Volourn Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 "but they are still art to me, at least some of them, Planescape torment being an example." You seem to be implying that in order for something to be art it has to be good or of really high quality. That is illogical. A painting, for example, is art whether it's a prize winning one or some doodle by a kindergarten kid. So, *if* one considers games arts not only should 'high quality' games be art (FO, PST, BG, or whatever) so should the bad ones (POR2, TOEE, DTU, etc.). DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Arkan Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 "but they are still art to me, at least some of them, Planescape torment being an example." You seem to be implying that in order for something to be art it has to be good or of really high quality. That is illogical. A painting, for example, is art whether it's a prize winning one or some doodle by a kindergarten kid. So, *if* one considers games arts not only should 'high quality' games be art (FO, PST, BG, or whatever) so should the bad ones (POR2, TOEE, DTU, etc.). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Way to disregard his first statement. Nice move. "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta
Volourn Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 Yeah, 'but anything cna be art as long as someone thinks of it' is not a statement worth bothering with. It's so vague, and all compassing it's a waste of time. I think sticking my finger up my nose than in my butt and licking it is art so it's art. L0LLERZ! DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
astr0creep Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 (edited) I think sticking my finger up my nose than in my butt and licking it is art so it's art. L0LLERZ! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Only if you are filmed or painted then viewed by someone, even yourself. A bird sh1tting on my car isn't art but if I expose my car as a canvas for the sh1t then bird sh1t becomes art. :D Edited September 27, 2006 by astr0creep http://entertainmentandbeyond.blogspot.com/
Zagor Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 (edited) You seem to be implying that in order for something to be art it has to be good or of really high quality. That is illogical. No, I don't think it has to be of high quality. If you think TOEE is art, then fine, it is art. To you. the reason I think Torment is art, is because of the the depth of the story, and the surreal setting. And I think it was developed with the intention of being art as well. Do you, Volourn, think a 5 year old childs drawings of flowers and stick-figures are art? I think they are. But bad art. I think sticking my finger up my nose than in my butt and licking it is art so it's art. L0LLERZ! Yes, that is art if you think it is... but very very bad art in my opinion Edited September 27, 2006 by Zagor
LadyCrimson Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 I consider the graphic designs in games to be artistic (sometimes, heh). The game design itself, I consider more akin to the art of, say, writing fiction. The thing about games, to me, is that they're really composed of more than one kind of 'art' - taken as a whole, I would consider games to be entertainment art (acting, they say, is an art, and that's for entertainment purposes)...which to me is quite different from the old-style 'classic' art defintions of Monet paintings and giant statues of David, or whatnot. “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
blue Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 (edited) Btw: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...+consider+video Some of that merits rereading. Such as this: two observations: 1) the "what is art?" crowd angers Gromnir to no end. 2) the fact that games development is in its infancy is hardly a valid excuse for lack of artistic merit. Gromnir don't care what the hell you think is art, but if you cannot recognize art, and if you is not sure that such 'n such piece, movie, book is art, then we does not envy the paucity of your existence. we ain't saying that there is some objective standard of art, but if you not got some standard of your own... if you lacks the capacity to be moved by tragedy or beauty as rendered on canvas or on celluloid, then you might as well be dead. if you lacks the convictions to declare what is and ain't art to you, then you is a coward... and might as well be dead. as to the second point... film, in its infancy, were probably MORE likely to approach beings art than what we sees today. in its infancy film were unbounded by expectations and preconceptions. audiences were willing to pay to see 45 seconds of film showing a a middle-aged okie woman washing her child. try that today and see what happens... no matter how sublime is the moment you captures on film. as josh were pointing out in another thread, there is an accepted crpg narrative style... and in spite of the suggested youth of the medium, there has developed many such norms that has become so widely accepted as to be like unto rules. Edited September 27, 2006 by blue
Dark_Raven Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 I never said you wer ebigoted towards Christianity alone. I said you were a bigot. It's clear you are a bigot towards all religions; but reserve a special hatred for Christianity and Christians specifically. Let's be honest here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> R00fles! Hades was the life of the party. RIP You'll be missed.
Llyranor Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=...ype=mov&pl=game (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it)
Slowtrain Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 Planescape torment being an example. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That was predictable. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Dark_Raven Posted September 27, 2006 Posted September 27, 2006 Art is what I was taught in art class. Games weren't. So, they aren't art. Game over. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Your game may be over but this isn't. Games are a form of art whether you like it or not. Just look at the beautiful scenery in Baldur's Gate. Perfect. Hades was the life of the party. RIP You'll be missed.
Volourn Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 (edited) "Just look at the beautiful scenery in Baldur's Gate. Perfect." beautiful maybe; but not art. Edited September 29, 2006 by metadigital DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Nartwak Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 "Just look at the beautiful scenery in Baldur's Gate. Perfect." beautiful maybe; but not art. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Drawn images are not art. Got it. P.S. Narrative texts are not art. Nor are video images. P.P.S. Muisc is not art.
Dark_Raven Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 "Just look at the beautiful scenery in Baldur's Gate. Perfect." beautiful maybe; but not art. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Art You lose. Hades was the life of the party. RIP You'll be missed.
Slowtrain Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Rembrandt or Picasso vs generic crpg artist. If you want to equate both as "art", then I think the use of the word art becomes pretty meaningless. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Nartwak Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Rembrandt or Picasso vs generic crpg artist. Yes, artists don't produce art. Good show. If you want to equate both as "art", then I think the use of the word art becomes pretty meaningless. I'm sorry that you are in an pretentious fugue, I hope you get better someday. Art is merely the expression of creativity or imagination. The significance or quality of the work is incidental. Perhaps you should consult a doctor to help you with your stunted language development before you end up like Volourn.
LadyCrimson Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Some artists may be more gifted and historically/culturally recognized than others, but that doesn't make the creative works of the masses not art. “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
Hell Kitty Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Labelling the games I play (or parts of those games) as art doesn't change my experience with them in any way. As such I find the apparent need to label them art, or not art, pointless and a bit wanky.
Slowtrain Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 I'm sorry that you are in an pretentious fugue, I hope you get better someday. Art is merely the expression of creativity or imagination. The significance or quality of the work is incidental. Perhaps you should consult a doctor to help you with your stunted language development before you end up like Volourn. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not trying to define art. I don't even know if I could. I'm merely trying to find a line of distinction between art that might be shown in a museum and art that is not. If you choose to define art as the product of any creative human endeavor then that's OK with me. And by that standard games are certainly art. I'm certainly not trying to force any particular definition of art down anybody's throat. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Llyranor Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 It being in a museum makes it credible! (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it)
alanschu Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 (edited) I plan on creating a museum of video games! I'll have the CRPG wing, complete with a history of the Ultimas and all that jazz. Discuss its evolution, and so on. Of course the first exhibits most readily available will be the twitchy action genres. We all know those people have poor attention spans so they'll have to be able to get in and get out quickly. Edited September 28, 2006 by alanschu
Dark_Raven Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Different strokes for different folks. Hades was the life of the party. RIP You'll be missed.
Slowtrain Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 A friend of mine once said that a museum is where you put art after you kill it and stuff it. I thought it was kind of cute put that way. Flip, but cute. I don't know if I agree with it though. We all know those people have poor attention spans so they'll have to be able to get in and get out quickly. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> as long as the line moves fast it won't be a problem! Just keep the text on the exhibits to a minimum, please. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
blue Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 I'm merely trying to find a line of distinction between art that might be shown in a museum and art that is not. Try using adjectives. If words fail, hire an appraiser.
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