Planescape Torment reference in NWN2

[Volourn]

Yes, but as much as I like Z, she is obvious a 'rip off' of D.

[deganawida]

Yes, but as much as I like Z, she is obvious a 'rip off' of D.

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Rip-off or tribute? I haven't run into her yet, so I can't answer. Just curious.

[Volourn]

A little of both. The constant string of 'truth' that comes out of her moluth is very irritating and is certainly a rip off. Other than that, she's a cool character. A tribute is the sort fo thing that started this thread - her reference to Dak'kon.

[deganawida]

A little of both. The constant string of 'truth' that comes out of her moluth is very irritating and is certainly a rip off. Other than that, she's a cool character. A tribute is the sort fo thing that started this thread - her reference to Dak'kon.

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I skipped the rest of the first post and several subsequent posts after realizing there were some spoilers in it.

[Volourn]

Oops. Sorry. I assumed since you were still reading the thread; you knew what the main topic was about. Urgh.

Edited November 17, 2006 by Volourn

[deganawida]

Oops. Sorry. I assumed since you were still reading the thread; you knew what the main topic was about. Urgh.

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No prob It's a minor spoiler, to be sure, and I knew that I was risking some spoilage when I ventured to step foot in the thread. I read the first couple of lines of the first post and then skipped down to avoid deep spoilers.

[alanschu]

So Avellone is ripping off his own character? Awesome.

[Volourn]

Sure. Just like BIO often rip offs certain story elements from their various games. Look at Aribeth, and that silly Jedi Female in KOTOR. They are essentially the same character.

 

 

I'd be shocked if anyone didn't think Dak'kon as soona sthey first heard Z speak - unless they hadn't played PST, of course.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Character from a bizarre foreign culture has speech patterns and philosophical ideals similar to a similar character from the same bizarre foreign culture.

 

You're correct that there's nothing in source material that outlines how various gith folk talk. Chris invented that pattern because it helps make githyanki more than just weird looking dudes who happen to be from another plane.

[alanschu]

Sure. Just like BIO often rip offs certain story elements from their various games. Look at Aribeth, and that silly Jedi Female in KOTOR.  They are essentially the same character.

 

 

I'd be shocked if anyone didn't think Dak'kon as soona sthey first heard Z speak - unless they hadn't played PST, of course.

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Of course, Dak'kon is a Githerzai, just liek Z is. Kind of like when I see someone speaking French, I think of French people.

[Volourn]

Yeah, when exchange posts with Alanshu; it automatically makes me think of a specifc Albertan.

 

It's oen bthinkt to hink of, say, a group of people; but a specific person? Not really. Face it, Z is definitely made based around Dak'kon. Her speech patterns - which are NOT githazeri based - are taken from Dak'kon. That's why people auto think of him.

[alanschu]

I'd think more about different people, if I had encountered more Githerzai.

 

Since Dak'kon is the only other one that I am familiar with, it would make sense that I'd be reminded of him. He's the only basis for comparison that I know of.

 

Looking at it deeper, it seems as though they are both big believers in the teachings of Zerthimon. So the connection makes even more sense.

[Darth Barth]

I think that Dakkon also said a decent amount of other things as well. With Zhjaeve its nothing except knowing, knowing, knowing.

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Might have something to do with her being not only a Zerth but a cleric. Priests tend to talk about certain things more than followers.

[roshan]

Maybe shes just a cleric because of the rules change from 2E to 3E. WOTC might have decided that Zerths would be clerics instead of fighter/mages. Or maybe Obsidian needed to put a cleric into the game. And you could also be right.

[Volourn]

Ot maybe like Mr. Sawyer and I pointed out - same writer using the same style that worked the first time. Nothing wrong with that really either. Almost all writers go back to what worked well the first time.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Ot maybe like Mr. Sawyer and I pointed out - same writer using the same style that worked the first time. Nothing wrong with that really either. Almost all writers go back to what worked well the first time.

That's not really what I was suggesting. I was saying that Chris made a choice that githzerai spoke in a certain way. The affectation is supposed to be a distinctive part of that group, rare as its members are.

 

In parts of America that were heavily settled by Germans, it is not uncommon to hear people say things like "Come here, once." or "Are you coming with?" Though most of these speakers are now third or fourth generation Americans, they continue to use grammatical constructions that are part of the German language. Specifically, using the English word "once" in place of "mal" to make a polite imperative or placing the preposition "with" at the end of the sentence as one would when asking, "Kommst Du mit?" Another good example is a question like, "Is he here or no?" English speakers should say, "or not?" but in German would say, "oder nein?" -- becoming "or no?" from some German-Americans.

 

Dak'kon and Zhjaeve have similar types of affectations because they're both githzerai. I don't think it's really fair to say that they're the same character or to suggest that he "fell back" on Dak'kon's style. The easy way to portray characters from other cultures is to act like they speak similarly to everyone else -- which is pretty weak, I think. EDIT: Characters that have been separated from gith culture for longer periods of time may obviously vary, but Dak'kon and Zhjaeve are both pretty hardcore githzerai, being Zerthimon superfans and all.

[Tigranes]

I think the point raised was that only Chris chooses to have githzerai speak in this way. Still, the point wouldn't stand - Chris made a conscious decision, then acted consistently.

 

In fact, the only logically valid accusation to level would be to say that Chris 'fell back' on a previous prototype by choosing to create another Githzerai character. And I think he can be excused for that, even if I didn't find Zhjaeve nearly as good as Dak'kon.

