US Aid

[213374U]

Thread pruned a little.

 

Can we please play nice?

What the hell. People can freely post nonsense but when I call them on it I get censored? How about you prune that as well?

 

Get real.

 

Okay, let's try again.

 

Most people will not change their beliefs; their outlook on the world. [...]

 

If you wish to argue peak oil or don't believe in manmade climate change then please don't waste your energy on me. I have heard it all too many times before.

Lol.

 

I think your attitude and style of discussion might be better suited for religious threads. There, you can just spout off some random doctrine that doesn't need to be proven or demonstrated whatsoever, and then you can stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalala I'm not listening" when you get a reply you don't agree with. Good stuff.

 

There. Is that better?

[Darque]

Much better.

 

Plus you didn't try to rhyme words with Ironic.

[kirottu]

I say the admin should make so that every time someone writes the word "nonsense" it gets replaced with this:

Edited October 8, 2006 by kirottu

[metadigital]

That is why we should probably compare the average yearly death counts prior the invasion to the post invasion numbers and see where they lie.  If my calculations are correct, they are approximately the same.  So, Iraq is not worse off, but not better off, at least where it comes to the total amount of dead are concerned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is totally incorrect and a dangerously facile simplification.

 

For a start, the overwelming majority of causualties in Iraq now are the result of internecine battles, and not direct US action. For example, you are including all the citizens applying for jobs as police that are being killed by homocidal sucide bombers, as they stand in line waiting for an application form. How is that the US's fault?

 

There is also the same amount, or more, torture in Iraq right now than under Suddam Hussein; does that mean the US is torturing all the Iraqi people? No.

 

The "country" of Iraq (which is only a British Empire twentieth century construction, btw, nothing like the ancient Persian civilization next door) is damaged by years of satrap violence against them.

 

You're blaming the paramedics for the drug addict's self-inflicted wounds.

[ElNino]

I think your attitude and style of discussion might be better suited for religious threads. There, you can just spout off some random doctrine that doesn't need to be proven or demonstrated whatsoever, and then you can stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalala I'm not listening" when you get a reply you don't agree with. Good stuff.

 

There. Is that better?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I state quite clearly that my post is about my personal beliefs. And I also state that I realize the irony. Why waste your time pointing that out?

 

I have actually changed quite drastically over the past couple years. I used to be very pro-US, but once you get underneath the sugar-coated reality things begin to look... grim.

 

I am not asking you to believe me -- that would be religious nonsense. All I'm saying is that I have been - and apparently still is - involved in this debate for a some time now, and at some point 2+2 equals 4.

 

I highly doubt anyone would find a long list of books, articles, news, interviews, links etc interesting. That is why all I can stomach is to offer my own point of view.

 

But my beliefs are not set in stone. I have a general perspective on what is happing and what is to come, but data and information change all the time. Sometime things are disproven and with enough credible sources I will admit when I am wrong. Only a Stih believe in absolutes. Heh.

 

But you don't have to take my word for it. Reasearch it yourself, but remember to have other sources than Fox "News"

[alanschu]

I have actually changed quite drastically over the past couple years. I used to be very pro-US, but once you get underneath the sugar-coated reality things begin to look... grim.

 

If you recognize the pointlessness of making a comment like this one (as indicated in your two most recent posts), then why do you make it?

 

I highly doubt anyone would find a long list of books, articles, news, interviews, links etc interesting. That is why all I can stomach is to offer my own point of view.

 

If you found them interesting, what makes you think someone else wouldn't?

 

But my beliefs are not set in stone. I have a general perspective on what is happing and what is to come, but data and information change all the time. Sometime things are disproven and with enough credible sources I will admit when I am wrong. Only a Stih believe in absolutes. Heh.

 

I don't think large sects of society are any different. And not just the intellects. The general population buys into the appeal of authority quite well, and if authority ends up changing their stance, the general population tends to follow suit.

[213374U]

I state quite clearly that my post is about my personal beliefs. And I also state that I realize the irony. Why waste your time pointing that out?

