Most powerful Sith in KOTOR series (spoilers???)

[Sturm]

LOL Jealous? Why would I be jealous of someone whos half of his statements are based on gameplay experiences and just talks about Revan this and Revan that instead of seeing both perspectives and not just siding with Revan just because has a move appealing outfit to you.

 

And no I am not a fanboy, just know in this case that Nihilius would probabally come out top dog.

 

Keeping in mind that I havent even read half of your spam and dont intend to either, and no they arent all canon, I doubt you even know the canon aspects for both Exile and Revan

 

Usually I tend to respect people who have proven themselves more then one occasion as well and that can atleast provide a reliable and decent discussion without resulting to fanboyism.

[Xard]

Indeed. That is worst type of fanboyism.

And your constant defence and assumptions about Nihilus is indeed a sign of fanboysim as well.

 

Anyways! it is nice talking to you cause you are not insulting at-least.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How I can be Nih's fanboy when I hate him?

[Purgatorio]

^Six pages and nobody has been called a N0ob.

"Force Slurp" is much better than "Force Sucky Kill."

There is no need to call anyone noob because nobody is dumb here.

 

That Force Slurp is a very powerful Force Drain technique actually.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know it's weird that, and now it's 7 pages...... umm, not my fault. The reason I wrote that can be seen in Xards sig....

 

I have a question...

When Revan was captured He was a Sith, a powerful Sith Lord, that is acceptable for it is cannon. Malak and Bastilla say at the end that Revan is more powerful now than he was before being captured. Keeping that in mind, if canonically the ending of KOTOR 1 is the Light-Side ending how can Revan be a more powerful Sith Lord than Malak?

[S_W_LeGenD]

Keeping in mind that I havent even read half of your spam and dont intend to either, and no they arent all canon, I doubt you even know the canon aspects for both Exile and Revan

 

Usually I tend to respect people who have proven themselves more then one occasion as well and that can atleast provide a reliable and decent discussion without resulting to fanboyism.

If you know some canon aspects about Exile and Revan more then me then why don't you mention them here?

 

Your knowledge of Nihilus also only seems to be as much limited as revealed in the KOTOR 2 Game.

 

And not all people share your views but that does not means that you start calling them noobs and insult them.

 

Decent discussion can only take place when there is some level of tolerance.

 

Try to look at faults in your thinking as well.

 

How I can be Nih's fanboy when I hate him?

Hmm! I got your point!

 

Anyways! why you hate him? (just curious)

Edited October 28, 2006 by S_W_LeGenD

[Xard]

A)He goes against canon (as he lives without force and EATS the force. Annoying as hell )

B) He is very poor character

C) He talks like flushing toilet

D) He is all too easy to win after all "ZOMG, NIHILUS OWNS US ALL!!!"-hype

[S_W_LeGenD]

I have a question...

When Revan was captured He was a Sith, a powerful Sith Lord, that is acceptable for it is cannon. Malak and Bastilla say at the end that Revan is more powerful now than he was before being captured. Keeping that in mind, if canonically the ending of KOTOR 1 is the Light-Side ending how can Revan be a more powerful Sith Lord than Malak?

hmm! interesting question!

 

Actually Revan was a very powerful Sith Lord and Malak was his apprentice. The reason behind this is that Revan was more smart and had more knowledge of the Dark Side powers.

 

Even the Jedi Masters indicated that when Revan and Malak were Jedi, Revan was stronger in the force and was indeed considered to be better among the pair by the Jedi Masters.

 

Then it is also portrayed that Revan became more powerful in the end of KOTOR game then he was as Darth Revan but remember that these are just Bastilla's words and she even says that "although you are just a mere shadow of your former-self but still you are powerful" when you confront her on Starforge (if you decline to join her on the Temple).

 

The point here is that she was just trying to psychologically manipulate Revan's mind so that he could join her (after she joins the Dark Side).

 

Regarding Malak!

