NWN2 only 20 hours long?

[Gromnir]

"Quality is key."

 

well then, we is kinda getting somewhere... nope. subjective notions o' quality has gotta be taking a backseat to a bit o' unpleasant reality. BG2 were a big seller... and iwd were bis' best seller. what llyranor or Gromnir thinks of as well-remembered is not of much concern to anybody... but it seems obvious that those games did something right, no? on the bio boards BG2 is still held up as the measuring stick 'gainst which all other games is measured... in spite of fact that another bg2 is improbable nowadays given the costs of game development.

 

regardless, your hypothesis that games will get better as they get shorter has not played out so far, and so we still cannot sees where you is finding any optimism in the realization that nwn2 will be shorter than any pc crpg in recent memory. you personally hates "fluff" and you has noted that games always gots fluff and that length not make better. fine. you can play a five hour game and be really satisfied... goodie for you... but such a recognition does not in anyway change what should be an obvious realization: that a decrease in game hours does not in any way increase the likelihood of a game having your "quality" requirement.

 

at the opposite end of the spectrum, a game likes oblivion shows that simply having lots of content IS a selling point for many. lone wolf were the one who told us that he enjoyed playing oblivion, in part, simply to see all the neato scenery. get more loot and do more quests... extend the time playing in a gameworld one likes... clearly these things makes a game memorable to many.

 

"It's not a matter of "we didn't bitch enough, so they did it anyway" it's costs and what can be done within a certain amount of time and with a certain amount of cash. It's not like these guys aren't trying their damndest to give us a strong product...I mean, it's a reflection of themselves...so why not make it the best as can be?"

 

how does unbridled optimism make it "the best as can be?" and yeah, a little more b*&^%$#@ & moaning may help. such things coupled with bad sales is exactly the reason we got Trials of the Luremaster after the HoW debacle... though we never actually played it.

 

"How does directy attacking the developer help?"

 

it probaly doesn't... but we did not suggest such a thing. please go back and review our advice. in any event, telling the developers that a 20 hour game is okie dokie with you when you actually want a longer game sure as hell ain't gonna help. 'course, as we keeps pointing out over and over again, more important than vocal criticism is your purchasing behavior.

 

 

"I disagree with the notion that games have gotten shorter and shorter."

 

okie dokie

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 23, 2006 by Gromnir

[alanschu]

...

 

"ALWAYS"

 

again we comes back to your word.  120 hour games.  80 hour games.  60 hours... 40... now 20?  "ALWAYS."  games has gotten shorter and shorter and they still gots your fluff.  you noticed any improvement as they gets shorter?  if nwn2 has fluff will your reasoning then require a reduction to 10?

 

bah.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I disagree with the notion that games have gotten shorter and shorter.

[Llyranor]

that a decrease in game hours does not in any way increase the likelihood of a game having your "quality" requirement. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And that's the bottom line, only it goes both ways. The correlation is minimal. A short game that sucks most likely does so because of sucky design. Lots of long games suck. PoR2 is 60-hrs long. Sucky suck suck.

 

Is my optimism in NWN2 founded on its length, or on my views on the developers' consistent level of quality?

 

at the opposite end of the spectrum, a game likes oblivion shows that simply having lots of content IS a selling point for many. lone wolf were the one who told us that he enjoyed playing oblivion, in part, simply to see all the neato scenery. get more loot and do more quests... extend the time playing in a gameworld one likes... clearly these things makes a game memorable to many.

Many people also did not enjoy Oblivion. I doubt its length had anything to do with it.

[LoneWolf16]

at the opposite end of the spectrum, a game likes oblivion shows that simply having lots of content IS a selling point for many.  lone wolf were the one who told us that he enjoyed playing oblivion, in part, simply to see all the neato scenery.  get more loot and do more quests... extend the time playing in a gameworld one likes... clearly these things makes a game memorable to many.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But, I also hate the fact that Oblivion is, more or less, a meandering exercise in pointlessness. I'd be in love were it a more focused experience with a true purpose besides finishing the short MQ then walking around for another 80 hours helping random people with their inane quests. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the game, quite a bit, since I'm still playing, but there's a void there a definite ending and feeling of accomplishment would certainly fix.

 

Which is what I'm hoping for NWN2. That feeling of having done something and there being a definite, satisfying ending, with engaging characters, along with a strong story. If they fit that into 20 hours, then I'm happy. Very happy, in fact.

 

In modern CRPGs replayability appears to be a focal point...realistically, they aren't going to be near as long as their predecessors, like BG2, but they've got a much better chance of being played again...and again...and again...like Blank said earlier.

[Llyranor]

Basically, is the story going to feel complete? This isn't something you can arbitrary tag to a game without knowing anything about its story design.