The thing is, this isn't about "beliefs". It's about hard, provable facts. If you aren't willing to accept that your views might be flawed or incomplete, there is no point in your posting anything here. We can do without your enlightening and unquestionable dogmas, thank you very much.

 

 

I am not asking you to believe me -- that would be religious nonsense. All I'm saying is that I have been - and apparently still is - involved in this debate for a some time now, and at some point 2+2 equals 4.

Wow, it must be great to possess such a degree of certainty on issues that most experts, analysts, and assorted brainiacs can't seem to agree on.

 

Or maybe it's just not as simple as 2+2.

 

 

I highly doubt anyone would find a long list of books, articles, news, interviews, links etc interesting.

Oh? You think here we argue out of our asses or what? Please, step down from your high horse and post your "long list". And even when you do, keep in mind that for every article and book published, chances are you can find a hundred others that claim the opposite.

 

 

Sometime things are disproven and with enough credible sources I will admit when I am wrong.

How come? You have probably "heard it all too many times before".

 

 

But you don't have to take my word for it. Reasearch it yourself, but remember to have other sources than Fox "News"

This last comment shows how open-minded and well-thought your opinions are. I'm not American. We don't even have Fox News here. But yeah, I must be your typical right-wing, Fox News-worshipping nutjob, just because it's so much easier to picture the world in black and white.

[ElNino]

I have actually changed quite drastically over the past couple years. I used to be very pro-US, but once you get underneath the sugar-coated reality things begin to look... grim.

If you recognize the pointlessness of making a comment like this one (as indicated in your two most recent posts), then why do you make it?

The pointlessness I was refering to would be to find X amount of articles as "proof" of my point of view. I wrote the above comment to - once again - explain what I have been going through. To explain where I were comming from.

 

I highly doubt anyone would find a long list of books, articles, news, interviews, links etc interesting. That is why all I can stomach is to offer my own point of view.

 

If you found them interesting, what makes you think someone else wouldn't?

 

And I don't believe in post-bombs. It's no way to argue as you indirectly try to claim superiority based on an extensive (and visible) amount of material. Furthermore; if I genuine wished for others to objectively read certain articles I would seldom submit them like that into an open debate. It's much better if people find the the material on their own. (I can, however, provide a single link: http://www.energybulletin.net/ )

 

I state quite clearly that my post is about my personal beliefs. And I also state that I realize the irony. Why waste your time pointing that out?

 

The thing is, this isn't about "beliefs". It's about hard, provable facts. If you aren't willing to accept that your views might be flawed or incomplete, there is no point in your posting anything here. We can do without your enlightening and unquestionable dogmas, thank you very much.

 

If you interpret the word "beliefs" in a religious setting then I appologize. I agree this is very much about hard facts. And after reading extensively I have of course begun to form a general opinion about certain aspects in life. I am no diffirent than anybody else.

 

I am not asking you to believe me -- that would be religious nonsense. All I'm saying is that I have been - and apparently still is - involved in this debate for a some time now, and at some point 2+2 equals 4.

 

Wow, it must be great to possess such a degree of certainty on issues that most experts, analysts, and assorted brainiacs can't seem to agree on. Or maybe it's just not as simple as 2+2.

 

Many many things are a blurry mess, but my 2+2 comments was primarily directed towards the peak oil debate. It's geological proven and makes a lot of sense to me. But! Just as certain I am about peak oil (and climate change), I am constantly learning more aspects about it. I didn't mean to come across as a know-it-all.

 

Sometime things are disproven and with enough credible sources I will admit when I am wrong.

 

How come? You have probably "heard it all too many times before".

 

Some arguments I truly have heard all to many times.

 

"But you don't have to take my word for it. Reasearch it yourself, but remember to have other sources than Fox "News" "

 

"This last comment shows how open-minded and well-thought your opinions are. I'm not American. We don't even have Fox News here. But yeah, I must be your typical right-wing, Fox News-worshipping nutjob, just because it's so much easier to picture the world in black and white."

