Was Bastila really the main character?

[Gromnir]

"Of course the characters are left in a blank state, they are for the players to fill in."

 

which is why the protagonist in such a game ain't near as important for story development than is the npcs. round and round we go...

 

funny that the "half-baked" system sold so well. the hybrid choice seemed to satisfy folks who wanted both a chance to customize their character and the folks who wanted their character, the protagonist, to be the focus of story. is tough to do both, but most folks seem unsatisfied with either extreme.

 

well, at least you has dropped the deus ex machina bit. baby steps we is making.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Drakron]

I see Throne Of Bhall camoe really paid off for BioWare ...

[Gromnir]

"cameos" not make what you has said any less silly, so we not see point. did kotor sell? did ps:t sell? we has noted many times that ps:t is our favorite crpg, but one of the common complaints from folks who didn't like ps:t was that they felt like they was playing bis' character rather than their own character. tiffin makes this comment often 'nuff... but again, we is just repeating what Gromnir has already stated.

 

*shrug*

 

try to come up with some new material. others have tried the cameo bit and it has never worked well for them.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I was pretty dissapointed when I played my second game as a nuetral char that would make a big swing to the Dark Side once I "discovered" I was actually Revan.

I wanted to go full dark lord mode right there on the Leviathin -or at least back at the Ebon Hawk, but that had to wait until the Bastila confrontation at the Temple.

Not really sure what you mean here. You can tell people you are Revan once you find out yourself. You can be as evil as you like at any point in the game and accumulate darkside points.

 

I never broke character enough to notice the significance of the temple. So can someone fill me on what it is ?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

sorry chum, but the only stories being told in iwd is npc stories... the protagonist advances the story while remaining incidental.

 

describe the protagonist.

 

HA! Good Fun!

IWD dosnt rely on having a special character to drive the story along. The party the player creates is the catalyst for the events that follow. However everything about the party is upto the player to determine as long as they play along with whatever dialogue choices are presented in the game.

 

With IWD you get out what you put in. Spend hours writing backgrounds and coming up with your parties motivations and IWD is a rich roleplaying experience. Spend an hour rolling up stats and hacking your way to the end without worrying about characters and its a very good combat game.

 

Its pretty obvious that the more the designers take control of the character the easier it is to tie that character into the plot. The difference is that stuff like KOTOR, PST and to a lesser extent BG would completely fall appart if you allowed the player to come up with their own characters.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I like both systems, the "blank" character that I can create and the "generated" character that I can get into knowing but something in the middle usually does not work but I neither have the freedom to make a character or a fully developed character ... I have a half baked one (SWKotOR).

KOTOR does work. Its about how the revelation that you are Darth Revan reflects on the character you have been "pretending" to be upto that point.

 

In some ways its very clever because it snatches your identity away and throws up all sorts of questions at the same time. The weakness is that the full impact dosnt come across unless your playing a good guy.

[Drakron]

"cameos" not make what you has said any less silly, so we not see point. did kotor sell?

Its a Star Wars game ... it always sells, besides Diablo also sales ...

 

did ps:t sell?

 

Not much but its a RPG reference and it was more cursed by the marketing department that anything else ...

 

we has noted many times that ps:t is our favorite crpg, but one of the common complaints from folks who didn't like ps:t was that they felt like they was playing bis' character rather than their own character. tiffin makes this comment often 'nuff... but again, we is just repeating what Gromnir has already stated.

 

*shrug*

I dont like PS:T that much, more due I dont like planar stuff very much and that I think also reflected on liking the game or not, Planescape setting does that .... either you like it or you dislike it, not much middle ground.

 

Final Fantasy games sell a lot, and all the recent ones have generated characters.

 

As I said I like both systems.

 

try to come up with some new material. others have tried the cameo bit and it has never worked well for them.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Oh, I touched a nerve ...

 

Remenber ... baby steps ...

[Gromnir]

what makes you think you hit a nerve? is good advice that you can take or not.

 

star wars games always sell? you might wanna check on that. regardless, kotor brtoke every xbox record, including some previous star wars titles.

 

so, marketing killed ps:t? what hogwash. got anything to back that up?

 

you ain't making them baby steps no more... seemed to have lost you 'gain. for a moment you was seeming to get the essential difference 'tween games with identifiable protagonists and ones without... then you lost again. 'least there is no getting side-tracked with deus ex machina again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Darque]

star wars games always sell? you might wanna check on that. regardless, kotor brtoke every xbox record, including some previous star wars titles.

 

Exactly.

 

Some people seem to overlook this. <_<

[Drakron]

Star Wars game have brand recognition, they always have a market.

