Volourn's Wowwy Journey With NWN2:Spoiler Edition

[aVENGER]

I decided to pump all my interest in Shandra.  I liked her better than Elanee.  Let me tell ya, I nearly cried myself to sleep last night over that bad choice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yup, whoever designed her character seemed to be playing way too much FF7. Her whole

sacrifice

sequence just screams "Aeris". "

 

Anyway, I liked her as well and there was really no valid reason why we couldn't

resurrect

her later on, given the high levels one can achieve in the game. Either

Zhjaeve

or that priest of Tyr in the keep church could have done it with ease.

[Pop]

I can live with the whole "dramatic death" thing, but like many other instances in which something like that happens (the betrayals at the end, the destruction of West Harbor) it's supposed to be a big deal, but it comes off as relatively unimportant.

 

NWN2 was doing very well with its forced party until Ammon Jerro. I mean, he murdered a member of your party, but when you take him to task about it the game practically points you to a big neon sign that says "FORGET ABOUT IT" because you "need" him (the web of purity is used only once to great effect, and it's not required to win) and sure enough, the game eventually makes it so that you're at a disadvantage to hold it against him. That really undermined the dramatic thrust of Shandra's murder.

 

Ammon Jerro's a fairly well-written character, but if NWN2 has a GOTO, it's him.

[Deraldin]

Ammon Jerro's a fairly well-written character, but if NWN2 has a GOTO, it's him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Perhaps in the I hate you, but I can't kick you out because you said I can't way. He's at least useful though unlike GOTO.

[Dark_Raven]

Bishop and Ammon = GOTO

I despise both of them. Whatever happen to the kick out option like we had in BG? I don't understand the devs here. Now I'm going to go on a rant. Go back and look at the BG series especially BG2. You have a winning formula there why the hell are we going backwards from it. NWN was pathetic when it came to npcs ("henchmen"). They were nothing more than pack mules with very little dialogue and you could only have one to travel with you. NWN had no romances and the story was quite dull. NWN2 improved over NWN. It has romances, which is still far below BG2 standards. We have interesting joinable npcs, more than one this time! The story is better this time. But still the devs need to get out of their office cubicles and see what the fans desire and learn from past game success and failures.

[Tigranes]

They are not the same as GOTO... in the sense of character. I love Bishop and while I'm ambivalent about Ammon, both of them were well written and were given effort adn time to make them "real" NPCs, if with dubious motivations for following the PC. GOTO had no motivation, no personality, no use and was a stupid stupid waste of time.

 

The thing is, I think Shandra was forced in your party for such a long time so that you would actually feel shock when she was killed. Aeris didn't need this, but then Aeris was very central to FF7's early story and came up all the time. Shandra is not like that - her character is a bystander, the person who waits until the Jerro blood is needed. So if I, say, just left her at the Flagon all the time, which story-wise I definitely could have done, it reallly would be overkill to have that dramatic death sequence.

 

Still, I disagree with the whole thing. The Fifth Ritual sequence was hacked up, artificial, deus ex machina and immersion-breaking, as I had commented last week or so; the Reaver scrolls should be usable by *everyone*. Information about the Dragon could have been garnered from Jerro's Haven, in his diary or libraries or something, taking Aldanon there. Or at least, Zhjaeve/Ammon shouldn't need to be forfced into the party. The story defiinitely could have accmmodated 1/ not having Shandra forced for so long, and 2/ the option to kill or part ways with Ammon Jerro.

 

I don't mind having party members forced on you - it's realistic. Sometimes you have to take people you despise to succeed in your goals. But the reasons for Ammon was very artificial, and there wasn't any reason for Shandra to be in your actual party all the time. (The only reason she gives? "Every time i'm not with you, trouble finds me." Yeah right.)

[roshan]

The reasons Obsidian came up with were always really stupid. Why the hell is the only person who can read the scrolls some strange alien woman? One would think that a native of the world would know more about reading things written in that particular world!

[Volourn]

"I don't mind having party members forced on you - it's realistic."

 

No. No, it isn't. Not even close to be realistic. Not even close. It's also the number one reason why my attemtp to play the NWN2 OC a second time failed. The idea of having to party with Neeshka again is almost as annoying as her.

 

Worst. character. Evar. Poorly copnceived, poorly written.

 

Too bad too as Mr. Avellone did an EXCELLENT job on 99% of the other joinables npc. Even Grob didn't bother me too much; and he's the type of sillky character I loathe.

Edited November 26, 2006 by Volourn

[Deraldin]

"I don't mind having party members forced on you - it's realistic."

 

No. No, it isn't. Not even close to be realistic. Not even close. It's also the number one reason why my attemtp to play the NWN2 OC  a second time failed. The idea of having to party with Neeshka again is almost as annoying as her.

