metadigital Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Once the caster's combined intelligence and wisdom scores have fallen below twenty-five then the penalty is taken from charisma, instead. Save versus illusion magic for half damage. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Raven Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I forsee the Enemy of Fun returning :ph34r: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thy name summoned and here I am. Seeing that Mr. Sawyer posted recently is the only reason why I will keep it open for now. Any more off topicness will get this locked down. Hades was the life of the party. RIP You'll be missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draikin Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 you know Volourn, those $14 millions aren't for Bioware. here's a study of the price of a game in France from 2003: PC: VAT: 16.4% Distribution: 19% Store: 32% Publisher: 12% Developer: 20.6% Console: VAT: 16.4% Distribution: 14% Store: 28.5% Royalties: 18.9% Publisher: 10% Developer: 12.2% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorian Drake Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Interesting chart. $14 mil made? For some reason I doubt it took $14 mil to make. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's because you don't know anything about game development. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Last time when we had this conversation someone found David Gaider quote where he said modern rpgs cost about $10-15 mil to make. In the quote he referred to games like Dragon Age(and some others which I can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 you know Volourn, those $14 millions aren't for Bioware. here's a study of the price of a game in France from 2003: PC: VAT: 16.4% Distribution: 19% Store: 32% Publisher: 12% Developer: 20.6% Console: VAT: 16.4% Distribution: 14% Store: 28.5% Royalties: 18.9% Publisher: 10% Developer: 12.2% <{POST_SNAPBACK}> At the console tab: Why is there a "royalty"-cost when JE was Bioware's own IP? "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draikin Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 it's the console manufacturer tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 At the console tab: Why is there a "royalty"-cost when JE was Bioware's own IP? M$ and Sony require money for every sold copy of the game. That is why they both allowed the PS2 and X-Box to sell below Production cost, since the game revenues (both from the own game creators, as from other game creators) would fill up this loss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I am still interested in how much a game like Jade Empire or KotOR 2 costed in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 it's the console manufacturer tax. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ah, no matter then. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I am still interested in how much a game like Jade Empire or KotOR 2 costed in production. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Most studies are reluctant to share how much a game cost to produce. Either that, or it's simply under NDA: "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E. Sawyer Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 So, just how much would a game like Jade Empire cost to make, Mr. Sawyer? To be realistic, you have to include the costs of marketing and distribution. Considering that Jade Empire had television advertising, I'd guess that the total was between $15M and $20M. Edmonton has a much lower cost of living compared to Southern California, which helps with the overall development price, but it's still probably pretty high. I'm basing these figures on what I've recently seen for other current-gen (now old gen, I guess) original IPs with 2+ year development cycles. Another single-platform game with about the same development time (slightly longer) and high profile ad campaign (slightly bigger) came in at $30M. That game needed to sell 2M units to start being profitable. Next gen games are going to make that look like chump change. But in any case, when you dump a hundred people on a project and run television commercials, the monthly burn rate is very high. twitter tyme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I surprised that games haven't increased in price then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) So, just how much would a game like Jade Empire cost to make, Mr. Sawyer? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> To be realistic, you have to include the costs of marketing and distribution. Considering that Jade Empire had television advertising, I'd guess that the total was between $15M and $20M. Edmonton has a much lower cost of living compared to Southern California, which helps with the overall development price, but it's still probably pretty high. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And if your estimates are true, Jade Empire was not financially successful as these costs are larger than the $14M in sales that Draikin posted recently. Edited February 11, 2006 by Lancer Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 If total production and marketing cost are indeed greater than or barely broke even then Jade Empire is a financial failure. If Jade Empire far exceeded production and marketing costs then it would be a financial success. That is the question here but it seems that we can't get a clear cut answer on production and marketing costs. I don't like estimates. Only way we can make an accurate assessment on this issue if we have exact values of how much the game costed and how much it made in revenue. Otherwise this is just useless conjecture and speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 PC:VAT: 16.4% Distribution: 19% Store: 32% Publisher: 12% Developer: 20.6% Console: VAT: 16.4% Distribution: 14% Store: 28.5% Royalties: 18.9% Publisher: 10% Developer: 12.2% You know, this makes me wonder why there aren't more devs/publishers vowing for PC-only releases. More cash (ALOT) for the devs. More cash for the publisher (small, but still) and more cash for the store (minor too)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) PC:VAT: 16.4% Distribution: 19% Store: 32% Publisher: 12% Developer: 20.6% Console: VAT: 16.4% Distribution: 14% Store: 28.5% Royalties: 18.9% Publisher: 10% Developer: 12.2% You know, this makes me wonder why there aren't more devs/publishers vowing for PC-only releases. More cash (ALOT) for the devs. More cash for the publisher (small, but still) and more cash for the store (minor too)... