Elven6 Posted March 16, 2006 Author Posted March 16, 2006 Your twisiting around what I say, I never said he was a god but what I am saying is he made their lives better.
Pidesco Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Julian if you recall Lenin modified it to suite the needs of the Russian people, many communist countrys probably followed Lenin's rule. Marxism-Leninism was Marxism with a revolution and a transition period(with a totalitarian government) attached to it. As such, it was an excellent excuse to start a dictatorship and was not created to suit the needs of the Russian people(or any people, for that matter). "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist I am Dan Quayle of the Romans. I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands. Heja Sverige!! Everyone should cuffawkle more. The wrench is your friend.
kirottu Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Links? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> To what? If I link to something, aren This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Meshugger Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Hey I could if I wanted, just need to go to India they had a cultural exchange during their Alliance I mean their are a lot of people who speak Hindi in the former republics. Also if you know how to read a book you would notice people thought the new Tzar could help them but he kept the wealth for himself and let his people starve. I didn't say Genocide was neceassry, I am saying many of the people who die are revolutinarys which means they fight in a battlle were they can die. In lamens terms Change= disapointment= rebellion= fighting= death for many <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't follow. Change = disappointment = rebellion = fighting = death ==> communism? So, if a change equals disappointment equals rebellion equals fighting equals death implicates communism? Since every statement from 'change' to 'death' equals one another, thus: Death => Communism? I think your logic is flawed. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
Elven6 Posted March 16, 2006 Author Posted March 16, 2006 (edited) Thats diffrent, Hitler was on drugs Soul seeker if things went the way Lenin wanted their would be no Stalinism, which means their probably woulden't be a dictatorship. But thats dealing with the "What ifs" Under Lenin they were testing Communism, their was no Dictatorship involved, when he made a decsion the people didn't agree with he changed it. I forgot what this law was but some of the population disagreed with it so they abolished it. Now lets see that happen in a democratic soceity? Why hasen't Bush apologized for the whole New Orleans thing (Ignoring him, the things his wife told them, etc) Hey I am a one man army cut me some slack hard to keep up 1 of my posts spawn 10 of urs Edit: Your trying to correct me but your just going against your previous posts, also Wikipedia has it in their logo "Anyone can edit" Edit 2" Thats not my logic, thats REALITY rebellions make death Edited March 16, 2006 by Elven6
metadigital Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Communism is a wonderful idea, in lollipop land. Unfortunately, people cheat. And power corrupts, and ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY. So any practical implementation of communism will fail, because those in power will extort those not. You obiusly don't know the principals of Communism, If everyone recives a job they will produce things for the country, has the country sells these items they make money For instance Cuba has a good market in Cigars, they make the Cigars and people from other countrys buy them. Now if most of the population produces these cigars how much money would they make? They ain't cheap you know! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Here's the problem. Group responsibility equals no responsibility. What incentive does the farmer, for example, have to inprove her yield, year-on-year? Doesn't matter: the farmer gets paid the same as the doctor as the street sweeper: enough not to starve. Sure, ever year the REPORT an increase, and because every one in the chain of command has an vested interest in pretending that the increase is real. Under the Tzar, Russia was a net exporter of grain. Under communism, Russia was a net importer of grain. Secondly, for the system to work, you have a principal-agent problem on the grandest scale, with all executive power centralised in one politburo. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
julianw Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 (edited) Unfortunately, people cheat. And power corrupts, and ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Didn't Socrates say that 'only those who absolutely dread of having power should have it'? (Offtopic, I know. But the thread moves too fast for me since I am also eating my lunch at the moment.) Edited March 16, 2006 by julianw
kirottu Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Edit 2" Thats not my logic, thats REALITY rebellions make death <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Please explain your logic. This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Meshugger Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Thats diffrent, Hitler was on drugs Hitler was absolutist, he never drank or took anything narcotic. The strongest he took was mint-tea. He was also a vegetarian and believed in animal-rights Under Lenin they were testing Communism, their was no Dictatorship involved, when he made a decsion the people didn't agree with he changed it. I forgot what this law was but some of the population disagreed with it so they abolished it. There was a nation-wide, influence-free referendum? Link? Now lets see that happen in a democratic soceity? Why hasen't Bush apologized for the whole New Orleans thing (Ignoring him, the things his wife told them, etc) You can accuse him of incompetence and he'll be out of office anyway in two years. Can a leader be prosecuted/fired from his job in communistic society? Edit 2" Thats not my logic, thats REALITY rebellions make death <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wrong, rebellion != death. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
Dark Moth Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 (edited) Thats diffrent, Hitler was on drugs Soul seeker if things went the way Lenin wanted their would be no Stalinism, which means their probably woulden't be a dictatorship. But thats dealing with the "What ifs" Under Lenin they were testing Communism, their was no Dictatorship involved, when he made a decsion the people didn't agree with he changed it. I forgot what this law was but some of the population disagreed with it so they abolished it. Now lets see that happen in a democratic soceity? Why hasen't Bush apologized for the whole New Orleans thing (Ignoring him, the things his wife told them, etc) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "Hitler was on drugs" .... I guess I should give you some credit for making me laugh. But I'll tell you what, I'll bet he was sober when writing "Mein Kamph" Anyway, your trying to argue that Lenin and Mao were all noble souls becuase they tried to help their country. Hitler tried to help his country. The fact remains, these people may have had some genuine desire to help others (given their actions, it certainly wouldn't seem that way), but their methods used to obtain and keep power spurned just as many crimes as they sought to overthrow. They were no better or worse than those before them. As for your example about "democratic societies", I don't think I ever recall Mao ever apologizing for the 70 some million peope killed during China's Communist Revolution. In fact, last time I heard, a lot of people who opposed him ended up dead. Edited March 16, 2006 by Mothman
Pidesco Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Soul seeker if things went the way Lenin wanted their would be no Stalinism, which means their probably woulden't be a dictatorship. But thats dealing with the "What ifs" Under Lenin they were testing Communism, their was no Dictatorship involved, when he made a decsion the people didn't agree with he changed it. Lenin wasn't testing Communism he was, supposedly, making reforms to lead the USSR to Communism. At best, you could say that Lenin was a rosy idealist who didn't see the actual consequences of Marxism-Leninism, at worst he was a right bastard intent on reaching a position of power. Anyway, what Marxism-Leninism misses is that if you force Communism on people you're missing the point. Communism can only work when, and if, the masses are ready to accept it and that is why society's evolution is essentiall. "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist I am Dan Quayle of the Romans. I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands. Heja Sverige!! Everyone should cuffawkle more. The wrench is your friend.