[Pop]

In fact, the only logically valid accusation to level would be to say that Chris 'fell back' on a previous prototype by choosing to create another Githzerai character. And I think he can be excused for that, even if I didn't find Zhjaeve nearly as good as Dak'kon.

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I generally find the Gith races to be rather boring in the oddworld of Planescape (which strangely enough I also found to be rather boring), but MCA certainly knows his ****, and even if he didn't exactly "move forward" with Z as a character concept, she's still rather compelling in execution.

[Volourn]

I agree with that. I like Z.

[roshan]

I dont agree with anyone who is comparing Zhjaeve and Dakkon. In terms of the depth of the characters, their motivations and much more, there is absolutely no comparison between the two.

 

1. There is no logical, personal reason for why Zhjaeve wants to interfere in the conflict. She is simply just another goody two shoes who wants to help, just sticking her nose into where it doesnt belong. She has no personal motivation. Dakkon on the other hand had a perfectly good reason to accompany the nameless one. His lack of faith had destroyed him, it had led to the deaths of thousands. The practical incarnation saved his life and offered him a means of knowing himself once more, forcing dakkon into his service.

 

2. Zhjaeve just pledges herself into slavery and is perfectly happy to be your slave. Dakkon doesnt like being a slave, and the circle of zerthimon doesnt help him - on the outside, it seems he knows himself, but actually the circle has merely added to his confusion. He is tormented by his slavery, and he is tormented with doubt.

 

3. Beyond being some sort of "wise sage" through the dispensing of supposedly great advice by pointing out what is already very obvious through the utterance of stupid statements that rehash some features of Dakkons dialogue to extreme proportions, there is really nothing deeper to Zhjaeves personality. With Dakkon there are multiple layers to his personality that an interested player can explore. At first, he seems to be a believing Zerth, but later on you can find out that he is actually confused and doubtful about his beliefs and doesnt really have any clue about what he is talking about. You find out about him being your slave and about his torment. Dakkon was a very deep character.

 

4. Dakkon actually has a life story and a past, unlike Zhjaeve.

 

5. Unlike other NPCs like Grobnar, Zhjaeve doesnt even have any entertainment value and doesnt add to the fun factor of the game.

 

In short, Zhjaeve has no motivation, no realistic reason to accompany you, no personality and no entertainment value. She is the second worst NPC in the game next to Shandra. Other than these two, all the other characters in the game are at the very least half decent.

[mangueJOE]

I built the tower in my keep to a mage from Sigil. That is the only reference to Planescape that I recall besides that Gith in your group.

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Exactly, the mage there says he is a traveler of the planes and his home is sigil, ruled by the lady of pain. I was like

 

I miss The nameless one, morte and fall from grace so much. Think i'll have to play it again (w00t)

[jaguars4ever]

I dont agree with anyone who is comparing Zhjaeve and Dakkon. In terms of the depth of the characters, their motivations and much more, there is absolutely no comparison between the two.

 

1. There is no logical, personal reason for why Zhjaeve wants to interfere in the conflict. She is simply just another goody two shoes who wants to help, just sticking her nose into where it doesnt belong. She has no personal motivation. Dakkon on the other hand had a perfectly good reason to accompany the nameless one. His lack of faith had destroyed him, it had led to the deaths of thousands. The practical incarnation saved his life and offered him a means of knowing himself once more, forcing dakkon into his service.

 

2. Zhjaeve just pledges herself into slavery and is perfectly happy to be your slave.  Dakkon doesnt like being a slave, and the circle of zerthimon doesnt help him - on the outside, it seems he knows himself, but actually the circle has merely added to his confusion. He is tormented by his slavery, and he is tormented with doubt.

 

3. Beyond being some sort of "wise sage" through the dispensing of supposedly great advice by pointing out what is already very obvious through the utterance of stupid statements that rehash some features of Dakkons dialogue to extreme proportions, there is really nothing deeper to Zhjaeves personality. With Dakkon there are multiple layers to his personality that an interested player can explore. At first, he seems to be a believing Zerth, but later on you can find out that he is actually confused and doubtful about his beliefs and doesnt really have any clue about what he is talking about. You find out about him being your slave and about his torment. Dakkon was a very deep character.

 

4. Dakkon actually has a life story and a past, unlike Zhjaeve.

 

5. Unlike other NPCs like Grobnar, Zhjaeve doesnt even have any entertainment value and doesnt add to the fun factor of the game.

 

In short, Zhjaeve has no motivation, no realistic reason to accompany you, no personality and no entertainment value. She is the second worst NPC in the game next to Shandra. Other than these two, all the other characters in the game are at the very least half decent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with your analysis of Z, but I liked Shandra. I thought her character arc was great - much better than say, Neeshka who's character never really progressed in any fashion even after completing Lendon's quest. Shandra went from being a haughty isolationist who refused to depend on others, to a state of confusion and introspection as she apprenticed under you, to finally being a strong-willed and loyal heroine with her own sense of understanding about morality and self-sacrifice.

 

And that's not mentioning that she pretty became one of the best melee specialists in the group. In fact, after her loss post act 2 (combined with Kelghar being moked and by extension being screwed over), I had to change tactics as the only recognized go-to-guy was Casavir.

 

But yes, Z's philosophical overtures did come across as a shallow emulation of Dak'kon's. Way too much rambling on and on. She also lacked the underlying depth and motivation needed to enter the Shard Bearer's service and she essentially became his slave - something Zerths and Giths are supposed to take aversion to.