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not necessarily so. 12% of say $20M in returns is approximately $3M.. Which is more for the developer than say 20% of only $5M (only $1M) in returns. And console games tend to have a far larger market than PC games. Edited February 11, 2006 by Lancer Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Not necessarily. Certainly the percentages are larger for developer and publisher but that does not reflect the customer base, which the console market is larger than the PC market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E. Sawyer Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 By the way, the game I mentioned that had a total production cost of $30M -- it didn't sell 2M units. It didn't even come close. But that didn't stop the publisher from kicking off a sequel. Company reps have spoken very highly of the first game's critical acclaim and how happy they are with the attention it received. So who cares what BioWare and MicroSoft say about Jade Empire as a franchise? It doesn't necessarily have any correlation to how well the game sold or if it made/lost money. But I'm extremely doubtful that it did make money unless BioWare has x-treeeme mastery of underbidding and/or development cost control. twitter tyme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Not necessarily. Certainly the percentages are larger for developer and publisher but that does not reflect the customer base, which the console market is larger than the PC market. Indeed... but why is that, because alot more games come out for the consoles... I wasn't talking about dev X, but just more all dev/prod. in general. And if more games come for PC, more gamers will go to the PC, giving both the % bonus with the same amount of costumers then... But since the market goes towards consoles these days that is just fiction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Not necessarily. Certainly the percentages are larger for developer and publisher but that does not reflect the customer base, which the console market is larger than the PC market. Indeed... but why is that, because alot more games come out for the consoles... I wasn't talking about dev X, but just more all dev/prod. in general. And if more games come for PC, more gamers will go to the PC, giving both the % bonus with the same amount of costumers then... But since the market goes towards consoles these days that is just fiction <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It could also be that so much more money is made on consoles that the percentages for developers and publishers could afford to be lower. Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 It could also be that so much more money is made on consoles that the percentages for developers and publishers could afford to be lower. Yes. But if a larger part of the market goes toward PC that will attract people to go there and then you have the same "more money" without the greedy MS/Sony taking a grab of your cash... But as I said, not going to happen, needs too many producers at once to go to the PC and I don't expect them to go plan together such a plan for a better profit in the future if it gives then a small decrease in sales/profit at the moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) It could also be that so much more money is made on consoles that the percentages for developers and publishers could afford to be lower. Yes. But if a larger part of the market goes toward PC that will attract people to go there and then you have the same "more money" without the greedy MS/Sony taking a grab of your cash... But as I said, not going to happen, needs too many producers at once to go to the PC and I don't expect them to go plan together such a plan for a better profit in the future if it gives then a small decrease in sales/profit at the moment... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This actually ties in well with my growing speculation that the PC RPG genre is slowly dying.. But that is equally as difficult to predict since there are so many variables to consider.. Not to mention that talking about that would stir up some hotheads here. Edited February 11, 2006 by Lancer Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Mr. Sawyer, that just doesn't make any sort of sense to me. Why make a sequel to a game that is considered a financial failure? It just doesn't make good business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Mr. Sawyer, that just doesn't make any sort of sense to me. Why make a sequel to a game that is considered a financial failure? It just doesn't make good business. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was wondering that myself Lancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Whoever said publishers possess intelligence? ..I would beliege theyre making a sequel because they believe that the first game established a "brand" that will make sales of the sequel easier. They completely forget that people wont buy the sequel if the first game was bad DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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