[Atreides]

Here's a random thought - if you make a game by having many nodes/choices at each step/fork/quest you could end up with a lot of material but few steps.

 

An example would be fleshing out detailed ways to solve the major quests by different ways using different classes, choices etc. The choices are the forks which end in nodes.

 

Imagine a fanning-out pattern, or at least a straight line with lots of mini-fans at each fork. That could possibly be a lot of material but the number of periods (length of game?) would be short. Compare that with a more linear game - less choices would just mean stretching the effort into a straight line - possibly more periods (straight line vs fan). Short finish but lots of replay material for the hardcore dudes? Perhaps.

 

If you're looking for your "40 hours" like I certainly am, the time may be in replaying the different outcomes.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Atreides

[Volourn]

"Yeah a 2 hour film might be better than a 4 hour film, but I've never played a 20 hour RPG and considered it to be even remotely good."

 

So... you didn't enjoy FO? That was 10-20 hours (30 if you really stretch it, as low as a couple of hours if you push it).... and, for most boardies in these parts, it's one of the bets games ever (myself included).

 

 

Anyways, in an ideal world, I'd want an awesome game with hundred sof hours of play. But, if NWN2 OC is 20 or so hours of awesomeness, I'll enjoy it just fine. Besdies, NWN2 isn't *only* about the OC anyways. That may be Obsidian's main focus; but it's not the only focus as evidenced by the work they've done on the toolset itself.

 

I'll take a NWN2 OC at the quality of KOTOR2 (with all iots faults) over any of the hudnreds of hours of horribbless that ES games give (though thankfully, I never play them that long, lol).

[LoneWolf16]

Basically, is the story going to feel complete? This isn't something you can arbitrary tag to a game without knowing anything about its story design.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't. Merely stating what I'm hoping for.

[Blank]

Right, Oblivion is a free-roaming RPG, whereas we are talking about a CRPG, that is, NWN2 is a game in which the story is focused on more than free-roaming or any other prefix to the RPG part of the genre's title.

 

In Oblivion, any given quest only lets you develop a relationship with a character for as long as that quest goes on, and as we know, the quests are numerous, but not lasting of the whole game (with exception of the main quest, where the relationships consist of the reporting and retrieving part of the quest, so one is not with the main quest characters much anyway).

 

CRPG's like... Kotor 2 for example, let one stay with any character for the whole game, and the relationships seem to be able to build throughout the game. Almost every other action I did, one of my party would speak to me about it. That is great, immersive. Good job, Obsidian, now make it better

 

Anyway, the axis of evil agreeance of Blank, Llyr, and Wolf in this matter continues.

[Llyranor]

I'm not associating with you dorks.

[Blank]

Sadly, you don't have a say in that. People associated you, you can't unassociate yourself now that you are in so deep.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Blank

[Darque]

Wow... this thread went all explody

[alanschu]

I did get involved

 

[LoneWolf16]

I'm not associating with you dorks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:'(

 

So short of a sentence...yet so hurtful.

[Dark_Raven]

Wow... this thread went all explody

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In a cool way or not so cool?

[Darque]

The jury is still out

[Cantousent]

Oh, be glad you have some folks in agreement with you, Llyr. Wolf says, "OMG!* I can't believe I agree with Blank!!!!11!"

 

How about this, if you spent less time being judgemental about Blank's religion, you'd realize that you two probably have quite a bit in common. Like RPGs? Like TOMBS? Like following computer games? Hell, you're both males, probably between your late teens and mid-twenties, and you both live in the United States. Good Lord.

 

*The G in OMG represent "God," but Lonewolf only uses it as an expression as he would not want anyone to think he believes in something as silly as God.

 

Now, as far as hours in the game go, I really do want more. Still, the point is that I'll settle for fewer hours in a single play as long as those hourse are quality. If the game has sufficiently quality, I'll replay it. So, it really isn't a matter of trying to browbeat the developers.

 

On the other hand, if they don't pull through, then we should put their feet to the fire. I'm serious. Unless Obsidian wants to let Bioware do the heavy lifting indefinitely, they simply must be willing to feel some heat for their mistakes. They want to close the doors on these fora? That's fine, but it won't stop folks from talking about a project as important as NWN2. If they include some short, lackluster campaign out of the box, their street cred will take a hit.

 

Sure, NWN2 will sell well. It's pretty much guaranteed. A couple great sellers won't keep them in business forever. So, 20 hours or 60 won't matter much, but the game needs to be solid. It needn't be awesome, but it must be good.

 

...But hey, I'm probably not the average gamer. I don't know much about all this stuff. Nonetheless, I'm going to be here making myself heard no matter what. I plan on pre-ordering the game. I'm decided. They'll get my dime. This time.

