50 reasons why.. part two

[Riftworm]

[quote name='

[Llyranor]

[quote name='

[J.E. Sawyer]

[quote name='

[Tigranes]

IMO there are some settings that are 'essential' - such as Point Mip-Map (everything is grainy and moves around hurting ze eyes otherwise), and Medium/High textures. They don't really affect framerate at all. Pity I can't turn Dynamic Lighting off.

 

But an option to turn off floating combat messages and have them in the chat box instead would have been very nice. Aesthetically I think NWN2 looks really really good even in battles - until there's all sorts of 56 and CRITICAL HIT! and whatever flying around. I'd rather have them in the chatbox and enlarge the chatbox, BG-style.

[17243_1556103691]

No, the lack of metrics was the culprit.  Given no framework within which we could responsibly work (on changing technology, no less), the responsible course of action was to err on the side of simplicity.  Justin's effects were tweaked on an individual basis after (primarily) Joe Bulock stress-tested them in the smash-hit module Qara Hates Bear (and others).  Since Justin's optimizations, the renderer itself has been optimized a great deal.

 

I'm sure that "people" (whether developers or endusers) could experiment with visual effects in the visual effects editor until they found something more personally satisfactory if they wanted.  Some people might go overboard and what one person considers "acceptable performance" might not fly with others but sure, you can do it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, that was a definate plus to include in the toolset btw. Hopefully some of poorly designed spells can be changed by a CEP type team where including the changes is more global than just one server for online play.

[Riftworm]

Hey J, any of that 50 list you agree with?

[Deraldin]

IMO there are some settings that are 'essential' - such as Point Mip-Map (everything is grainy and moves around hurting ze eyes otherwise), and Medium/High textures. They don't really affect framerate at all. Pity I can't turn Dynamic Lighting off.

 

But an option to turn off floating combat messages and have them in the chat box instead would have been very nice. Aesthetically I think NWN2 looks really really good even in battles - until there's all sorts of 56 and CRITICAL HIT! and whatever flying around. I'd rather have them in the chatbox and enlarge the chatbox, BG-style.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All that information is already in the chatbox, so all you need is a floaty text toggle.

[Tigranes]

That's true. It would really have been nice, I've been wanting it since NWN1. It may be that I prefer 2D to 3D still, but I think BG2 battles look just as good as NWN2 ones, just in a different way.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Hey J, any of that 50 list you agree with?

Sure, but I don't think it's necessary for me to either confirm or condemn them on an individual basis. I definitely think there's a lot of stuff we could have done better on NWN2, but I also think it's a pretty good game and platform for building.

 

With 20/20 hindsight I could list off a lot of things that I would have chosen to do differently, but that's not particularly helpful or insightful.

[Gromnir]

Hey J, any of that 50 list you agree with?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, but I don't think it's necessary for me to either confirm or condemn them on an individual basis. I definitely think there's a lot of stuff we could have done better on NWN2, but I also think it's a pretty good game and platform for building.

 

With 20/20 hindsight I could list off a lot of things that I would have chosen to do differently, but that's not particularly helpful or insightful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

keep in mind what is title of list. he ain't asking if there is 50 things you woulda' liked to have done different, but rather is claiming that the 50 things listed were done better in nwn.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Riftworm]

Hey J, any of that 50 list you agree with?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, but I don't think it's necessary for me to either confirm or condemn them on an individual basis. I definitely think there's a lot of stuff we could have done better on NWN2, but I also think it's a pretty good game and platform for building.