 

Sigh. Fox "News" is a stading joke and was the first thing that came to mind. It has nothing to do with what I think of you.

[metadigital]

I state quite clearly that my post is about my personal beliefs. And I also state that I realize the irony. Why waste your time pointing that out?

...

I am not asking you to believe me -- that would be religious nonsense.

...

I highly doubt anyone would find a long list of books, articles, news, interviews, links etc interesting. That is why all I can stomach is to offer my own point of view.

 

But my beliefs are not set in stone. I have a general perspective on what is happing and what is to come, but data and information change all the time. Sometime things are disproven and with enough credible sources I will admit when I am wrong. Only a Stih believe in absolutes. Heh.

 

But you don't have to take my word for it. Reasearch it yourself, but remember to have other sources than Fox "News"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you sum total contribution to the topic is "I believe X, and you should all go out and read more so that you believe it too."

 

Thanks for your valuable contribution!

[Judge Hades]

For a start, the overwelming majority of causualties in Iraq now are the result of internecine battles, and not direct US action. For example, you are including all the citizens applying for jobs as police that are being killed by homocidal sucide bombers, as they stand in line waiting for an application form. How is that the US's fault?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The US is the one in charge and the one who is putting a new government in place. Ultimately the US government is in control and thusly is responsible for what goes on in Iraq, regardless if they have a direct hand in it or not. It is the chain of events from when the US invaded to the current situation now, it is all tied to when Bush decided to invade.

 

For good or ill, the US is ultimately responsible for both Afganistan and Iraq.

[metadigital]

So it's (partly) YOUR fault, too, then.

[Judge Hades]

Yep. Damned bastard that I am.

[ElNino]

So you sum total contribution to the topic is "I believe X, and you should all go out and read more so that you believe it too."

 

Thanks for your valuable contribution!

 

But of course. That surely is what I am saying.

[Colrom]

So it's (partly) YOUR fault, too, then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh! Oh! Oh!

 

I have a question!

 

I have a question!

 

Does that mean that Judge Hades like George Bush has authority as well as responsibility and gets to order troops and stuff to do things to people there - like boss them around and kill some of them and make stuff and take stuff and things like that - to make things better still according to his deciding?

 

Wow!

 

That could be interesting.

[metadigital]

No, let me simplify it for you.

 

It means that Hades, as a member of the USA, has responsibility for the leader elected to his country according to his logic.

[Judge Hades]

All Americans do. We elect them in office, we pay our taxes, and so forth. That is why each American should vote and make sure we put in the best officials as possible and punish those who cheated in getting in office. I still say Bush cheated in his two elections.

[metadigital]

Of course you do.

[Pop]

[Lucius]

Awwwwwww that would be so cuuuuuute...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I liked cats... :angry:

[Walsingham]

Kittens = tasty good.

 

Anyway, I'd respond, but Meta seems t be making most of my points for me.

 

Irrespective of who causes the deaths now, our intervention is certainly the defiing factor behind the current state of affairs. I think we should accept responsibility. But

 

1) To the best of my enquiring I have never seen any figures that put average death tolls higher now than under Saddam Hussein. If anyone has such figures I'd be genuinely interested in seeing them. PM me if necessary.

 

2) If we bug out with the job unfinished a whole lot more people will be dying so can we PLEASE quit griping and rally behind the poor benighted Iraqis?

[Colrom]

Kittens = tasty good.

 

Anyway, I'd respond, but Meta seems t be making most of my points for me.

 

Irrespective of who causes the deaths now, our intervention is certainly the defiing factor behind the current state of affairs. I think we should accept responsibility. But

 

1) To the best of my enquiring I have never seen any figures that put average death tolls higher now than under Saddam Hussein. If anyone has such figures I'd be genuinely interested in seeing them. PM me if necessary.