 

Worst. character. Evar. Poorly copnceived, poorly written.

 

Too bad too as Mr. Avellone did an EXCELLENT job on 99% of the other joinables npc. Even Grob didn't bother me too much; and he's the type of sillky character I loathe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

At least you managed to spell Neeshka right this time.

 

I actually like Neeshka, partly because she kinda reminded me of Imoen. I still much prefer Imoen because there is at least some emotional attachment to her what with the whole childhood friend/sister thing and because Neeshka acts a lot more childish than Imoen ever did.

 

What I would have loved to have seen would be to have forced NPC's depending on your class. You need Bishop in order to track down Shandra, but what if you are playing a ranger, or even a barbarian perhaps? In that case I should have thought that you would have been able to track her down yourself without his help. Later on when you need someone to read the true names, why can't you do it yourself if you happen to have a (just for example) 16+ intelligence, or even have Sand decipher them. I don't believe that he can't figure out how to read them himself.

[Volourn]

What's even wors ehere it that the 'excuse' we were given for forced npcs was that it was mandatory for the story to work. Really? How is it really mandatory to have, say for example, Neeshka (who I hate) or Khelgar (who I love) to complete the game? Oh yeah, it isn't.

 

In fact, the only characters even close to be mandatory are Zhajerve, Shandra, Jerro, and Bishop.

 

Z - So she can read the scrolls, and tells you about the Rituals. The Rituals could have been found out abouyt by that cool old sage. You nall alreadys quashed the scrolls.

 

Shandra - Well.. You need her blood for Jerro's Haven. But, there's no reason to require her in the party. However, this is probably the closest to 'legit' required party member.

 

Jerro - Scrolls were dealt with above. You don't need the Rituals to beat KOS. I surely didn't. In fact, during that battle, Jerrod did pretty much nothing as warlock powers suck,a nd warlocks suck period.

 

Bishop - WOW! he can track. Big deal. I'm sure there are plenty of trackers around NW. Not to mention IN THE PARTY.

 

 

So, in essence, there was no need to force party members on the player with the possibl;e exemption of Shandra, and that's even iffy.

 

Hmph.

[Deraldin]

Just throwing out some ideas here so feel free to shoot holes in them if you see any. They may or may not be total crap depending on your opinion.

 

I think there are other ways that they could have gotten around the forced characters for the first section of the game with Neeshka and Khelgar. Sure, it might make the beginning fights in the crypts really tough, although I'm sure you could find a way around this. I've got a few ideas, but I don't know how much work they would actually require to implement.

 

I can think of a few alternate ways of dealing with Shandra, one of them just being bleed her for the blood you need then dump her in the street somewhere, however the problem with this is how do you get around the problem of Jerro being nearly invincible within his stronghold? I suppose you could attempt to talk to him, but he didn't seem like someone who would really stop and listen. Perhaps a set of dialogues within the battle itself ala "Sleeps with Vibroblades" (Whatever his name was from Kotor2) during which you would have a chance to persuade him of your intentions.

 

That leads into Jerro himself being a required member. The way I would have loved to see his power being required is neat, although likely very, very frustrating for those that don't figure out how to do it. During the second fight with the King of Shadows with all the little versions, make it so that they respawn fast enough that if you try to kill them off one at a time, it is impossible. Alter the fight so that the respawn quickly as long as there is at least one of them left. The fight only ends if you manage to kill that last one before another one can spawn in. That way the web power in tandem with which ever power it is that you have that can damage all enemies touched by the web, becomes much more useful. Needs some work, but it's a start.

 

Bishop is easy enough to get around. A: You already know how to track so you head off yourself. B: Ask Sand for some divination magic to help out. C: Possible extra one-shot character that only sticks around till you get to the gith hideout.

[Pop]

The thing about Bishop was that he supposedly knew Luskan territory like the back of his hand, and thus could keep up with the rapidly departing Gith. There are other characters who could track, sure, but Bishop would still be the path of least resistance if he was made optional.

[Deraldin]

The thing about Bishop was that he supposedly knew Luskan territory like the back of his hand, and thus could keep up with the rapidly departing Gith. There are other characters who could track, sure, but Bishop would still be the path of least resistance if he was made optional.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with you entirely, however the complaint was about him being the only choice.

[Volourn]

I'm sure other npcs cna be found in NW that 'knew Luskan like the back of their hand'. heck, I'm sure the city of NW employs them. LOL

[Deraldin]

I'm sure other npcs cna be found in NW that 'knew Luskan like the back of  their hand'. heck, I'm sure the city of NW employs them. LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But would you be able to hire one on the spur of the moment?