 

With 20/20 hindsight I could list off a lot of things that I would have chosen to do differently, but that's not particularly helpful or insightful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How about underwear and bare skin? Vertex weighting, straw hair, 80's Round shoulder pad hysteria, and 1 mm graphite sheet weapons? You did notice this stuiff right? Remember NWN1 you had an uber array of authentic looking medieval weapons that looked "solid"? You miss that along with us right? :ph34r:

Edited November 26, 2006 by Riftworm

[Gromnir]

"Remember NWN1 you had an uber array of authentic looking medieval weapons"

 

*chuckle*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Vaclav]

"Remember NWN1 you had an uber array of authentic looking medieval weapons"

 

*chuckle*

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

why is funny bros? original neverwinter nights has many of the better weapons than on this newer one

[Tigranes]

I don't actually care two bits about 'authenticity'. I'll cry out for that when I'm playing Total War and they have the wrong type of axe for the Varangian Guards or something, but hell, it's not like you really zoom in a lot in a game like NWN2 anyway. The flail was pretty weak I noticed, and they're all a bit simple, but I really don't mind.

 

That said, I thought NWN1 weapons looked pretty crappy. Not speaking on an authenticity basis, but the pixel amounts, the artistic quality, the way it just looks in the game - they were none too impressive.

 

That is funny bros.

[Gromnir]

"Remember NWN1 you had an uber array of authentic looking medieval weapons"

 

*chuckle*

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

why is funny bros? original neverwinter nights has many of the better weapons than on this newer one

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

better v. worse is subjective. we leave to you to decide which you thinks looks better.

 

that being said, there were nothing authentic looking 'bout arms and armour in nwn1... period. we not got a problem with non-authentic looking armour and weapons in a fantasy game, but the folks clamoring for such stuff rarely seems to know what the heck they is talking 'bout.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tel Aviv]

Hey J, any of that 50 list you agree with?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, but I don't think it's necessary for me to either confirm or condemn them on an individual basis. I definitely think there's a lot of stuff we could have done better on NWN2, but I also think it's a pretty good game and platform for building.

 

With 20/20 hindsight I could list off a lot of things that I would have chosen to do differently, but that's not particularly helpful or insightful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How about underwear and bare skin? Vertex weighting, straw hair, 80's Round shoulder pad hysteria, and 1 mm graphite sheet weapons? You did notice this stuiff right? Remember NWN1 you had an uber array of authentic looking medieval weapons that looked "solid"? You miss that along with us right? :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These are all quibbling, eye of the beholder type details though, aren't they?

[Dark_Raven]

"Remember NWN1 you had an uber array of authentic looking medieval weapons"

 

*chuckle*

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

why is funny bros? original neverwinter nights has many of the better weapons than on this newer one

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

better v. worse is subjective. we leave to you to decide which you thinks looks better.

 

that being said, there were nothing authentic looking 'bout arms and armour in nwn1... period. we not got a problem with non-authentic looking armour and weapons in a fantasy game, but the folks clamoring for such stuff rarely seems to know what the heck they is talking 'bout.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

[Vaclav]

"Remember NWN1 you had an uber array of authentic looking medieval weapons"

 

*chuckle*

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

why is funny bros? original neverwinter nights has many of the better weapons than on this newer one

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

better v. worse is subjective. we leave to you to decide which you thinks looks better.

 

that being said, there were nothing authentic looking 'bout arms and armour in nwn1... period. we not got a problem with non-authentic looking armour and weapons in a fantasy game, but the folks clamoring for such stuff rarely seems to know what the heck they is talking 'bout.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

i am having a disagree with you on this one. they having on original neverwinter nights display many armor types as look shiny and metallic represent the fourth century roman field and full plate, and has celtic butted skeet chain mails. there is having none on this new game. this armor looks dull and not represent any century plate is no good

[Riftworm]

I don't actually care two bits about 'authenticity'. I'll cry out for that when I'm playing Total War and they have the wrong type of axe for the Varangian Guards or something, but hell, it's not like you really zoom in a lot in a game like NWN2 anyway. The flail was pretty weak I noticed, and they're all a bit simple, but I really don't mind.

 

That said, I thought NWN1 weapons looked pretty crappy. Not speaking on an authenticity basis, but the pixel amounts, the artistic quality, the way it just looks in the game - they were none too impressive.

