Who will win the console war?

[Deraldin]

...best showing was Assassin's Creed, a game originally announced for the Xbox360, rumored to be running on an Xbox360 at E3...

Any links to back up this claim, perhaps?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For what's it's worth, I've heard the rumour, but I can't recall where I first saw it.

[kumquatq3]

It was just pre-rendered stuff, right? Who cares what it was running on.

[Llyranor]

ony: Key PS3 launch titles hit in 2007

Friday 19-May-2006 3:37 PM Exclusive: Sony's David Reeves admits key PS3 launch titles like Heavenly Sword will now appear in 2007

 

Sony Computer Entertainment Europe CEO David Reeves has revealed several key PS3 launch titles including Heavenly Sword, Formula One and Motostorm, will miss the November 17 launch day on PS3 and now appear in 2007.

 

However, Reeves also revealed that the company plans to cast a wide net during the initial PS3 launch window, saying that "for the first time we are not going to go just for hardcore gamers".

 

Speaking exclusively to CVG at E3, Reeves explained that Sony is "going to have a portfolio of social gaming" for the launch window, Singstar and EyeToy an integral part of this battleplan. It's not clear whether Singstar on PS3 will be out on launch day, but it'll hit "certainly before Christmas", said Reeves, with "an EyeToy one [game] after Christmas". He added: "EyeToy is not playable at the moment, but it will come before March 2007."

 

Advertisement:Precisely which PS3 titles will actually be available on launch day remains a mystery however, although Reeves told us that Insomniac's Resistance: Fall of Man "will certainly be a launch title". Worryingly, he said that Heavenly Sword, one of the PS3 titles at E3 that actually impressed people, won't hit until "after Christmas", as will the new Formula One game plus off-road racer Motorstorm.

 

Sony Computer Entertainment CEO Kazuo Hirai has assured gamers that Sony expects as many as 15 games to launch with the PS3. So, er, going by the social gaming aspect, that's Resistance: Fall of Man and 14 versions of head-to-head Carol Vorderman's Sudoku then.

 

Anyway. Despite Sony's pledge to reach a broad audience with PS3 during its launch window, Reeves admitted that appealing direct to the hardcore games playing fraternity will quickly become vital for the company in the next-gen console war.

 

"Without being too arrogant about it, I don't think we worry too much about building up the hype in the first six months, but where the rubber hits the road is going to be when all those hardcore gamers have bought PS3", said Reeves. "They have also bought Xbox 360 and they have probably bought Nintendo Wii as well."

 

However, Reeves maintained that shifting PS3s in the early days won't be a problem, such is the strength of the PlayStation brand: "We have built up a certain brand equity over time since the launch of PlayStation in 1995 and PS2 in 2000 that the first five million are going to buy it, whatever it is, even it didn't have games."

 

We'll be running our full interview with David Reeves next week. Keep 'em peeled for the full PS3 monty.

 

I love the flamboyant arrogance.

Edited May 19, 2006 by Llyranor

[Haitoku]

Argh, I don't like it either.

[Darque]

That makes me want to put off buying one for as long as possible... just to spite them.

 

Besides, it's not like I "need" any of their games now... and at the rate the Hexbox is going it'll have more games that interest me...

 

If only they'd fix that heating problem.

[Judge Hades]

Get a cooler. Stuff it with ice. Wrap PSU in a plastic bag. Place PSU in cooler. Overheating solved.

 

I saw a used Premium X Box 360 going for $325 at the local shop today. It was housed between an Odysessy computer and a Sega Dreamcast.

Edited May 19, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Haitoku]

I don't plan to buy one at launch. Absolutely nothing that is worth playing (to me) will be available... But around that time, so much PS2/DS goodness is coming out. :D

Edited May 19, 2006 by Haitoku

[Llyranor]

There are no launch titles, remember?

 

I don't see why anyone who actually focuses on games instead of blindly supporting Sony would get a PS3 before 2007.

[Haitoku]

Yup, but you know there will be people paying for one at ten times the value on Ebay.

[Llyranor]

The 360 was selling for over 1000 on Ebay, wasn't it? We're talking about a much larger playerbase here. Go go arrogance, meh.

[alanschu]

Get a cooler.  Stuff it with ice.  Wrap PSU in a plastic bag.  Place PSU in cooler.  Overheating solved.

 

I saw a used Premium X Box 360 going for $325 at the local shop today.  It was housed between an Odysessy computer and a Sega Dreamcast.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heh, how much was the Odyssey.