[Dark_Raven]

Bishop. I would rather find my own wat around Lusken terrority then be paired wup with that sexist pig.

[Pop]

Considering the way he talks to females, I probably should have said he knows Luskan territory like the palm of his hand.

 

Oh Snap!

[Volourn]

"But would you be able to hire one on the spur of the moment?"

 

Sure. I mean Bishop basically conviently hung around your Uncle's inn just so he'd be available for when you 'needed' the map update.

 

Heck, I'm sure Elanee knows a ranger or two who would know the Luskan area well.

 

And, you could also have it so if the player decides to go out on their own to track Shandra, they could have one of those world map where you bump into a ranger who notices that you seem lost. Or better yet, if you refused Bishop's help.. he could still go ahead and you meet him and he gives you the info you need. Afterall, the whole reasoning behind him helping is he owes your uncle a favor.. so, he might do what needs to be done in spite of you refusing his party membership.

 

So many possibilities that likely wouldn't ask for all that much scripting.

Edited November 26, 2006 by Volourn

[Deraldin]

Fair enough. I'll accept those options.

[Tigranes]

Jerro didn't need to be invincible.

 

Z and AJ didn't need to be the only ones able to read ze scrolls.

 

The RoP didn't have to be interrupted so that AJ is necessary.

 

Shandra could have just given up a test tube of blood then gone back to the farm or something.

 

Neeshka and Khelgar could have been refused, then you just end up meeting them later in the city somewhere - Khelgar outside the Temple of Tyr, "hey, monk th ing isnt going so well", Neeshka robbing someone in Neverwinter. This is exactly what happened to Yoshimo in BG2 if you refused him first in the dungeon.

 

ALL of the forced characters were stupid. Earlier I said I dont mind the idea of forced characters itself; Volo disagreed, but that's just all personal opinion on my and his part. But it is a fact that none of the characters in NWN2 needed to be forced, and removing this flaw would not have unduly complicated the plot. In fact, the plot was twisted and made artificial to accommodate these stupid compulsory characters.

 

I'd love to see a Sawyer or someone comment about why the decision was made to have forced characters in the game; I'm sure there was a logic even if we don't like it, and even if it did'nt work out as well as they had intended. But for now, I say it was horrible and even though I love NWN2 it's a glaring flaw. *Especially* in multiplayer coop!

[Diamond]

I, for one, didn't find mandatory characters bothersome.

 

The reason for this design decision, I believe, is that it makes creating good NPC sequences much easier, as you know exactly who is going to be in the party.

[Tigranes]

And yet, there weren't any more than in other RPGs, really. When I saw the Qara-Neeshka-Khelgar tavern scene I wanted more, but that was the only one. And besides, in the tavern (where various cutcenes take place), EVERYBODY is there.

[Pop]

And yet, there weren't any more than in other RPGs, really. When I saw the Qara-Neeshka-Khelgar tavern scene I wanted more, but that was the only one. And besides, in the tavern (where various cutcenes take place), EVERYBODY is there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, there was some serious sitcom potential in those cutscenes. Duncan could become Jerry! Elanee could become Elaine! Khelgar is George! Grobnar is (non-racist?) Kramer! And Bishop is Neuman!

 

I use those characters cuz I don't remember Cheers ^_^

[roshan]

The forced characters really sucked. Zhjaeve and Shandra were among the most boring characters I have ever adventured with - and Shandra outright pisses me off. The reason given for Shandra being forced is probably one of the most ridiculous and idiotic things in the history of computer gaming.

 

It was really idiotic that Zhjaeve had to go with you to talk to the dragon. The only thing she did was make an irritating comment when you entered the area, and another stupid comment when you see the heart. I dont even remember her playing any role, or at least any significant role in the conversation with the dragon spirit. So she was forced into the party just so that she can point out what is already blatantly obvious by making stupid statements.

 

I really dont understand what in the world made Obsidian do the things it did. All I can think of is that they have become completely misguided and no longer have any clue at all about what made the BIS rpgs so great.

[Darque]

[aVENGER]

I'd love to see a Sawyer or someone comment about why the decision was made to have forced characters in the game; I'm sure there was a logic even if we don't like it, and even if it did'nt work out as well as they had intended. But for now, I say it was horrible and even though I love NWN2 it's a glaring flaw.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think that was his decision actually. IIRC, he came along about halfway during the game's development cycle and, more likely than not, the main plot was already well defined by then. IMO, Josh did a great job with the time he had but judging from some of his earlier board comments, I think that a large part of the game was already set in stone when he came aboard.

 

BTW, not to slander Ferret's design decisions but personally, I think NWN2 would have been a better game if Josh had been in charge right from the start.