 

That is funny bros.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The modeling looks uninspired for the NWN2 weapons system in general IMO. And though you may feel they "looked crappy" in NWN1, they looked closer to the real MCcoy than they do now.

 

You may not care, many of the obsidian diehard fan types seem apathetic towards details of the game that aren't easily overlooked on the bioware forums though. These details add up, 1 at a time they all have an impact and contribute profoundly to how immersive the gaming experience is.

 

These attention to details contribute to a standard that transcends you and arguing it on these forums and carries with it a repuation for the gaming developers.

[J.E. Sawyer]

How about underwear and bare skin? Vertex weighting, straw hair,  80's Round shoulder pad hysteria, and 1 mm graphite sheet weapons? You did notice this stuiff right?  Remember NWN1 you had an uber array of authentic looking medieval weapons that looked "solid"?  You miss that along with us right?  :ph34r:

WotC is very particular about the following things:

 

* Amount of skin shown on human-like races (humans, elves, halflings, etc.)

* Head appearances (and creature appearances in general).

* Weapon appearances.

* Clothing and armor appearances.

 

They started to become stricter on these subjects starting with BG: Dark Alliance 2 and ToEE. I'm actually fairly surprised the warlock outfits were approved, because almost every other outfit needed to cover from neck to ankles and wrists. I think Aribeth had a neat design, but the word "realistic" doesn't exactly leap into my head when I look at it. I think more flexibility in the types of outfits available to characters would be nice, but I don't think NWN1's characters were inherently better because they could show more skin. Some of the NWN weapons did look like traditional "Medieval" weapons, but some didn't. My brain didn't explode when I saw them in NWN1 and it doesn't explode when I see them in NWN2, either.

 

I think our hair does look bad and I don't think (m)any Obsidian artists would disagree. I think there are two main culprits for this: 1) 1-bit alpha looks terrible 2) using a de-saturated base texture with multiplicative color tints is never going to look as nice as individual hair textures (or potentially a different tinting system).

 

I think NWN2's hair looks a lot worse than Oblivion's hair, but I think NWN1 had pretty crummy hair too. Better for its time, but still crummy.

[Cantousent]

[quote name='

[Tigranes]

You may not care, many of the obsidian diehard fan types seem apathetic towards details of the game that aren't easily overlooked on the bioware forums though. These details add up, 1 at a time they all have an impact and contribute profoundly to how immersive the gaming experience is.

 

Apparently these same people who look at "details" that "make up the game" were okay with having a retarded non-plot which was written by a thirteen year old who's read LOTR and Harry Potter, having dialogue options that didn't matter, having the "Freedom" to choose in which order to collect 4 sticks of power that were acquired in exactly the same way, have shallow stupid NPCs, have the game pursue an artistic style where everything is made of brightly coloured cartoon blocks, elevation is less detailed than Lego Blocks and ...

 

Really. If we were just arguing, say, weapons don't look very good, or some spell vfx don't look very good, I would agree with you hundred per cent. You'll see that I criticise NWN2 on a lot of individual points, such as forcing companions. But that is individual criticism: taking them all together and saying these little things kill NWN2, or make it inferior to NWN1, or show Obsidian's incompetence, or whatever you actually want to say, is something else altogether.

 

NWN2 has lots of niggling mistakes, just like any other big game. But personally, I think it's way way better than NWN1 or any other CRPG in recent years because comparatively it has better story, characters, a nice Keep system, etc. I also like the interface, artistic direction, toolset, and so forth. You could argue differently; but while I woudl respect your opinion I would think it foolhardy to project that opinion as the representatives of an unknown mass just because of spell vfx.

[Riftworm]

How about underwear and bare skin? Vertex weighting, straw hair,  80's Round shoulder pad hysteria, and 1 mm graphite sheet weapons? You did notice this stuiff right?  Remember NWN1 you had an uber array of authentic looking medieval weapons that looked "solid"?  You miss that along with us right?  :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WotC is very particular about the following things:

 

* Amount of skin shown on human-like races (humans, elves, halflings, etc.)

