NWN2: Forumite Impressions

[Jorian Drake]

These ultra-multi-postings are annoying and weird.

[taks]

huh? what is an "ultra-multi-posting"?

 

taks

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Ruleset Calculations are nothing, randomness CAN occasionally be expensive. All in all the D&D ruleset shouldn't be that painful, most of it is integer based, I've never seen it's innards, I suppose I could look as the ASM, but that wouldn't answer the question much and it'd waste alot of time.

 

What i see, for the cost hardware wise, doesn't balance out!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is contrary to developer comments that i've seen. it is actually a pain with so many checks. checks result in many if/then statements, case statements, loops with branches, etc. this is time consuming. particularly when these checks have to access relatively large tables, which means memory accesses which are very slow (not every table fits into cache). also, the fact that it is mostly integer based does not change the fact that the CPU can only issue so many instructions per cycle. granted, most high-end CPUs are out of order, but that only helps a bit (high-end means anything intel, AMD or PowerPC).

 

Doesn't smell write to me, the ruleset for the most part isn't exactly a world apart from NWN, which ran and systems with alot less power.

 

I've never seen a table in D&D which I would think of as being large, but there are and have been methods for storing tables, and working with tables inside of code, sine table springs to mind, a technique often used to cheaply calculate sine values.

 

Good logic can avoid alot checking aswell.

 

while it may not seem to balance out, not knowing the underlying code prevents anyone from making an accurate assessment.  certainly it may be possible to streamline the engine to handle graphics better, but i don't know that for sure.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What I mean by Balancing out is that the code under the hood somewhere is poor, it HAS to be poor to require such a high end machine. It's a simple fact.

 

Somewhere there is a bottleneck in the code, it may be obscure, but it's there.

[taks]

Doesn't smell write to me, the ruleset for the most part isn't exactly a world apart from NWN, which ran and systems with alot less power.

and was considerably less graphics intensive. NWN had a lot of problems when it was first released, too. as a matter of fact, i'm having major issues running WCoC (premium module) even now (major stutters, with daggerford as well).

 

I've never seen a table in D&D which I would think of as being large, but there are and have been methods for storing tables, and working with tables inside of code, sine table springs to mind, a technique often used to cheaply calculate sine values.

but they still sit in memory, which is slow. RAS/CAS latency is a killer.

 

Good logic can avoid alot checking aswell.

checking IS logic.

 

What I mean by Balancing out is that the code under the hood somewhere is poor, it HAS to be poor to require such a high end machine. It's a simple fact.

again, you don't know that without knowing what the code is actually doing. how much of the graphics features are truly offloaded to the GPU vs. the CPU is one in particular. something has to generate the data for the dynamic lighting and shadows and water reflections/refractions, for example, before handing it off to the GPU. it is impossible to tell what the bottleneck is unless you are actually using the library itself.

 

Somewhere there is a bottleneck in the code, it may be obscure, but it's there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

certainly, but that doesn't mean it is poor code. again, remember, there is much more detail in what we see in NWN2 than a game like oblivion. how that is handled is at best, a guess by either you or me. bottlenecks are not always unavoidable.

 

taks

[Joseph Bulock]

another bug:

Duelist Int bonus to AC is not being applied properly 

 

I actually checked into that myself. Speaking with one of the programmers, he claims that the bonus is, in fact working, but it is not reflected in the AC stats in the GUI's. Due to the fact that it is a contextual AC bonus (you can't be flat footed), the game calculates it much differently than other bonuses, and therefore it is not included in the visible AC stat. Sorry for any confusion there, and I will continue to follow this issue.

[Jorian Drake]

another bug:

Duelist Int bonus to AC is not being applied properly 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I actually checked into that myself. Speaking with one of the programmers, he claims that the bonus is, in fact working, but it is not reflected in the AC stats in the GUI's. Due to the fact that it is a contextual AC bonus (you can't be flat footed), the game calculates it much differently than other bonuses, and therefore it is not included in the visible AC stat. Sorry for any confusion there, and I will continue to follow this issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thank you much, don't know if this is actually possible, but maybe showing the AC increasement bonus in the 'other' bonuses?

(like dodge, deflection, ect. on the end of the list is other, witch should stack)

[deganawida]

Pleade some DEV look into thzis, i don't have the 3.5 version of Weapon Master so i can't.

 

Agent of greater will

Game Owner

Profile: Agent of greater willNWN

NWN: SoU

NWN: HotU

SW: KotOR PC

 

 

Joined: 06 Oct 2003  Posted: Monday, 06 November 2006 10:02AM

The Weapon Master class hasn't even been updated for 3.5

 

 

If its true then the WM in NWN2 has to be updated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Weapon Master wasn't updated to 3.5E by WotC.

