Wait I dont get It

[Zelean]

Kreia did say that the Council cut Exile off from the Force, which was false...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, she didn't. Suggested, yes.

 

 

****

 

E: Wait... the Jedi did this to me?

 

K: {Challenging}What did you believe? That you suddenly lost your connection with the Force without reason?

 

[Purgatorio]

BTW, why do you believe Kreia to be your enemy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If this is a question directed at me ( I think it is)

Answer,sort of;

Well if Kriea is trying to kill The Exile on Malachore would that not make her an enemy.... even if she's not a sith (I won't go into that argument here)she still clearly wants you dead,and the force for that matter...but that dose not mean she should be shot on,er cut in two on sight.Of course not,what sort of person would do that?

So she's an enemy but she's not..... I hate simplifications.

I still think however that if the Exile was to kill Kreia the same way as he/she killed the masters then that would have killed him or her self .Wouldn't it draw on the bond?

There is no death there is the force .So the bond might not have been broken at Kriea's death.She's probably still creeping around The Exiles head criticising the periodic "psychotic urges" .

[Zelean]

If this is a question directed at me ( I think it is)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It was, yes.

 

Kreia never wanted the Exile dead! Just the opposite. The Exile was the only proof that her teachings were right.

 

Kreia always was nothing more than a teacher, a mentor. It's a while since I studied ancient Greek teaching methods, but Kreia uses the same method as a Greek school (Pythagorean?). A teacher is just a guide in the teaching process. On student's query answers only with a hint of a riddle. And when the student surpasses the teacher he must discard the teacher (break their bond which would otherwise slow him down). Analogy: baby at birth. Of course, the student is still not mature enough at that point, so the teacher needs to 'make' him do it.

[chris the jedi killer]

The bond is a bunch of bull****

[Purgatorio]

If this is a question directed at me ( I think it is)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It was, yes.

 

Kreia never wanted the Exile dead! Just the opposite. The Exile was the only proof that her teachings were right.

 

Kreia always was nothing more than a teacher, a mentor. It's a while since I studied ancient Greek teaching methods, but Kreia uses the same method as a Greek school (Pythagorean?). A teacher is just a guide in the teaching process. On student's query answers only with a hint of a riddle. And when the student surpasses the teacher he must discard the teacher (break their bond which would otherwise slow him down). Analogy: baby at birth. Of course, the student is still not mature enough at that point, so the teacher needs to 'make' him do it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I should have elaborated on that more .In the final confrontation you have to fight her or die, basicaly apathy is death in the end she didn't want the force dead or the you dead.For reasons we all know.

So are you saying the final confrontation to continue the analogy cut the cord,seems logical.It's similar to Quatra and Juhani. ) but The Exile isn't as whinny .An apprentice must surpass the master in order to grow and the bond had served its purpose,as did the apprentice.

[Xard]

Exactly. And Kreia believes in sith teachings. Student must overcome the master. If you wouldn't be strong enough to kill her, she would've been dissapointed and killed you. End of the story

 

edit: Oh, Purgatorio said same thing

Edited June 16, 2006 by Xard

[Zelean]

You're saying a sith lord -wants- to be killed (by his student), Xard?!

 

I think Kreia wanted to die for two reasons:

1. She was nihilist.

2. The Exile needed to feel a great loss again so that his/her wound in the force is a) healed or, b) amplified.

[Calax]

You're saying a sith lord -wants- to be killed (by his student), Xard?!

 

I think Kreia wanted to die for two reasons:

1. She was nihilist.

2. The Exile needed to feel a great loss again so that his/her wound in the force is a) healed or, b) amplified.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hardly... what he's saying is that she EXPECTED it. It's well known that in the EU the sith have a cycle, Master takes disiple, master teaches disiple, disiple becomes powerful, disiple takes power for his own and kills master, disiple becomes the master... wash rinse repeat. Hence because she was sith she expected you to eventually follow the sith ways.

[vaxen83]

Hope bond effects don't really become part of K3's story.

[Xard]

You're saying a sith lord -wants- to be killed (by his student), Xard?!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, strongest one rules.

 

Calax explained it quite nicely.

Edited June 17, 2006 by Xard

[DAWUSS]

Kreia did say that the Council cut Exile off from the Force, which was false...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, she didn't. Suggested, yes.