* Head appearances (and creature appearances in general).

* Weapon appearances.

* Clothing and armor appearances.

 

They started to become stricter on these subjects starting with BG: Dark Alliance 2 and ToEE. I'm actually fairly surprised the warlock outfits were approved, because almost every other outfit needed to cover from neck to ankles and wrists. I think Aribeth had a neat design, but the word "realistic" doesn't exactly leap into my head when I look at it. I think more flexibility in the types of outfits available to characters would be nice, but I don't think NWN1's characters were inherently better because they could show more skin. Some of the NWN weapons did look like traditional "Medieval" weapons, but some didn't. My brain didn't explode when I saw them in NWN1 and it doesn't explode when I see them in NWN2, either.

 

I think our hair does look bad and I don't think (m)any Obsidian artists would disagree. I think there are two main culprits for this: 1) 1-bit alpha looks terrible 2) using a de-saturated base texture with multiplicative color tints is never going to look as nice as individual hair textures (or potentially a different tinting system).

 

I think NWN2's hair looks a lot worse than Oblivion's hair, but I think NWN1 had pretty crummy hair too. Better for its time, but still crummy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Perhaps you misunderstood me a bit on armor and showing skin. these are two seperate beefs of mine. The armor all having round shoulder pads, just doesn't look or seem very realistic. I'm sure if I comberd over WotC illustrations I would find a much greater variety in shoulder pads than NWN2 offers with the round shoulder pad mania it has now.

 

The "skin" I don;t want to see with the armor, but like in NWN1, you could change your armor or remove it and you had an actual body underneath with underwear. That makes sense. But in NWN2 you remove your armor and you are fully clad..??

No offense but that's just corny any way you cut it, and seems like a rush job to avoid more work on body models.

 

With hair, I agree NWN1 hair was pretty bad, no worse than the straw it is now, but it had one advantage - vertex weighting. It moved as you moved. Now it doesn't even do that. It's just straw.

 

With weapons, and armor, I simply think they did a better job modeling those, and while I appreciate the new look of the rapier, it doesn't look "solid" or metallic. Lets assume that you are 100% on weapon appearances according to 3.5 ed and all are canon authentic. They don;t look metallic or solid. Even the shields look as thin as a pizza box. The blades look like paper, and have no dimension or angles. Certainly WotC didn'thandcuff you guys there.

[Tigranes]

But in NWN2 you remove your armor and you are fully clad..??

 

Sawyer just explained this.

 

With hair, I agree NWN1 hair was pretty bad, no worse than the straw it is now, but it had one advantage - vertex weighting. It moved as you moved. Now it doesn't even do that. It's just straw.

 

Yes it does... unless you mean every part of the hair, in which case, you're saying all the hair moved in NWN1? *blink*

 

With weapons, and armor, I simply think they did a better job modeling those

 

Once again, so you liked the cartoony art as long as it was in authentic proportion and concept design?

[Riftworm]

But in NWN2 you remove your armor and you are fully clad..??

 

Sawyer just explained this.

 

With hair, I agree NWN1 hair was pretty bad, no worse than the straw it is now, but it had one advantage - vertex weighting. It moved as you moved. Now it doesn't even do that. It's just straw.

 

Yes it does... unless you mean every part of the hair, in which case, you're saying all the hair moved in NWN1? *blink*

 

With weapons, and armor, I simply think they did a better job modeling those

 

Once again, so you liked the cartoony art as long as it was in authentic proportion and concept design?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

NWN2's weps looks more "cartoony" to me than NWN1's. Theya re dull in appearnce (texture) and the models themselves don;t look weighty enough to do damage. In light of his explanation that they had to look like illustrations and not actual armor or weapons that might explain why. I'm starting to appreciate the freedom that Bioware excercised in making the original with some of their own designs. In NWN2 It just looks like everyone is forced to wear the same hideous armor models and weild the same clay swords. Nothing appears solid or metallic. No clanging of metal that you expect to see in a game of this genre.