 

You need to note that whatever Malak used and commanded after betraying Revan, was actually created by Revan (with exception to Star Forge) but Revan's plans were different from that of Malak's.

 

And like all other Sith Lords, Malak was also anxious to become more powerful but to achieve that, he had to undo Revan in a "Master vs Apprentice" Showdown!

 

But Revan as a Sith Lord was never directly challenged by any other Sith Lord including Malak because it was feared that Revan would actually win in the fight.

 

So, Malak chose a different way to end Revan's supremacy.

 

C) He talks like flushing toilet

LOL! this was the funniest! :D

 

Anways! thanks for your answer!

Edited October 28, 2006 by S_W_LeGenD

[Guest The Architect]

When Bane said 'power is its own purpose', he didn't mean power hasa purpose, he meant powers only purpose is power. The power Nihilus wielded had no purpose except its own power, Nihilus merely gave that power direction. The argument here is does a Sith Lord have to care about the Sith order to be a Sith? I'll direct you to the Sith code.

 

Peace is a lie there is only passion through passion I gain strength; through strength I gain power; through power I gain victory; through victory my chains are broken; the force shal free me. Now, one thing is consitent with all great Sith Lords, they are selfish and only meet there end through inevitable death. A Sith Lord only cares about the Sith order if it is as means to acquire and maintain power.

 

If there is a hierachy of authority(however large or small) a Sith Lord will look to use it to advance himself. If there are apprentices a Sith will either kill them or use them, to gain and maintain his power. But what happens when a Sith Lord acquires the fullest human extent of dark side power? The Sith order no longer becomes important only the force, and that's what happened to Nihilus. He didn't stop becoming a Sith Lord, he just devled too deep into the dark side, to a point where most Sith Lords wouldn't dare delve. The Sith order eventually becomes a victim sacrificed to attain power for Nihilus. Nihilus represents the deepest darkness of the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, a Sith Lord does not have to care about the people in the Sith Order to be a Sith Lord, however in the case of Darth Nihilus; during KotOR II he no longer even cares about the teachings of the Sith.

 

So I ask again, if you do not care about (which can also infer 'don't follow') the teachings of the Sith as well, how can anybody truly call themselves a Sith Lord if that is the case? That's like a someone saying "Oh yeah, I'm a Buddhist, but I don't care about the teachings of Buddhism." In a scenario like that, it's likely someone would reply along the lines of "WTF? How can you call yourself a Buddhist if you don't care about the teachings of Buddhism?"

 

You're right that Darth Nihilus devled too deep into the dark side, to the point where it took him over and consumed him, but I still don't agree that he 'never stopped becoming a Sith Lord' not only because of of the whole factor that he 'no longer cares about the teachings of the Sith' but also because one cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the galaxy as a normal Sith Lord would.

 

But it can be argued against me that no one ever comes right out and says that Darth Nihilus is no longer a Sith Lord, but Kreia's little talk about him in KotOR II certainly gave me the impression that he is practically just nothing but a life eating clown freak who, as Xard says talks like a flushing toilet.

 

To me, Nihilus was no longer a Sith Lord in KotOR II. To you, he still was. We disagree and continue to disagree, because there is no definitive answer in the game that would end the argument. But the dialogue about Nihilus (nothing) we get from the evil, cunning, manipulative, enigmatic old hag known as Kreia certainly makes me believe that Darth Nihilus is no longer a Sith Lord in KotOR II.

 

Oh and one last thing, DeathScepter made a good point about Nihilus being a slave to his power which according to the Sith, is a sign of weakness. I remember in KotOR when Yuthura Ban speaks about how 'the force serves us' or something like that, meaning that they are supposed to be in control of their power; not the other way around. To serve the Force (like the Jedi do) or to be a slave of the Force is considered as a failure amonst the Sith and un-Sith like.

Edited October 29, 2006 by The Architect

[Xard]

I agree with Architect so it is 2-1!