 

2) If we bug out with the job unfinished a whole lot more people will be dying so can we PLEASE quit griping and rally behind the poor benighted Iraqis?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We have no rightful authority to be there nor do polls indicate the Iraqis want us there.

 

We should leave.

 

Certainly killing somebody or breaking somebodies stuff doesn't give the perpetrator authority to take control of the people and stuff left behind. But we act as if it does - at least for us.

 

It is a problem in our thinking that we assume that we have the authority to decide what is good for other people and to compell them to act in accordance with our plans. This viewpoint is a perverted child of the doctrine of "manifest destiny".

 

If we want to help Iraqis, we ought to provide money and other aid through Iraqis living in Iraq for Iraqis living in Iraq.

 

If the situation gets worse in Iraq that is a matter for legitimate authorities (if any really exist anymore) to address or not. We are not a legitamate authority for that purpose.

 

We should also be getting ourselves on a better track by voting for good leaders and maybe handling the criminals in our own midst using the legal tools provided by our law, like impeachment .

 

Judge Hades can help us there. I have absolute confidence that he will do everything he can to deliver onto us the best leadership possible.

 

Help us Judge Hades.

 

You are our only hope.

[Judge Hades]

I agree with both those points, Walsh. From my research the average yearly death toll from Saddam reign and the US occupation is roughly the same. Not worse, but not better, than before. It just seems worse now because of the constant media coverage, the US military deaths on occasion, and the fact that it is being done by various factions instead of just one.

 

On point two, I do agree that we need to make sure that Iraq can take care of itself and be more self sufficient before leaving. Something we should have done in Afganistan before we invaded Iraq. I do think that Bush and his administration are the wrong people to do this. We need a united coalition of many nations, from the US to the Russia, from China to Great Britain, to partake in this so that Iraq can be strong. Such a united front cannot happen with Bush in charge because how he has alienated so many nations. We also remove support from Israel and place those resources to Iraq and Afganistan. Israel no longer needs our help. If we can marshal the resources we are spending on Israel on a yearly basis and focus it on Iraq and Afganistan, the process of making Iraq and Afganistan on solid ground can really begin.

[Judge Hades]

Help us Judge Hades. 

 

You are our only hope. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah, man. We are so screwed.

[Lucius]

What, you saying hades's supposed to save us?

 

Oh no you can't be serious...

 

You are...

 

Okay that's just gross.

Edited October 9, 2006 by Lucius

[metadigital]

We have no rightful authority to be there nor do polls indicate the Iraqis want us there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You might want to provide some proof, rather than just spouting opinion.

 

Regardless, I see you are advocating the old Conservative policy of Isolationism. Excellent backward step! Placing the head (including the ears) firmly up the alimentary canal should prevent any of those pesky countries outside THE US of A from being heard.

We should leave.

 

Certainly killing somebody or breaking somebodiey's stuff doesn't give the perpetrator authority to take control of the people and stuff left behind. But we act as if it does - at least for us.

 

It is a problem in our thinking that we assume that we have the authority to decide what is good for other people and to compell them to act in accordance with our plans. This viewpoint is a perverted child of the doctrine of  "manifest destiny".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see.

 

And leaving would provide a power vacuum, as the Iraqi government are not in a position to keep civil order; remember that the majority of the violence in Iraq currently is sectarian.

 

And the US should never have entered either World War, because it was a "European Internal matter", too.

 

You would have no trouble getting a job with the Chinese foreign diplomatic service.

If we want to help Iraqis, we ought to provide money and other aid through Iraqis living in Iraq for Iraqis living in Iraq.

 

If the situation gets worse in Iraq that is a matter for legitimate authorities (if any really exist anymore) to address or not. We are not a legitamate authority for that purpose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The coalition provided the means for the first democratic elections in Iraq since Saddam Hussein became satrap-in-chief.

We should also be getting ourselves on a better track by voting for good leaders and maybe handling the criminals in our own midst using the legal tools provided by our law, like impeachment .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, well, that would be an "internal US matter".