 kids who will permanently scar and impoversh her children if she kills herself). Their bodies, their choice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The rights of the individual end where their actions start to impinge on others ... that is the eternal struggle of government of a free society.

 

It gets really tricky when trying to allow for compos mentis, though ... at what point does a mood become an illness ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4071805.stm

 

This strikes me as sub-optimal on many levels. Thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"I'm 23 and want to die. I can travel anywhere."

 

I shouldn't laugh, but it just made me think of someone else's advert that might stipulate the need for a local production, as long-distance travel would be a definite turn-off. :D

"There are some vicious sites which really encourage people to die, and when you get in a group there's a momentum which makes it hard to stop - people become irrational.

I'd like to see some evidence of that: I doubt it really is that simple when push comes to shove and one stares into the abyss of their own mortality ...

[Atreides]

The thing is, if you're a big believer in free choice and freedom and such and so forth, you can't really tell anyone who wants to kill themselves that they shouldn't.

I think they say it's a "very bad idea" but there's certainly nothing stopping you.

 

I'd like to see some evidence of that: I doubt it really is that simple when push comes to shove and one stares into the abyss of their own mortality ...

I watched an animu where a group met up and went to a remote island to plunge off a cliff. They were holding hands and stuff and walking towards the cliff, so I guess in some cases it's harder to back out as a group though individuals may have doubts. Peer pressure, maybe?

 

Btw they did back out in the end because one guy convinced the rest that their cases weren't that bad after all.

[Colrom]

I spent some time in Japan so I know a little bit about their society.

 

It is possible for a person in Japan to be put or to put themselves in a situation in which are publically disrespected and ridiculed and yet are not allowed to correct or to leave . Suicide is the solution that is expected. :angry: Usually they just step in front of a train. :'(

 

It is very sad.

[Krookie]

But they step in front of the train so that their families can sue the train station for some money.

 

I'm serious.

[kirottu]

Yay! Let

[Gorgon]

[metadigital]

But they step in front of the train so that their families can sue the train station for some money.

 

I'm serious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No.

[jaguars4ever]

Suicide doesn't kill people. Really fast, invisible ninjas kill people!

[Hell Kitty]

Personally, I've thought about it a time or two, like everybody else, and I've concluded that strength means living through ****, and that a true desire to murder oneself is indicative of such an overwhelming cowardice and ignorance, that they refuse to deal with their own problems, and run from them in a terminal way.

 

Suicide isn't a result of running away from a problem, so much as an inability to deal with a feeling. I'd say people who feel suicidal want to deal with their problems but feel it is an impossible task. They believe the misery they are suffering will never end and therefore life is no longer worth living.

 

People who are suicidal are already in a weakened mental state and accusing them of cowardice or selfishness ("you'll hurt those you leave behind") is more likely to make the situation worse.

 

I've often heard people claim that suicide is something everyone has thought of at some point or another, but do they really, or are they simple having an emo style tantrum without ever having any intention of killing themselves, and they just assume that's what it means to feel suicidal. Kind of like saying "everyone feels a bit depressed now and then" when referring to clinical depression.

Edited December 25, 2006 by Hell Kitty

[Kaftan Barlast]

When Hemingway killed himself, they got him to be declared not mentally aware and responsible for his actions so they could give him the whole Catholic thing. Tricksy dat, although I dont think very many people who kill themselves are at their full mental capacity

[Hurlshort]

I only think about killing myself when I'm being lazy. Like "Man, I don't want to go into work right now, if I drive my car off that cliff, I'll totally get out of it."

 

But then I realize that my chances of survival are too great, and I don't deal well with pain.

[Tale]

I only think about killing myself when I'm being lazy.  Like "Man, I don't want to go into work right now, if I drive my car off that cliff, I'll totally get out of it."

 

But then I realize that my chances of survival are too great, and I don't deal well with pain.

I always think it'd be just cool to die. Suicide, whatever. Survival's not a problem, I deal with pain very well, though not too good with disfiguration. My problem is that I don't like breaking stuff. If I crash my car, my poor car. If I jump in front of another car, then they sue and it all sucks.

[Hurlshort]

Yeah, it's pretty fun to think about how people would react towards your death. It may seem morbid, but I like to think that there will be a good amount of mourning.