 

We victory

[Purgatorio]

It is not a sign of greatness to be ruled by base desires for power, for lust erodes ones will.

Edit: Snip!

If the force is a metaphor of fate controlling the lives of mortals, (Jedi and Sith included), can any of them truly have any power? If Kriea in her Sith form broke from the will of the force, and was driven by her own will, then she would have the ultimate power of creating ones own fate/destiny.

The same applies to Nihilus he could not break away from the hunger.

Lazy? No just bumping. "

[DeathScepter]

my logic(sometimes it is questionable) tells me.

 

 

The Hunger is a form of Force Addiction. Like All addiction, it will change you and ulimately weakens you.

 

 

Yes Addiction can and will change your POV.

 

 

So When Kreia said that he is a shell of a man, Because his addiction is eating him away.

 

To keep himself alive, He has to use his "power" to surive. Thus making his demise even more quick by the Exile.

 

 

For a simple lie by Kreia made him weak so the Exile could defeat him.

 

So gameplay wise as storyline wise, Nihilus is very weak due to being over due on his hunger.

[Darth Blivion]

Yes, a Sith Lord does not have to care about the people in the Sith Order to be a Sith Lord, however in the case of Darth Nihilus; during KotOR II he no longer even cares about the teachings of the Sith.

 

So I ask again, if you do not care about (which can also infer 'don't follow') the teachings of the Sith as well, how can anybody truly call themselves a Sith Lord if that is the case? That's like a someone saying "Oh yeah, I'm a Buddhist, but I don't care about the teachings of Buddhism." In a scenario like that, it's likely someone would reply along the lines of "WTF? How can you call yourself a Buddhist if you don't care about the teachings of Buddhism?"

 

You're right that Darth Nihilus devled too deep into the dark side, to the point where it took him over and consumed him, but I still don't agree that he 'never stopped becoming a Sith Lord' not only because of of the whole factor that he 'no longer cares about the teachings of the Sith' but also because one cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the galaxy as a normal Sith Lord would.

 

But it can be argued against me that no one ever comes right out and says that Darth Nihilus is no longer a Sith Lord, but Kreia's little talk about him in KotOR II certainly gave me the impression that he is practically just nothing but a life eating clown freak who, as Xard says talks like a flushing toilet. 

 

To me, Nihilus was no longer a Sith Lord in KotOR II. To you, he still was. We disagree and continue to disagree, because there is no definitive answer in the game that would end the argument. But the dialogue about Nihilus (nothing) we get from the evil, cunning, manipulative, enigmatic old hag known as Kreia certainly makes me believe that Darth Nihilus is no longer a Sith Lord in KotOR II. 

 

Oh and one last thing, DeathScepter made a good point about Nihilus being a slave to his power which according to the Sith, is a sign of weakness. I remember in KotOR when Yuthura Ban speaks about how 'the force serves us' or something like that, meaning that they are supposed to be in control of their power; not the other way around. To serve the Force (like the Jedi do) or to be a slave of the Force is considered as a failure amonst the Sith and un-Sith like.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

To be a Sith is to be unencumbered by all laws, including those of the Sith, especially if they hinder someone from attaining power. As Kreia mentioned, 'Sith Lord' is merely a title that dresses an individual, in other words you can no more identify who a person is by the titles he uses than by the colour of his hair. We know Nihilus never cared for the Sith (but no one ever mentions teachings), meaning he didn't care for the body of the Sith (its physical numbers), that's why Kreia mentions he'd consume the Sith eventually. Otherwise, how would you (literally) consume an ideal?

 

Secondly, the Sith ideal stresses freedom from restraints, even restraints from the force (but as we've seen this is not possible). At the end of the day Nihilus became a slave to power, and not because he was weak, but because ambition for power is a universal weakness amongst all great Sith. Nihilus just followed through all the way to frightening bitter end, and paid the price.

 

There is no rule governing who a Sith Lord is once the title has been attained. You only stop becoming a Sith Lord once you've either denounced their code or turned from the dark side: two things Nihilus didn't do.