[Jorian Drake]

Pleade some DEV look into thzis, i don't have the 3.5 version of Weapon Master so i can't.

 

Agent of greater will

Game Owner

Profile: Agent of greater willNWN

NWN: SoU

NWN: HotU

SW: KotOR PC

 

 

Joined: 06 Oct 2003  Posted: Monday, 06 November 2006 10:02AM

The Weapon Master class hasn't even been updated for 3.5

 

 

If its true then the WM in NWN2 has to be updated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Weapon Master wasn't updated to 3.5E by WotC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So if i understand this right, there is only one version at all and there is no 3.5 WM

[deganawida]

Pleade some DEV look into thzis, i don't have the 3.5 version of Weapon Master so i can't.

 

Agent of greater will

Game Owner

Profile: Agent of greater willNWN

NWN: SoU

NWN: HotU

SW: KotOR PC

 

 

Joined: 06 Oct 2003  Posted: Monday, 06 November 2006 10:02AM

The Weapon Master class hasn't even been updated for 3.5

 

 

If its true then the WM in NWN2 has to be updated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Weapon Master wasn't updated to 3.5E by WotC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So if i understand this right, there is only one version at all and there is no 3.5 WM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Correct. I imagine some of this is due to mechanics changes. Ki Critical, for example, should not stack with Improved Critical (just as Improved Critical does not stack with the Keen weapon property). That makes the Weapon Master's ultimate ability useless. Additionally, WotC stated that not all classes were going to be revised, as some were close enough to 3.5 to not make a difference.

 

Keep in mind, I'm speaking from a PnP perspective. They may (and probably do) stack in NWN2, but in PnP it shouldn't.

[Jorian Drake]

Pleade some DEV look into thzis, i don't have the 3.5 version of Weapon Master so i can't.

 

Agent of greater will

Game Owner

Profile: Agent of greater willNWN

NWN: SoU

NWN: HotU

SW: KotOR PC

 

 

Joined: 06 Oct 2003  Posted: Monday, 06 November 2006 10:02AM

The Weapon Master class hasn't even been updated for 3.5

 

 

If its true then the WM in NWN2 has to be updated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Weapon Master wasn't updated to 3.5E by WotC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So if i understand this right, there is only one version at all and there is no 3.5 WM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Correct. I imagine some of this is due to mechanics changes. Ki Critical, for example, should not stack with Improved Critical (just as Improved Critical does not stack with the Keen weapon property). That makes the Weapon Master's ultimate ability useless. Additionally, WotC stated that not all classes were going to be revised, as some were close enough to 3.5 to not make a difference.

 

Keep in mind, I'm speaking from a PnP perspective. They may (and probably do) stack in NWN2, but in PnP it shouldn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know its the official variant, but i find it silly that an item's 'magic keenness' doesn't stack with a warriors sense for better striking critical parts to improve damage.

[Setzer]

oooohhh... you have an LCD.  sorry.  yeah, that could be a killer.  LCDs need to run in their native which is probably 1600x1200?  that would be murder on most vid cards.

 

this would be the one "catch" i failed to mention above.  the high resolution requirements of most LCDs makes gaming difficult sometimes, even with uber video cards.  i have a 21" samsung at work (well, one here, too, the 213T) and it looks horrible with everything, even winders, on anything less than 1600x1200.  unfortunately, i don't have a vid card strong enough to power that resolution at 75 Hz refresh, 32-bit color and any nifty options.  so it sits unused.

 

25 is playable, though it'll probably drop signficantly during battles.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

again, NO, I DID NOT SAY YOUR MONITOR WAS THE PROBLEM. please re-read what i said.

 

I've went back and re-read your post several times now and I keep coming to the same conclusion -- you seem to think my LCD is the reason for my poor FPS in NWN2. I was explaining to you that I can run other graphic intensive games without any problems. I understand this could very well be an issue with NWN2's engine but how is that the problem of the monitor. You should have just said, "Due to NWN2's engine limitations it probably has problems running at higher resolutions." Well, ok then.

[Wistrik]

Don't forget that Windows communicates to your monitor through a monitor driver. You can experience issues if that's not up to date. I recently encountered a lot of shearing when I got my new 21" wide-screen flat panel. A driver update from Microsoft fixed 99.9% of the problem. The best place to check for monitor drivers is at your monitor manufacturer's website. The one I got from Microsoft was in turn received from Samsung, the makers of my LCD.