 

 

****

 

E: Wait... the Jedi did this to me?

 

K: {Challenging}What did you believe? That you suddenly lost your connection with the Force without reason?

 

[Calax]

Kreia did say that the Council cut Exile off from the Force, which was false...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, she didn't. Suggested, yes.

 

 

****

 

E: Wait... the Jedi did this to me?

 

K: {Challenging}What did you believe? That you suddenly lost your connection with the Force without reason?

 

[Accelerator]

I remember that Kreia says to the Exile that when battle is upon them, their minds are well-prepared to repel any damage caused by their force bond. Perhaps this was true when Traya dies on Malachor V.

 

And Lonna Vash's explanation also seems believable.

 

However, in KOTOR 1, If you are LS/Neutral, you can kill darkside bastila on the Star Forge. And nothing happens to Revan when he/she does that. It pretty much proves both Vash's and Kreia's explanation, that

 

a) The minds of the people involved in the bond are fully prepared to resist any damage arisen out of the force bond

 

or/and

 

b) When one member of the force bond turns alignment, then the bond can fade and eventually break.

 

However, in both Traya and Bastila's case, not a long time had passed since they took the identity of Sith, which would probably mean that both Revan and the Exile's minds were able to resist the force damage.

 

Just a thought.

[Darth Hades]

However, in both Traya and Bastila's case, not a long time had passed since they took the identity of Sith, which would probably mean that both Revan and the Exile's minds were able to resist the force damage.

 

Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It all sounded good until this part. I wonder what you mean by "not a long time had passed since they took the identity of Sith".

 

In the game and for atleast 5 years prior to kotor 2, it was understood that Kreia was always a Sith, since the days she trained Revan. She could just mask her true intentions very well with a somewhat darker grey philosophy. Where as Bastilla was DS for barely a day before you met her at the temple.

[Marka Ragnos]

She wasn't a Sith when she trained Revan. It's what happened with Revan that made her go Sith.

[Accelerator]

However, in both Traya and Bastila's case, not a long time had passed since they took the identity of Sith, which would probably mean that both Revan and the Exile's minds were able to resist the force damage.

 

Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It all sounded good until this part. I wonder what you mean by "not a long time had passed since they took the identity of Sith".

 

In the game and for atleast 5 years prior to kotor 2, it was understood that Kreia was always a Sith, since the days she trained Revan. She could just mask her true intentions very well with a somewhat darker grey philosophy. Where as Bastilla was DS for barely a day before you met her at the temple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I know, its a bit strange to me too, but I'm not so good at logical reasoning.

 

Anyway, what I meant to say that in KOTOR 1, Bastila was not dark-sided when she created that bond with Revan. However, when Revan turns LS and Bastila turns DS, Lonna Vash's explanation comes true that the bond fades over time when one member's alignment changes from LS to DS or vice versa.

 

For that matter, Kreia herself was not a Sith when she created the bond with the Exile. She was herself recovering from the damage that Sion/Nihilus had done to her (stripped her of the force powers). At this point the Exile is pretty much Neutral as well. Kreia was masking herself with the Grey philosophy when she made the bond with the exile, and since the bond was created when she was Grey, Lonna Vash's rules apply.

 

As such, when she becomes Darth Traya, she reveals her true intentions, becomes dark sided again. And this is when the bond starts to fade. I doubt it would be completely eroded by the time Exile fights her on Malachor V, but perhaps Kreia's statement applies here and the Exile's mind was prepared to resist any backlash caused by Kreia's death due to their bond. The same may apply for Revan and Bastila as well (but this never happens since Bastila canonically does not die).

 

However, the above reasoning would not apply for the darkside exile. I don't know how to explain the DS exile killing Kreia, except for the Sith philosophy that every apprentice proves his strength by killing his/her master.

 

Again, these are just my thoughts.

Edited June 18, 2006 by Accelerator

[Jediphile]

It's true that Vash mentions in her cut dialogue that if one person falls to the dark side, then the bond between them can be cut.

 

However, Vash also restates Zez-Kai Ell's concerns about the unusual nature of the Exile's bond with Kreia.