 

Sure there were flops, most due to Star Wars game quality going lower since X-Wing Alliance (that was not that good) was released.

 

That SWKotOR broken Xbox sales records is not too hard, Xbox have a lack of good titles and I predict that Fable is going to break the record as well.

 

I doubt SWKotOR broken the FF X-2 JPN release sales record that was more that enough for it to became a "platimun" title.

 

As for PS:T that is, unfortunatly true ...

 

The cover box art is ugly and not exactly atractive to buy a game with that ugly mug on the front, I almost return it when I seen it.

 

Also it appears that reviewers got a alpha build and nobody told then that was not the final so they ignored PS:T because that alpha build was not very good.

 

And Grommir I know the diference, Squall is a defined character as the "Amazon" of Diablo 2 is not.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Star Wars game have brand recognition, they always have a market.

 

Sure there were flops, most due to Star Wars game quality going lower since X-Wing Alliance (that was not that good) was released.

 

That SWKotOR broken Xbox sales records is not too hard, Xbox have a lack of good titles and I predict that Fable is going to break the record as well.

 

I doubt SWKotOR broken the FF X-2 JPN release sales record that was more that enough for it to became a "platimun" title.

 

As for PS:T that is, unfortunatly true ...

 

The cover box art is ugly and not exactly atractive to buy a game with that ugly mug on the front, I almost return it when I seen it.

 

Also it appears that reviewers got a alpha build and nobody told then that was not the final so they ignored PS:T because that alpha build was not very good.

 

And Grommir I know the diference, Squall is a defined character as the "Amazon" of Diablo 2 is not.

They do. But they still flop the same as any other title on occasion.

 

The Rebel Assault series on the GC does rather well.

 

Thats true the lack of good titles on the RPG/Strategy front on the Xbox can only help.

 

Well considering the PS2 has more units in Japan than Xbox has worldwide. Do you really find that a suprising turn of events?

 

PST was a game between two worlds. It tried to be a JRPG(more specifically FFVII)but at the same time allow the perceived freedom that you get from a traditional CRPG. One of the worst games I've had the displeasure of playing. I should have called it quits at the oblivion ending since I had had actually "won" at that point.

Being an 18 rated game is in most cases an instant sales killer. Regardless of what your external packaging looks like.

[Gromnir]

"And Grommir I know the diference, Squall is a defined character as the "Amazon" of Diablo 2 is not."

 

but you not seem to get how they is used different in developing story. how very sad.

 

btw, if you read your star wars stuff 'gain, you will see how you contradict self a few times. you notes all the lame xbox titles and observe that kotor breaking records is no biggie... but recalls how you mentioned how well star wars games always does? was more than a couple xbox star wars games out on the xbox, no?

 

*shrug*

 

personal anecdotes 'bout box art is hardly evidence that ps:t marketing was bad. as to your conspiracy theories 'bout alphas and betas...

 

HA!

 

please show us links to stories in gaming media that warned folks away from ps:t.

 

one reason ps:t was such a disappointment from a commercial perspective was that it was a major release. bis spent big money advertising ps:t. loads of print adverts and all kinds of pre-release stories and interviews and swag. blame on marketing?

 

ps:t was a buggy mess that not give players any opportunity to alter their character's appearance. it was set in a d&d world that most gamers was unfamiliar with and seemingly unwilling to explore. additionally, game was very text heavy and had crappy combat. is a surprise that game did as well as it did. the game was loved by some folks, but there was more than a few good reasons for the average player to dislike or even hate ps:t. blame on marketing is a cop out if ever we heard one.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Drakron]

but you not seem to get how they is used different in developing story. how very sad.

 

?

 

Are you sure ...

 

Squall role was deep within FF VII story, without him there would be no FF VII story (at least not as written).

 

Amazon was just "oh look at me, I am a Amazon" that had no more impact of "I am doing this" and she does not push the story along more that doing stuff.

 

I know the diference thank you ...

 

Why the sudden desire for I having to write a master thesis on such characters, Squall role in FF VII was very much the story, without his evolution of character he would not fallen in love with Rinoa and so would not try to rescue her and so Ultramercia would not release Abdel, also there is the childhood bacground, the circle (Ultramercia passing her powers in the past and setting off the circle), Squall end up giving the name of SeeD ...

 

Its too much and I dont think that I need to go around explaing the diferences of Squall and Diablo Amazon, just point out as examples of such diferences.

[Volourn]

Drakron, you don't make sense. First you say SW always sales yet youa dmit SW games have flopped. Your exuses aside for those flops; how cna you even pretend your first statement is true when you state the seocnd as well?