 

NWN2 seems to have the ability to auto-adjust the aspect ratio of your selected resolution to the wide-screen LCD (this can conflict with NVidia's equivalent setting if you have it turned on, so I leave it off in NVidia's drivers while playing NWN2). I play at 1280x1024 resolution (~15-20 FPS) because the game chugs too much at 1680x1050, and instead of getting a horizontally stretched picture, the game maintains the aspect ratio of 4:3 and I see non-instrusive black bars on each side of the image. My LCD can display resolutions as low as 1024x768 before things start getting fuzzy due to being too far from the native resolution.

 

To see your FPS while moving around and doing things, bring up the console (~) and type ShowFPS. Type it again to turn it off. The console is case-sensitive, so if it doesn't work, try showFPS or something. No parameters are required. You may want to hide the GUI to make it easier to see some of the FPS output.

[Setzer]

I'm using the latest drivers for my monitor - thanks for asking.

 

I'll try running the game at 1280x1024 and see how it looks. If it auto adjusts like you say it does then I don't mind playing with the black bars. I thought it would just stretch the image out.

[taks]

I've went back and re-read your post several times now and I keep coming to the same conclusion -- you seem to think my LCD is the reason for my poor FPS in NWN2.

ok, this is the LAST time i will say this...

 

LCDs IN GENERAL, are difficult to use with games. LCDs require that you run them in native resolution mode. if you have a game that has a stout graphics requirement, which NWN2 does, then running in native mode is next to impossible (unless 1 FPS is attractive to you).

 

NOT ONCE DID I EVER SAY YOUR LCD IS THE PROBLEM. sheesh...

 

as a result, you have to turn down your resolution. ALL LCDs LOOK CRAPPY OUT OF THEIR NATIVE RESOLUTION. got it?

 

this latter point, btw, is why i have not switched to an LCD. CRTs do not have a native resolution problem ala LCDs.

 

I was explaining to you that I can run other graphic intensive games without any problems. I understand this could very well be an issue with NWN2's engine but how is that the problem of the monitor. You should have just said, "Due to NWN2's engine limitations it probably has problems running at higher resolutions." Well, ok then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i didn't say it was your monitor. read all three (now four, not counting the post in the other thread) of my posts on this subject.

 

it's not really an "issue" with NWN2's engine either. it is a DIFFERENT engine, that is all. what you consider great graphics using oblivion or WoW is totally different simply because the engines are different. also, what you see as graphics intensive may really not be so intensive. one thing i've noted with NWN2 is that there is much more detail in the general surroundings. certainly oblivion has better overall textures, but look at the detail when you're in a building, or even the detail outside. it is fairly general. the engines are soooo different it is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

taks

[taks]

NWN2 seems to have the ability to auto-adjust the aspect ratio of your selected resolution to the wide-screen LCD (this can conflict with NVidia's equivalent setting if you have it turned on, so I leave it off in NVidia's drivers while playing NWN2).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

allowing games to auto-adjust is an issue, too.

 

taks

[Setzer]

 

How can you go from saying, "oooohhh... you have an LCD. sorry. yeah, that could be a killer. LCDs need to run in their native which is probably 1600x1200? that would be murder on most vid cards" and then turn around and tell me, "I didn't say your LCD was the problem"? If my LCD has a native resolution of 1680x1050 and NWN2 isn't going to play well at that resolution then how is this NOT an issue with my monitor - according to you? Yes, I can run the game at a lower resolution and have it look crappy, at least I thought it would until Wistrik pointed out that the game auto adjusts so it doesn't stretch out the image if I try running the game at 1280x1024.

 

I'm not going to continue arguing with you because you don't make sense. You say one thing and then change your mind and say something else. I'll try changing the resolution tonight when I get off work and see if that looks good and improves my performance.

[Lare Kikkeli]

well it's a known fact that nwn2 lags in high resolutions. so your LCD is kinda the problem, since your video card cant run the game in the resolution your LCD requires to look good. your LCD is the problem; your video card is the bottle neck.

[Setzer]

well it's a known fact that nwn2 lags in high resolutions. so your LCD is kinda the problem, since your video card cant run the game in the resolution your LCD requires to look good. your LCD is the problem; your video card is the bottle neck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would hope that my 7900GT 512mb card would be able to handle 1680x1050 resolution, at least it says it will.

[taks]

How can you go from saying, "oooohhh... you have an LCD.  sorry.  yeah, that could be a killer.  LCDs need to run in their native which is probably 1600x1200?  that would be murder on most vid cards" and then turn around and tell me, "I didn't say your LCD was the problem"?

read that statement. where did i say that YOUR LCD is a problem? i said that LCDs need to run natively. period. that by itself is a killer. typical native resolution for larger LCDs is 1600x1200, which is difficult for all but the best of video cards to support.