 

Vash: "Yes, as many Masters and Padawans become with time.The bond can be broken in many ways. If one falls to the Dark Side, the bond may fade and eventually break. This is why, when gripped with fear, Kaah was unable to feel our bond. He assumed I was dead.He is dead. We were mentally bonded.Kaah was pulled to the Dark Side through his fear. He could no longer feel our bond.It is painful to lose one to whom you are bonded. But it is not fatal.{concerned}That is most unnatural. This bond you share with Kreia is not like any I've ever heard of. How did it come to be?{pensive}Look within for the answer. We are each solely accountable for everything in our lives."

 

So while Vash has some interesting bits of information to tell, her knowledge on the topic does not serve to explain the bond in question - she's a mystified and concerned about it as Zez-Kai Ell and the Exile himself are, and as much at a loss to explain it too.

 

I must also question the theory that the bond between Exile and Kreia is somehow "diluted" when the Exile forms bonds with other characters, because the effects of the bond are still clearly present no matter how many companions the Exile forms bonds with - the double effect of some force buffs (speed, resistance, etc.) on both Exile and Kreia if just one of them uses it remains present in the game continually until Kreia leaves the group, so her bond with the Exile would seem as strong as ever.

 

I do find the last bit of Vash's comments above very interesting, though. But I don't think I want to open that can of worms again. Suffice it to say that I think this apparent plothole is purposefully left unexplained to serve as a plot device when it's explained in KotOR3

[Zelean]

I do find the last bit of Vash's comments above very interesting, though. But I don't think I want to open that can of worms again. Suffice it to say that I think this apparent plothole is purposefully left unexplained to serve as a plot device when it's explained in KotOR3 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You mean you want someone else to open that can instead?!

 

Which part of the comments do you refer to? "This bond you share with Kreia is not like any I've ever heard of.", perhaps?

 

Where Vash unlike others mentions Kreia specifically and doesn't recognize the name?

 

Oh sorry, wrong topic

[Jediphile]

I do find the last bit of Vash's comments above very interesting, though. But I don't think I want to open that can of worms again. Suffice it to say that I think this apparent plothole is purposefully left unexplained to serve as a plot device when it's explained in KotOR3 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You mean you want someone else to open that can instead?!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Certainly not - perish the thought

 

Which part of the comments do you refer to? "This bond you share with Kreia is not like any I've ever heard of.", perhaps? 

 

Where Vash unlike others mentions Kreia specifically and doesn't recognize the name?

 

Oh sorry, wrong topic

[Taran'atar]

When you kill Kreia at the end of the game how come id didnt effect the exile?

I thought because of the bond if one dies the other dies too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm reciting from memory, but the conversations goes:

 

Exile: It felt like my hand had been dipped in carbonite! [or whatever other response]

 

Kreia: Then the sensation you'd feel upon my death might be less than that, though much quicker.

 

Exile: You mean this bond could be fatal?

 

Kreia: Perhaps. It is not a thing I would wish to test, and nor should you.

 

The whole "one dies, the other dies" thing was never set in stone. Even if she wasn't lying outright, Kreia made no claim to being certain what effect the death of one would have on the other.

Edited June 20, 2006 by Taran'atar

[Zelean]

I'm reciting from memory, but the conversations goes:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow, your memory's great!

[Zelean]

As for the comment I find out interesting, it was the last bit of what Vash says: "Look within for the answer. We are each solely accountable for everything in our lives."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So I thought. The bond between the two remained very special until the very end.

 

It makes you wonder what Kreia was to the Exile at one point in their lives.

[Purgatorio]

Indeed and what if the Exile had formed a bond in Exile...

[ghosta]

When you kill Kreia at the end of the game how come id didnt effect the exile?

I thought because of the bond if one dies the other dies too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Earlier Kriea tells you that durring combat you are safe because you gaurd against the other's pain

 

so when You kill Kriea you are gaurding yourself from Kriea's pain

[ghosta]

Exile gave up his force connection and lived without it.  Kreia manipulated events in her favor so that upon your first re-connection to the force she was the first person you met, forming such bond.  But your ability to form bonds with others eventually diminished your's and kreia's bond.  The more formed with others, the weaker is your bond with Kreia.

 

The moment with Visas could have finished kreias connection.

 

A theory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

that would also explain why Kriea doesn't want the party to grow any large

she whants to keep her bound as strounge as powerful

to use a leavrage which she does if you are DS