[Dark_Raven]

The jury is still out

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We shall see. I will say this again I like long houred games.

[Blank]

Also, Grom, not buying their game will cause them to go out of business, which means they cannot try again. So if I wanted to help Obsidian make better games, not buying their games is an ineffective way to do so. I am not proposing something else, but I am criticizing your method of making companies give better games.

 

Wait, weren't you the one who rallied all the Troika fans to not buy the company's games? Hades had better not find out about this...

[Hurlshort]

Sweet, I hate long games. 20 hours is perfect for me. Heck, I just want a solid original campaign. I don't care if it's only 10 hours, if it's entertaining then I am happy. I don't measure quality based on minuted played, I measure solely on the experience.

 

Besides, NWN2 is not just another single player RPG. They could nix the entire OC and I'd still buy the game, because the mod community is outstanding. The OC is just a warm up for the real good stuff.

[Cantousent]

You should only buy a game if you have a reasonable expectation that you'll like it. Right now, I have a reasonable expectation that I'll like NWN2. I'm an easy sell. I like most games I play, although some are harder to enjoy than others. Gromnir is entirely correct in saying you should not buy a game that does not include at least some features you enjoy.

[Blank]

True. However, the context is that I have played K2 and liked it. I want more. Therefore, I will buy this different game that I hope will have the same quality or better.

 

So what if I wanted an extremely amazing game, no, the BESTESTEST EVAR!!!!!!??????????!!!!!? Grom's advice would cause me to miss out on what I hope is a decent game.

 

if you don't wanna see more developers making shorter games, then tell them so. the fan loyalty thing is something we don't get. this is your opportunity as a consumer to speak to developers and tell 'em what you want and don't want. do you want a game you can finish in a single weekend? if so, then tell obsidian that 20 hours is good and great... but if you want more, then spit and curse and fume (w/i reason) and don't give a damned inch.

((...later))

good for you... but as we mentioned, your actions will be speaking much louder. sarcasm on the boards mean far less then actual sales... so if you really want games longer than 20 hours, then don't buy the game if you really wanna heed our advice.

Hmm, actually, he is talking about length, not even talking about quality. In that case, he is writing off games for length, whereas were I to take his advice, i would apply it to quality, that is, i wouldn't settle for anything less than THE BESTESTEST GAMEUH EVUH!!111111!!!!!@@!!!!!!!

[Cantousent]

Not entirely. Heaven knows Gromnir can defend himself, but he equates a long title with value on one hand and a certain length, something long enough to include a sufficient number of choices and quests and such, with quality. In other words, it seems that his point is that 20 hours will probably not suffice to do justice to the game in terms of quality.

 

I disagree with the idea that we should write off the game because it only lasts some 20 hours. Witholding your custom because the game is only 20 hours makes length and length alone the only yardstick (hahaha) of quality. Moreover, I agree when it comes to KotOR 1 and 2.

 

I also agree that every game need not be the "best game ever."

[kirottu]

And I thought my previous post cut in to the very idea of this thread in quite profound way...

 

Anyways, I see this as a blackslash from Kotor 2 and all the critism it

[LoneWolf16]

Oh, be glad you have some folks in agreement with you, Llyr.  Wolf says, "OMG!*  I can't believe I agree with Blank!!!!11!"

 

How about this, if you spent less time being judgemental about Blank's religion, you'd realize that you two probably have quite a bit in common.  Like RPGs?  Like TOMBS?  Like following computer games?  Hell, you're both males, probably between your late teens and mid-twenties, and you both live in the United States.  Good Lord.

 

*The G in OMG represent "God," but Lonewolf only uses it as an expression as he would not want anyone to think he believes in something as silly as God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When did I do that? I believe my exact words were "Anyway, I agree with Blank. Which strikes me as odd." How'd you get all that from two sentences?

 

Sheesh, I just don't find myself agreeing with him all that often...mostly because he's more agreeable than even me, which somehow makes him less agreeable to me personally. Ya know what? I really don't care about the religion thing. Whatever gets you through the day that doesn't involve hurting/killing somebody else, I'm cool with. That, and the concept of a "god" isn't silly. It's obviously got some merit to it, otherwise it wouldn't have lasted this long into human civilization. Now, the idea that god is an old man with a big white beard, white robes, and sandals is definitely worthy of a chuckle.

 

And, the religion itself is great. Lots of positives to it. Only beef I have is with the people who either use the political system to force it on others, or those who harm others in the name of it...which is an almost direct contradicion of Jesus' teachings, come to think of it.

 

I may throw out the occasional barb in religions direction, particularly Christianity since it's the one I'm most familiar with, but I genuinely have no problem with it.

 

Did I mention that seemed uncalled for?

 

 

On Topic: Good to have people agreeing with me on this...'tis a rarity.