[Judge Hades]

The Odyssey was selling for $35 and in case someone was wondering the Dreamcast was selling for $40. They had a modified X Box and a old style PS 2, both at $99.

Edited May 19, 2006 by Judge Hades

[kumquatq3]

Yup, but you know there will be people paying for one at ten times the value on Ebay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My buddy works at gamestop and has a standing reserve for PS3s for me and himself just so we can buy them and sell them on EBAY.

 

Go Capitalism

[Craigboy2]

Yup, but you know there will be people paying for one at ten times the value on Ebay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My buddy works at gamestop and has a standing reserve for PS3s for me and himself just so we can buy them and sell them on EBAY.

 

Go Capitalism

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here! Here! Stealing from the rich and giving it to the not as rich.

[Calax]

The first rule of gamestop is you don't talk about gamestop...

 

Literally... gamestop is so worried about the workers unionizing that they won't let employee's have friendships with coworkers outside of the store AND they can't post that they are part of the chain... they have a super secret internet forum too...

[10k fists]

Games also tend to get smaller as developers spend more time with the hardware.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are several documented cases (especially on the PS2), where developers that made several sequels or several games on the same engine showed a decrese in disc capacity for each release.

[10k fists]

Blu-Ray is a gamble, no doubt about that, but you're looking at today and not in 2-3 years. I bought my Playstation 2 late. I got it when I decided that our household needed a DVD player, and it turned out that the Playstation 2 wasn't much more expensive than a stand-alone DVD player. If Blu-Ray DVD turns out to be the format of choice for the future, then the same thing will happen again in a few years.

 

That's the gamble though. HD-DVD players are much cheaper and offer (to the average consumer) identical content. While still having the "DVD" name for familiarity.

 

Check out the demo movies of Gran Turismo HD if you really believe DVD-9 has anything on Blu-Ray when it comes to loading times. A 2x Blu-Ray compares to a 12x DVD when it comes to reading speed. Although, the first few years I'm sure we won't even get to see any games on Blu-Ray DVD's since the Blu-Ray supports ordinary DVD's too, but Playstation 3 will most probably have a 2x Blu-Ray. The difference is that Blu-Ray has a constant reading speed, while an ordinary DVD player has variable reading speeds. In the end, Blu-Ray usually wins (tortoise-hare syndrome).

 

Don't really need to watch the GT demo, a 2X Blu-Ray player is only as fast as a 12x DVD ROMs minimum read speed. A 3x Blu-Ray player would be a little more on par, and there's no way Sony can afford to put that in the PS3, I also have my own personal doubts that a 2x drive will even be put into the console. They're already having to make up for Cell and the Blu-Ray tech to begin with, slapping a $600+ disc drive in the console just won't happen in my opinion.

 

Also, all games on the PS3 will be on Blu-Ray discs, Sony is mandating it to all developers even though they won't need the extra space. It's a way for Sony, in my opinion, to help decrease manufacturing costs for the Blu-Ray discs. I think they're counting on the PS3 to help them get costs low enough to try and compete with HD-DVD. Don't think it'll happen though, the cost difference is just too dramatic.

 

I agree that only the hardcore early adopters will buy the Playstation 3 for the Blu-Ray.. in the first year or so. Again you're not looking at the future. DVD will become obsolete, it's only a matter of time. If Microsoft are lucky, it won't be during the lifetime of the Xbox 360. If they're not so lucky, then the Xbox 360 is going to suffer for the choice of DVD. Blu-Ray plays both DVD and Blu-Ray DVD.

 

The thing is, I am looking at the future, and it doesn't have Blu-Ray as the media format of choice. The average consumer just isn't going to drop two times the price for a player that offers no noticeable playback quality. Nor is the average consumer going to drop two times the cash for a player to play movies on something that doesn't actually say "DVD". Name recognition will be key to HD-DVD winning the upcoming format battle.

 

People buying the PS3 (aside from the few hardcore early adopters) are going to buy the console to play video games, especially the casual gamer. The fact that Sony is shoveling their new format down the consumers throat from the start is just a bad choice. The games don't need all the extra storage space, and only developers that are actually trying to fill the disc will actually do so. Developers that just make games will have little to no problems working with DVD-9. The better choice would have been to copy Mircosoft's model, and just release an optional Blu-Ray player for those few people that actually want to watch the movies. Having any kind of "next gen" media format in your console is stupid right now, as one of them is going to lose, and in doing so, you just forced what consumer base you have to shell out a load of cash for something that won't be utilized.