Edited November 1, 2006 by Darth Blivion

[Jorian Drake]

I agree with Architect so it is 2-1!

 

We victory

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He is a Darth, Kreia names him Sith, so he is a Sith Lord.

[Guest The Architect]

To be a Sith is to be unencumbered by all laws, including those of the Sith, especially if they hinder someone from attaining power. As Kreia mentioned, 'Sith Lord' is merely a title that dresses an individual, in other words you can no more identify who a person is by the titles he uses than by the colour of his hair. We know Nihilus never cared for the Sith (but no one ever mentions teachings), meaning he didn't care for the body of the Sith (its physical numbers), that's why Kreia mentions he'd consume the Sith eventually. Otherwise, how would you (literally) consume an ideal?

 

Secondly, the Sith ideal stresses freedom from restraints, even restraints from the force (but as we've seen this is not possible). At the end of the day Nihilus became a slave to power, and not because he was weak, but because ambition for power is a universal weakness amongst all great Sith. Nihilus just followed through all the way to frightening bitter end, and paid the price.

 

There is no rule governing who a Sith Lord is once the title has been attained. You only stop becoming a Sith Lord once you've either denounced their code or turned from the dark side: two things Nihilus didn't do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nice argument, except for one thing. You say 'no one ever mentions teachings'. Did you read any of the quotes from Kreia about Darth Nihilus that I posted? Look again...

 

Kreia: "And he cares nothing for the Sith, or ITS TEACHINGS...or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well. There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped; the breach must sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can hope to stop. One cannot have power of that magnitude that her master possesses and still think and perceive the universe as we do, as most of us do.

Edited November 1, 2006 by The Architect

[vaxen83]

Well, Nihilus basically sees everything as almost the same to him and barely beyond that or any further consideration of his own actions (Not sure if he is even aware at all of own existence).

[jodo kast 5]

I strongly agree with Architect's thinking, he even makes a valid example to further solidify his argument. Sorry Blivion, but Architect's right. You can't be a Sith Lord and not follow the Sith teachings, if you do, you're no more than a Dark Jedi, but in Nihilus case, he doesn't really care, he's just out for himself.

 

And it's now 4-2.

Edited November 2, 2006 by jodo kast 5

[Xard]

Architect wins the thread

[Darth Blivion]

Nice argument, except for one thing. You say 'no one ever mentions teachings'. Did you read any of the quotes from Kreia about Darth Nihilus that I posted? Look again...

 

Kreia: "And he cares nothing for the Sith, or ITS TEACHINGS...or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well. There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped; the breach must sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can hope to stop. One cannot have power of that magnitude that her master possesses and still think and perceive the universe as we do, as most of us do.

[DeathScepter]

There is no denying that Nihilus is a powerful dark sider.

 

 

But Is he still a Sith Lord?

 

 

There is a huge difference between a dark sider and a Sith Lord.

 

 

Yes you can be a dark sider and be eviler and much darker than a Sith Lord.

 

 

When Nihilus stopped caring about the Sith teaching, he stopped being a Sith Lord.

 

 

 

 

The philosophy/religion is in their teachings as well in their actions.

 

 

 

 

Nihilus is a pure dark sider not a Sith Lord.

[Xard]

Well, sith must be very dumb if they think destroying everything and starving to death is "destiny"

[jodo kast 5]

Well, sith must be very dumb if they think destroying everything and starving to death is "destiny"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. Accept it, Blivion. He may have been a Sith Lord, but hstopped once he gave up their teachings. He's no more than a darksider with hunger.

 

What does this prove: Someone shouldve told Nihilus to get a Snickers bar or two.

[Darth Blivion]

There is nothing to agree with. He didn't stop becoming a Sith Lord, the proof is in his actions. Though he didn't care for the Sith teachings (this is not a requirement to be a Sith Lord), he retained two things that identified him as a Sith Lord, his title and Sith subjects.