metadigital Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Unfortunately, people cheat. And power corrupts, and ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Didn't Socrates say that 'only those who absolutely dread of having power should have it'? (Offtopic, I know. But the thread moves too fast for me since I am also eating my lunch at the moment.) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's about the size of it, in my experience. All those who become politicians are a bit of a problem: Arthur C Clarke explored the idea of a republic ruled by rota, every twelve months a new citizen was given highest executive power. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
LoneWolf16 Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Thats diffrent, Hitler was on drugs Hitler was absolutist, he never drank or took anything narcotic. The strongest he took was mint-tea. He was also a vegetarian and believed in animal-rights <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually...he was on drugs for a pretty long time. His primary doctor was giving him a special "brew" of narcotics for a few years there. Of course, Hitler didn't really know what was in it, he just trusted the man that much. I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast
julianw Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Actually...he was on drugs for a pretty long time. His primary doctor was giving him a special "brew" of narcotics for a few years there. Of course, Hitler didn't really know what was in it, he just trusted the man that much. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So that's how Hitler ended up with two genitals!
Meshugger Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Thats diffrent, Hitler was on drugs Hitler was absolutist, he never drank or took anything narcotic. The strongest he took was mint-tea. He was also a vegetarian and believed in animal-rights <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually...he was on drugs for a pretty long time. His primary doctor was giving him a special "brew" of narcotics for a few years there. Of course, Hitler didn't really know what was in it, he just trusted the man that much. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm pretty sure Elven6 wanted to point out that Hitler was fond of drugs and endorsed them, which wasn't the case. While the doctor gave him sedatives, it sure wasn't crackcocaine. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
LoneWolf16 Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 I'm pretty sure Elven6 wanted to point out that Hitler was fond of drugs and endorsed them, which wasn't the case. While the doctor gave him sedatives, it sure wasn't crackcocaine. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually... I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast
kirottu Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Doctor made him play WoW? It all makes sense now. This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Meshugger Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 I'm pretty sure Elven6 wanted to point out that Hitler was fond of drugs and endorsed them, which wasn't the case. While the doctor gave him sedatives, it sure wasn't crackcocaine. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Crackcocaine? "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
Pidesco Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Doctor made him play WoW? It all makes sense now. You mean Civ. "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist I am Dan Quayle of the Romans. I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands. Heja Sverige!! Everyone should cuffawkle more. The wrench is your friend.
Meshugger Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Doctor made him play WoW? It all makes sense now. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yup, that would be the deathblow "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
LoneWolf16 Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 (edited) I'm pretty sure Elven6 wanted to point out that Hitler was fond of drugs and endorsed them, which wasn't the case. While the doctor gave him sedatives, it sure wasn't crackcocaine. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Crackcocaine? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A form of cocaine...shared many of the same chemicals. More potent though. Keeping in mind that this is from the History Channel. Edited March 16, 2006 by LoneWolf16 I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast
Meshugger Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 I'm pretty sure Elven6 wanted to point out that Hitler was fond of drugs and endorsed them, which wasn't the case. While the doctor gave him sedatives, it sure wasn't crackcocaine. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Crackcocaine? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A form of cocaine...shared many of the same chemicals. More potent though. Keeping in mind that this is from the History Channel. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My source, the book "The raise and fall of the Third Reich", mentioned sedatives. But no matter, it doesn't make communism appliable in the real world "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
LoneWolf16 Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 My source, the book "The raise and fall of the Third Reich", mentioned sedatives. But no matter, it doesn't make communism appliable in the real world <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Evidently, the information, right down to the formula's exact contents was found in the guy's logs/journals. A pretty recent discovery, I guess. But yes, true communism isn't applicable in the real world. I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast
Plano Skywalker Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Communism is a wonderful idea, in lollipop land. Unfortunately, people cheat. And power corrupts, and ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY. So any practical implementation of communism will fail, because those in power will extort those not..... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> absolutely right. the reason why the "Russian mafia" appeared so suddenly after the collapse of the Soviet Union is because it was, for all practical purposes, already in place. people in power using their power to better themselves and using patronage, bribery, etc to accomplish it. the condition of man does not allow for such a system to exist in fact.
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