 

Someone (who I forgot to quote) wrote that DVD's aren't even standard on PC's yet (which they mostly are in Europe..). I just wanted to point out that we're talking about consoles here though. Consoles have been using DVD as a standard format since 2000. It's been a good six years, but I'm not sure how long DVD will last. Technology has a way of advancing every now and then..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While I didn't say this comment, I do have a response. Technology has advanced, from 2 gig DVD discs to the current DVD-9 format. On top of that, newer compression technology has been created to add even more information onto the format while still maintaining the clarity people require. So yes, "DVD" has been here for six years on consoles, but it has been evolving on a regular basis, and is more than capable of sustaining another generation of console gaming. The game engines have become more stream line, newer technology has been created on that front especially with the UE3, also proceedural synthesis is being used on a regular basis now which saves disc space, but requires better access time (a benefit for DVD-9).

[kumquatq3]

The first rule of gamestop is you don't talk about gamestop...

 

Literally... gamestop is so worried about the workers unionizing that they won't let employee's have friendships with coworkers outside of the store AND they can't post that they are part of the chain... they have a super secret internet forum too...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

...um...not that I'm aware of and I have 2 buddies who work there....

[Judge Hades]

OH NOES! SOMEONE LEAKED ABOUT GAMESTOP! OH NOES! (w00t)

[StillLife]

It's been a good six years, but I'm not sure how long DVD will last. Technology has a way of advancing every now and then..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not going anywhere anytime soon. Yes, in 3+ years maybe/possibly Blue Ray will be the new, must-have, digital storage device format. However, letting the fact the PS3 uses Blue Ray influence your decision in purchasing it over an Xbox or Wii while it's still a new, unproven format would be retarded. I just think you may be jumping to conclusions when stating its importance to people buying a console.

[alanschu]

The Odyssey was selling for $35 and in case someone was wondering the Dreamcast was selling for $40.  They had a modified X Box and a old style PS 2, both at $99.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Haha, must be for it's antique reasons. I should dig out the old Odyssey in my parents' garage.

[alanschu]

Games also tend to get smaller as developers spend more time with the hardware.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are several documented cases (especially on the PS2), where developers that made several sequels or several games on the same engine showed a decrese in disc capacity for each release.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to back this up.

[mkreku]

Don't really need to watch the GT demo, a 2X Blu-Ray player is only as fast as a 12x DVD ROMs minimum read speed.  A 3x Blu-Ray player would be a little more on par, and there's no way Sony can afford to put that in the PS3, I also have my own personal doubts that a 2x drive will even be put into the console.  They're already having to make up for Cell and the Blu-Ray tech to begin with, slapping a $600+ disc drive in the console just won't happen in my opinion.

Where did you come up with your numbers? A 12x DVD's minimum speed is (theoretically) 0x! A 12x DVD only reaches 12x reading speed during the last few seconds of the disk (the outer edges), while it is considerably slower on the inner parts of the disk. A Blu-Ray keeps constant speed throughout the entire surface of the disc. So while a 12x DVD should be a lot faster than a 2x Blu-Ray on paper, in reality that's often not the case. Turtoise-Hare syndrome.

 

The reason I believe the Playstation 3 will have a 2x Blu-Ray is because anything faster would be insanely pricey, but anything less would mean the Playstation 3 wouldn't be able to play Blu-Ray movies (which demand 2x Blu-Ray), something which Sony has stated it would.

 

Also, all games on the PS3 will be on Blu-Ray discs, Sony is mandating it to all developers even though they won't need the extra space.  It's a way for Sony, in my opinion, to help decrease manufacturing costs for the Blu-Ray discs.  I think they're counting on the PS3 to help them get costs low enough to try and compete with HD-DVD.  Don't think it'll happen though, the cost difference is just too dramatic.

Sony has been mandating it? I must have missed this. Any links?

 

When the Playstation 2 was released, some of the first games for it came out on CD even though the system supported DVD, probably for cost reasons. I just assumed the same thing would happen with the Playstation 3, as the first Blu-Ray discs will be expensive and the first games are usually not in need of that much extra storage space.

 

Technology has advanced, from 2 gig DVD discs to the current DVD-9 format.  On top of that, newer compression technology has been created to add even more information onto the format while still maintaining the clarity people require.  So yes, "DVD" has been here for six years on consoles, but it has been evolving on a regular basis, and is more than capable of sustaining another generation of console gaming.  The game engines have become more stream line, newer technology has been created on that front especially with the UE3, also proceedural synthesis is being used on a regular basis now which saves disc space, but requires better access time (a benefit for DVD-9).