 

A Sith Lord doesn't need to follow Sith teachings, if he has attained the power he sought after. The Sith teachings exist only to help a Sith acquire his power, and among the most important teachings of the Sith is sacrificing anything in your path to power, including - in Nihilus case - Sith ideals if they no longer serve their purpose.

 

Nihilus didn't stop becoming a Sith, he stopped being restrained even by the Sith ways. Why do you think the Sith often destroy each other? Because the acquisition of power takes precedence over all things, including teachings. Nihilus simply became almost completley inhuman in his quest fo power.

[Darth Kavar]

Well it depends on who you might call a "Sith". If one who uses the Dark Side to achieve his goals then Traya is Sith. If being Sith is about power and rule over the galaxy then the moment Traya stops being a Sith is when Nihilus does the super force push on her (w00t)

 

Anyway - Nihilus at first seems the most powerful though he was outsmarted by yet another Sith - Traya, who made him fight the Exile - who is the only one who Nihilus could not drain.

Power is the influence one has on something.

 

Traya's feat was manipulation - she had the power to use someone elses power :D plus she had some of her own power like Force Lightsaber wielding and the Ultra Life Drain (w00t) - but seriously in K2 you see her presenting the most power. The only moment she gets owned is when Sion beats the s**t out of her though it looks like she outsmarted them by 'acting dead' cuz I don't see any reason why they'd leave her alive.

 

Revan - we don't know much of his true power and the whole why he built his own Sith Empire and if it even worked exactly how he planned. If everything works out just as he planned then he is as powerful as Traya or even more.

 

Nihilus - is a slave of his own power powerful? He's like a giant hungry dinosaur having no equal in the jungle just that he sufferes hunger all the time so he must eat other creatures. So he does what he wants to because he is hungry... but does he want to be hungry?

 

Atris? But I thought Atris had gone to Katarr. (w00t) (w00t)

Malak? Without Revan he'd have nothing. He'd be nothing

Sion? He has like... the power to hold himself together and that's about it <_<

Bandon? Like someone already noticed - he's only good for pushing Sith Troopers that happen to be on his way :D

[Guest The Architect]

I can't change the evidence and much as I'd like to agree with you I can't. For two reasons:-

 

1) The Sith Code specifically stresses freedom from all things, even ideals (if they hinder your path to power). And that's exactly what Nihilus does, he is enslaved by the power he sought to attain but at the same time is absolutely free of constricitons like the Sith code. He doesn't care about the Sith, but you have to remember, to be a Sith you must be willing to sacrifice everything in the path of your destiny.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm...did I miss something here? The Sith Code specifically stresses freedom from all things, even ideals (if they hinder your path to power). Are you sure about that? Care to show me a piece of dialogue which supports this claim? Not that I don't believe you or anything, but I don't recall the Sith code ever implying this.

 

Besides, you're missing the point here. If the Sith code does specifically stress freedom from all things, then Nihilus is not a Sith Lord in KotOR II, because he was a slave of power and therefore was not 'free from all things'.

 

2) The Sith are in essence dark side practicioners who disagreed with the Jedi code. At the end of the day as Kreia mentions, 'Sith Lord' is only a title, (and this is the part you need to understand) once Nihilus attained the title of Sith Lord, it was his alone to discard. No one can claim that he isn't a Sith Lord anymore, unless Darth Nihilus discards his/this title.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But that is what you must understand, that Sith is only a 'title'. A title does not define who you are, it's what you do/say in your life that defines that. I mean, if I was some fictional character in the SW universe and I knew the Sith code/teachings, I could call my-self Darth -----, bear the title of a Sith and keep that title, but if I do something that completely goes against or disregards the teachings of the Sith, then I'm not really a Sith am I?

 

Since as you've said, the Sith code stresses freedom from all things; Nihilus has done something which completely goes against being a Sith, he became a slave to power. What you have to understand is that if you are a slave to power, then you are not a Sith, since as Yuthura said, "The Force serves us."