 

It's true that SW - as any brand name - has an alreayd amde audience that guarantess a mininum number of sales; but as proven many times; a game that is licnesed can't just live on "fanatics".

 

And, oh, Squall had absolutely ZERO impact on FF7's story.

[Drakron]

Oh?

 

I said Star Wars games always sale because of brand recognition, even the "flops" sold more units because of being a "Star Wars" game .

 

I did not said they flops were sales success because of Star Wars logo ...

 

And you are right .... stupid roman numbers ...

[Logan]

I never broke character enough to notice the significance of the temple. So can someone fill me on what it is ?

SPOILERS

 

 

 

 

 

You can convince Bastila to follow you instead of Malak when you meet her at the end of the Temple area, if you do this you officially decide to become the dark lord of the Sith, if you are currently light side you will swing all the way to dark side. Back at the ebon hawk you tell your party of this choice, some split (Carth), some stay with you. and you can force Zaalbar to kill Mission, based on his blood-debt to you, all pretty evil stuff. This also alters some of the end game sequence, Bastila uses the battle meditation to help destroy the republic fleet, and you end up facing Malak alone, end game cut scene is altered as well, with the Sith being victorious.

 

Overall, the Dark side option is well fleshed out for the last in-game sequence.

 

My problem was that you are not able to reclaim the Dark Lord of the Sith title once you find out your are Revan. Yoiu should have this option -although I can understand why, from a programming perspective, they would not want to spend the Resources $$$ to do this.

[Darque]

I can't see how you could be able to reclaim it after finding out "who" you were.

 

Just because your name was Revan... didn't mean you still had Revan's level of power... and the Sith don't follow the weak.

 

Plus you would have still needed to find the Star Forge.

[Gromnir]

"Amazon was just "oh look at me, I am a Amazon" that had no more impact of "I am doing this" and she does not push the story along more that doing stuff."

 

duh.

 

Gromnir already noted that with such protagonists the story follows the protagonist, but it actually developed by the npcs.

 

...

 

'course, you disagreed with this earlier... brought up some silly notion 'bout deus ex machina.

 

with way you seem to reverse self and miss obvious it should be Gromnir posting those repeated question marks.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Drakron]

No Grommir.

 

Deux Ex Machina is a NPC that comes along out of the blue and solves things and that is what I mean by "stealing the show", they became the focus of the story when they pull a Deux Ex Machina, when PC is in put in cutscene mode and the game is push foward by a NPC that solves things, not the PC.

 

And even if you are somewhat correct that "the story is developed by the NPCs" that also happens when the PC is the focus of the story, FF VIII is a example because if not for a NPC that creates the bridge of past-future a lot of things would be off and I think you agree that Squall was FF VIII driving point.

[Volourn]

Drakron wins there.

[Logan]

I can't see how you could be able to reclaim it after finding out "who" you were.

 

Just because your name was Revan... didn't mean you still had Revan's level of power... and the Sith don't follow the weak.

 

Plus you would have still needed to find the Star Forge.

At that point in the game you can take out the entire Sith academy no problem.

 

You would want to find the star forge either way.

 

In fact, it would have been better to make Korriban only available after the Leviathin. That way it could be played in two ways -the light side infiltration -as in the game. Or the Dark Lord come to reclaim his/her title.

[Darque]

That's not my point though, "Revan" got his/her butt handed to her by Malak... to the Sith that meant Malak was now the master... so without killing Malak, I can't see how you could "reclaim" the title just by being Revan.

[kefka]

In fact, it would have been better to make Korriban only available after the Leviathin

 

Korriban should be done last, but what happens to all those dialogue choices (especially with Uthar & Yuthura) if you go before the Leviathan? I assume they would not happen, which definitely makes Korriban less effective than going as Revan.

 

The 2 Sith masters at the academy are the most interesting characters in the game for me, and even acknowledge who you are (after the Leviathan).

 

I only wish you had more control over your character at this point than being forced to wait for Bastila at the temple. There's no reason why you'd need her to follow the dark-side path and kill Malak. But she was needed for the story.

[tripleRRR]

That's not my point though, "Revan" got his/her butt handed to her by Malak... to the Sith that meant Malak was now the master... so without killing Malak, I can't see how you could "reclaim" the title just by being Revan.

How did Malak defeat Revan? All he did was try to kill him/her by blowing his/her ship up. I fail to see how that would make Malak, who failed at it, Lord of the Sith with Revan running around.

 

 

TripleRRR

[Darque]

But you're not Revan anymore... you're watered down, jedi re-written persona in a Revan body.

 

Other than a few flashbacks... you have no knowledge of revan that someone else didn't give you.

 

Heck, if you convince Yuthura of the fact you're Revan I think she tells you this.