 

If my LCD has a native resolution of 1680x1050 and NWN2 isn't going to play well at that resolution then how is this NOT an issue with my monitor - according to you?

it's not the monitor, setzer, it is the video card combined with an LCD with a high native resolution. that high of a resolution is extremely taxing on any video card. if you had a native resolution of 1024x768, you probably would have zero issues (i still don't understand why the next step with LCD mfgs is 1280x1024 since that is not 4:3).

 

Yes, I can run the game at a lower resolution and have it look crappy, at least I thought it would until Wistrik pointed out that the game auto adjusts so it doesn't stretch out the image if I try running the game at 1280x1024.

since that's obviously not your native resolution, you can expect the game may look funny. it may not, i don't know since i don't use an LCD. with my desktop here at work, anything other than native looks like crap, even just winders.

 

I'm not going to continue arguing with you because you don't make sense.

whatever. even after you quoted me you still can't point to where i said your monitor is a problem. all i said was that running out of native is a problem for LCDs, in general. since your native is, apparently, 1680x1050, that means your video card has to provide resolution for 1680x1050 in order to look as good as the monitor can deliver. as soon as you switch out of native resolution, the video card has an easier time, but it renders funny on the monitor.

 

You say one thing and then change your mind and say something else. I'll try changing the resolution tonight when I get off work and see if that looks good and improves my performance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

actually, i don't say one thing then another, you just repeatedly read the wrong thing into what i've said. sorry, hope your woes are solvable.

 

taks

[taks]

I would hope that my 7900GT 512mb card would be able to handle 1680x1050 resolution, at least it says it will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it should, and i don't know why it won't. though, as noted, 1680x1050 is not a standard 4:3 aspect ratio. maybe it is because the game is trying to force 4:3 on top of your native mode? dunno... perhaps the black-bar fall-back is all you can do.

 

taks

[Setzer]

it's not the monitor, setzer, it is the video card combined with an LCD with a high native resolution.  that high of a resolution is extremely taxing on any video card.  if you had a native resolution of 1024x768, you probably would have zero issues (i still don't understand why the next step with LCD mfgs is 1280x1024 since that is not 4:3).

 

Here we go again -- the problem is my monitor. IF I had a CRT or an LCD monitor with a native resolution of 1280x1024 or less I wouldn't be having these issues but since I'm using a 20" ws LCD monitor with a native resolution of 1680x1050 then I'm going have FPS issues. Correct?

 

 

whatever.  even after you quoted me you still can't point to where i said your monitor is a problem.  all i said was that running out of native is a problem for LCDs, in general.

 

What? So, now we go from saying, "LCDs need to run in their native which is probably 1600x1200? that would be murder on most vid cards" TO "running OUT OF NATIVE is a problem for LCDs in general". This is why you don't make sense. So, tell me taks, if running the game in either the native or non-native resolution is going to be a problem because either it's too taxing on my video card or because running out of native is a problem for most LCD monitors then what is your solution to my problem? Sounds to me if I had a CRT or a smaller LCD I wouldn't be having these issues thus my monitor being the problem.

[Volourn]

R00fles!

[Ellester]

I would hope that my 7900GT 512mb card would be able to handle 1680x1050 resolution, at least it says it will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it should, and i don't know why it won't. though, as noted, 1680x1050 is not a standard 4:3 aspect ratio. maybe it is because the game is trying to force 4:3 on top of your native mode? dunno... perhaps the black-bar fall-back is all you can do.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It won't. I can run Oblivion in 1680x1050 on my widescreen lcd perfectly (my monitors native res), and I can run it with NWN2, but the frame rates suck. So, I use 1024 x 768, it's not appealing, but it runs a lot smoother.

 

btw, I have a 7950 GTX, FX-60 and 2 gigs of ram

Edited November 6, 2006 by Ellester

[Setzer]

I would hope that my 7900GT 512mb card would be able to handle 1680x1050 resolution, at least it says it will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it should, and i don't know why it won't. though, as noted, 1680x1050 is not a standard 4:3 aspect ratio. maybe it is because the game is trying to force 4:3 on top of your native mode? dunno... perhaps the black-bar fall-back is all you can do.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It won't. I can run Oblivion in 1680x1050 on my widescreen lcd perfectly (my monitors native res), and I can run it with NWN2, but the frame rates suck. So, I use 1024 x 768, it's not appealing, but it runs a lot smoother.

 

btw, I have a 7950 GTX, FX-60 and 2 gigs of ram

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yah but you can't compare Oblivion and NWN2, at least according to taks.

[Lare Kikkeli]

well it's a known fact that nwn2 lags in high resolutions. so your LCD is kinda the problem, since your video card cant run the game in the resolution your LCD requires to look good. your LCD is the problem; your video card is the bottle neck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would hope that my 7900GT 512mb card would be able to handle 1680x1050 resolution, at least it says it will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

not nwn2 it seems.