 

That is what the Sith are all about, using the Force as a tool to fuel their power, making the Force serve them, not the other way around. Nihilus started out with this intention, he started out as a Sith, but when he became consumed by hunger, by power; to the point where it enslaved him, he stopped becoming a Sith.

 

As I've said, titles are irrelevant in the case of a Sith. It's what you do/say that defines who you are, not mere titles...

 

What you are failing to understand is that Darth Nihilus' title is his alone, he did what was necessary to attain that title and he kept it. So nothing changes that unless Darth Nihilus chooses to change it. He doesn't care for the Sith, but that is only because they are a hindrance to the power he wishes to attain. Nihilus is simply what most Sith Lords fear to be, the farthest extension of Dark Side corruption.

 

Besides, the dark side is not subject to the Sith Code, as it is only a single pathway to the dark side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm...correct me if I'm wrong but if someone uses the dark-side of the Force but doesn't care about and doesn't follow the Sith teachings (like Nihilus does) then aren't they Dark Jedi...not Sith?

 

And you're forgetting that Nihilus is already dead. He no longer has the mental ability to keep or disregard a title. Remember, he doesn't think and perceive the galaxy like a normal person does, he just views everything as food for him. "All life, exists to feed your power."

 

There is nothing to agree with. He didn't stop becoming a Sith Lord, the proof is in his actions. Though he didn't care for the Sith teachings (this is not a requirement to be a Sith Lord), he retained two things that identified him as a Sith Lord, his title and Sith subjects.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The proof is in his actions? Umm...WTF are you talking about? He is already dead, he is a slave to power, he is a dead spot in the Force, he doesn't care about the Sith or their teachings and he believes that all life exists to feed his power...and you call that proof that he is a Sith Lord? Okay.....

 

A Sith Lord doesn't need to follow Sith teachings, if he has attained the power he sought after. The Sith teachings exist only to help a Sith acquire his power, and among the most important teachings of the Sith is sacrificing anything in your path to power, including - in Nihilus case - Sith ideals if they no longer serve their purpose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm...no. You see; Malak, Exar Kun, Palpatine, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord and Bane all attained the power they sought after. Did any of them 'not care about the teachings of the Sith' and 'stopped following the teachings of the Sith' when they attained the power they sought after? The answer is no.

 

Besides, I have yet to see any proof that you don't have to follow or care about the teachings of the Sith once you have attained the power you sought after. That sounds a lot more like a Dark Jedi, not a Sith.

 

You can't bare the title of a Sith and not care about/not follow their teachings at the same time. That doesn't make any sense. It's either one or the other, and in Nihilus case, he doesn't care about the teachings of the Sith. The Sith philosophy is a belief. If you don't care about it/don't follow it, then you are not a Sith. Period.

 

Nihilus didn't stop becoming a Sith, he stopped being restrained even by the Sith ways. Why do you think the Sith often destroy each other? Because the acquisition of power takes precedence over all things, including teachings. Nihilus simply became almost completley inhuman in his quest fo power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The acquisition of power does take precedence over all things amongst the Sith, but that is in their teachings. But you have to remember the Sith saying...

 

"May the Force serve you well."

 

During KotOR II, does the Force serve Nihilus? No, Nihilus serves the Force, not the other way around, thus not making him a Sith. If you can name another Sith Lord who didn't follow/didn't care about the teachings of the Sith and if you can prove that you don't have to care about and follow the Sith teachings to be a Sith Lord, then I might be more convinced by your argument.

 

Perhaps we need an official word from the devs to 'clear this matter', otherwise I fear this debate will never end...

Edited November 6, 2006 by The Architect

[Xard]

Well, Nihilus doesn't serve Force but in other ways Architecht is right.

[treylyn_baleur]

Darth Bane leaves them all behind, especially after reading that new book! (BTW that book is truly awesome!) (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, Drew Karpyshyn)