Procedural techniques and compression can only take you so far though, as there's a real, physical limit on the DVD (around 9 GB). As games creep upward to resolutions of 1920x1080 (1080p) they will eventually need more space than that. High definition graphics/sounds (and FMV movies) are going to eat up those 9 GB pretty fast.

 

What do you mean by "game engines have become more stream line"? Game engines have become a LOT more resource hungry over the years. From only having to pump out 2D-sprites in 320x200 to pumping out 2048x2048 textures in full 3D in 1920x1080 resolutions, has put a huge pressure on data transfer rates and storage capacity. This will only get worse/more demanding (or better, depending on which way you're looking at it) in the future. I really don't understand what you mean by "more stream line".

[10k fists]

Where did you come up with your numbers? A 12x DVD's minimum speed is (theoretically) 0x! A 12x DVD only reaches 12x reading speed during the last few seconds of the disk (the outer edges), while it is considerably slower on the inner parts of the disk. A Blu-Ray keeps constant speed throughout the entire surface of the disc. So while a 12x DVD should be a lot faster than a 2x Blu-Ray on paper, in reality that's often not the case. Turtoise-Hare syndrome.

 

Well, I guess I should have figured someone would cry about the minimum speed being zero (not reading the disc)... I really thought there would be more common sense here. Link to a graph showing read speeds for Blu-Ray and DVD ROMs. In reality a 2x Blu-Ray drive falls in the lower portion of a 12x DVD ROMs read speed, and in that same reality, a 12x DVD ROM will access the disc quicker than a 2x Blu-Ray drive will the vast majority of the time.

 

The reason I believe the Playstation 3 will have a 2x Blu-Ray is because anything faster would be insanely pricey, but anything less would mean the Playstation 3 wouldn't be able to play Blu-Ray movies (which demand 2x Blu-Ray), something which Sony has stated it would.

 

The core PS3 version does not even have a HDMI connection that's required for Blu-Ray playback.

 

Sony has been mandating it? I must have missed this. Any links?

 

link

 

"Kutaragi also said that PS3 games would be released only on Blu-ray discs..."

 

When the Playstation 2 was released, some of the first games for it came out on CD even though the system supported DVD, probably for cost reasons. I just assumed the same thing would happen with the Playstation 3, as the first Blu-Ray discs will be expensive and the first games are usually not in need of that much extra storage space.

 

Sony needs to push Blu-Ray as quickly as possible for any chance to beat out HD-DVD. So while the majority of games on the console will never need Blu-Ray discs, they will all be released on them.

 

Procedural techniques and compression can only take you so far though, as there's a real, physical limit on the DVD (around 9 GB). As games creep upward to resolutions of 1920x1080 (1080p) they will eventually need more space than that. High definition graphics/sounds (and FMV movies) are going to eat up those 9 GB pretty fast.

 

Proceedural synthesis does what it needs to do, and lowers the requirements for storage capacity. So yes, it "only takes you so far", but it does the job it's required to do. The art assets for 1080i and 1080p are identical. So the games resolution will not be "creeping upward", as many games for the Xbox 360 support 1080i natively. As I said previously, only developers that try to fill the disc will do so, such as those that put in an insane amount of CGI sequences. Amazingly enough, that's only a few developers that only release handful of games per generation. With engines being the way they are now, more "in-game" cinematics will be used, by choice, across all three consoles.

 

What do you mean by "game engines have become more stream line"? Game engines have become a LOT more resource hungry over the years. From only having to pump out 2D-sprites in 320x200 to pumping out 2048x2048 textures in full 3D in 1920x1080 resolutions, has put a huge pressure on data transfer rates and storage capacity. This will only get worse/more demanding (or better, depending on which way you're looking at it) in the future. I really don't understand what you mean by "more stream line".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not really going to write down everything the UE3 has done to streamline development and storage space. So you can either believe me or not, it doesn't really matter.

Edited May 20, 2006 by 10k fists

[Blank]

HD-DVD has the name "DVD" in it. People aren't rational, they don't pick what is best, just what they are comfortable with and what sounds nice. HD-DVD sounds more familiar than Blu-Ray. I think the name alone will greatly help HD-DVD appeal more to people than Blu-Ray.