alanschu Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 You're too stuck on rules, and it hinders your ability to enjoy games. I feel sorry for you actually. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, but I am stuck on a balance between rules mechanics and story design. Both need to compliment each other in a balance in order to make a great CRPG. Saying damn the rules, you have an action game and not a CRPG. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Where does it state how long character progression should take in the rules? I'm pretty sure that NWN2 will still be rolling D20s, adjusting for ability scores, and all that other fun stuff that is actually stated in the core rules. I'm surprised you aren't pissed because they reduced the experience you get from killing a monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I wouldn't like the game if I hit level 3 in 30 minutes. Obviously you and I are not going to be in an agreement on this so there is just no point in talking to any of you on this matter. Go and play your uber munchkin characters kiddies. Go on and be a god if that is how you get your kicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Says the one who is currently enjoying playing a VAMPIRE.... DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Where does it state how long character progression should take in the rules? Actually it is one of WotC's guidelines that a character should level on average every 14 encounters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haitoku Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I wouldn't like the game if I hit level 3 in 30 minutes. Obviously you and I are not going to be in an agreement on this so there is just no point in talking to any of you on this matter. Go and play your uber munchkin characters kiddies. Go on and be a god if that is how you get your kicks. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What does it matter how powerful your character is as long as the game is still difficult? So your at God status and your fighting enemies that are on God status +1? Who cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Where does it state how long character progression should take in the rules? Actually it is one of WotC's guidelines that a character should level on average every 14 encounters. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sounds like we level up much too slowly in most D&D CRPG games then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) And, you can often reach about that in less than 2 hours in a CRPG... Espicially if you happen to be in a dungeon... It's a good thing I ignore the rule. Edited January 12, 2006 by Volourn DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 And, you can often reach about that in less than 2 hours in a CRPG... Espicially if you happen to be in a dungeon... It's a good thing I ignore the rule. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 People bought KOTOR because of D20 and not because of SW. And, of course, making a system specifically for PC/console instead of an awkward implementation of a tabletop system was counterintuitive. Fortunately, the end result is that KOTOR ended up with the best combat system ever. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkreku Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 By the way.. I've been invited to a press showing of Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach next tuesday. Just thought I'd throw that in here for no reason whatsoever ) Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 By the way.. I've been invited to a press showing of Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach next tuesday. Just thought I'd throw that in here for no reason whatsoever ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I could play the beta if I wanted :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roshan Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 Yes but the amount of graphics needed will not increase in a linear fashion. Lets say an area needs 15 different barrels to make it look good. When they create a new area, they can use 5 of the old barrels and add in another 5 new ones and make something that looks different enough, they dont need to create 15 whole new barrels. Not sure what that has to do with what I said. I was talking about specifically increasing the length of the game by 15 hours merely by adding "RP" content...which you still haven't defined. You are also ignoring many things. The trees are randomly generated using technology from outside, the toolset used to make new areas is already created, the engine is already programmed, the multiplayer already worked out. Thus designing new areas will not increase all these costs so the costs will not increase linearly. All they need is more designers and some more artists. I'm not ignoring anything...you're just misreading what you said. I know that all they need is more designer hours. You make it sound like hiring designers and artists is a cheap thing to do though. More content isnt being created because it costs more, content isnt being created because it simply isnt a priority. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> All in all, I find your entire post spoken from an understandably naive perspective. Content, in all of its forms, costs money. The cost of creating content today, in all of it's forms, has been increasing (with the cost of an individual sale being relatively static). I was never talking about creating new graphics and whatnot. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> First of all, the definition of roleplaying content is rather obvious and does not need to be defined. If you do not have at least a basic idea of this term means then there is no point in discussing things further. You did bring up cost per hour of gameplay. All I am saying is that the cost per hour of gameplay will not increase in a linear fashion and thus the increase in cost will not be significant. To create the first 15 hours of gameplay, you need to license technology, buy the settings license, program the engine and toolset etc. To create an additional 15 hours, you do not need to pay for those things anymore. All you need are the designers and to a lesser extent artists. Thus the benefit to the games length justifies the increase in costs. So why arent resources being allocated to this? The reason is simple, its not a priority because the market being catered to is not interested in longer games with more roleplaying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) Sounds like we level up much too slowly in most D&D CRPG games then. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Depends on your definition of an encounter. I usually hit that level in my PnP group. As for dungeonneering I treat a single dungeon level as one enocunter. Edited January 12, 2006 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 First of all, the definition of roleplaying content is rather obvious and does not need to be defined. If you do not have at least a basic idea of this term means then there is no point in discussing things further. In other words, you can't define yet? The reason why I asked, is because it's different for every person. Your answer is just a cop out, since being vague prevents annoying things like "reality" interrupting your trirade. If I assume your definition was to in some way entail a ton of dialogue options depending on your character (I find RP distinctions are most easily demonstrated here), and other ways, then you are still grossly underestimating the time required to add 15 hours...unless you want it shallow, simple, and untested. You did bring up cost per hour of gameplay. All I am saying is that the cost per hour of gameplay will not increase in a linear fashion and thus the increase in cost will not be significant. To create the first 15 hours of gameplay, you need to license technology, buy the settings license, program the engine and toolset etc. To create an additional 15 hours, you do not need to pay for those things anymore. All you need are the designers and to a lesser extent artists. Fair enough. But the cost per hour of gameplay will still far exceed any of the long games you have before. In fact, I bet that the cost per gameplay of an additional 15 hours in a game like NWN2 will in fact exceed the cost per gameplay of the first few hours of Baldur's Gate. Having said that, my "cost" wasn't including things such as licences or anything...just development time. It's also "easy" to say that the increase in cost is not significant. All you have to do is hire more designers, and perhaps artists. This overlooks that minute detail that labour is the largest cost....so I can't see how it's insignificant. Thus the benefit to the games length justifies the increase in costs. So why arent resources being allocated to this? The reason is simple, its not a priority because the market being catered to is not interested in longer games with more roleplaying. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No.....it's cost. I guarantee you that if Obsidian could afford to spend more money on RP options, they would. Developers ALWAYS want to add more stuff into their games....always (yes, I mean that in the absolute, 100% of the time, not in any way an exaggeration). The cost reflection also comes in with respect to revenue. Sure there's a diminishing cost per hour since those "cheap" designers and artists can do the work. But there's also diminishing returns on the sales as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Sounds like we level up much too slowly in most D&D CRPG games then. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Depends on your definition of an encounter. I usually hit that level in my PnP group. As for dungeonneering I treat a single dungeon level as one enocunter. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What's your definition of an encounter? Or perhaps more importantly, what's WotC's definition of an encounter, since we're going by their definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) Doesn't matter what their definition is I guess. They approved of the game so they got their money. I wouldn't worry about what I think anyway. More than likely you will have your level 1 to lvel 20 god in a nice 30 hour game anyway. Its not like the devs or the publishers give a crap about making something good instead of making something that is popular. Bottomline is I don't want a godlike character after only playing a single game for 30 hours. I just don't want it because it is simply no fun for me whatsoever. If I wanted to play a god I would load up the old Populos or some other "Be Godlike" games. Edited January 12, 2006 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyan Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that if a character levels too fast, you don't feel like you've earnt it. - Or words to that effect. I don't mind how often my character levels so long as I feel he/she/it deserves it. Provided I've done something suitably worth undertaking and have been rewarded for it, I'm happy. I feel sold short if I don't level properly or been given a "reward"/whatever after running around for hours performing some stupid/plot based task. Likewise, when I get given five levels for taking a coin from house a to house b in the same city, I feel frustrated because clearly, its making a mockery of the rules/character. HK47: Commentary: It is not possible to destroy the master. It is suggested that you run while my blasters warm, meatbags. Bastila to Revan: You are easily the vainest, most arrogant man I have ever met! Canderous to Bastila: Insults? Maybe if your master had trained your lightsaber to be as quick as your tongue you could have escaped those Vulkars, you spoiled little Jedi princess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkan Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 You folks are totally focusing on the wrong portion of the quote.we're shooting for 30 to 40 hours of dungeon-romping, plot-twisting and monster-slaying fun. In none of those thirty hours does it include role playing? Boo urns Obsidian. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Arkan, roleplaying takes TIME. Youve got to think, roleplay and make decisions. I dont see how you can have much meaningful roleplaying in a short game. A short game is an easy graphics packed dungeon romp, not an intricate roleplaying experience. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Uh, yeah. I'd rather have 30-40 hours of roleplaying than the other 3 mentioned. I'm sorry but I thought we were talking roleplaying games here. "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) Each and every single character level has to be and feel likeit was earned through sweat and blood of the character. None of the free level crap that has been in the NWN 1 and expansions along with kotOR 1 and KotOR 2. When I played through KotOR 2 I felt like I didn't earn a single level. I felt it was just given to me as a freebie. I guess I am in the minority on that. FREE LEVELS FOR EVERYONE! Edited January 12, 2006 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyan Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Each and every single character level has to be and feel likeit was earned through sweat and blood of the character. None of the free level crap that has been in the NWN 1 and expansions along with kotOR 1 and KotOR 2. When I played through KotOR 2 I felt like I didn't earn a single level. I felt it was just given to me as a freebie. I guess I am in the minority on that. FREE LEVELS FOR EVERYONE! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> HK47: Commentary: It is not possible to destroy the master. It is suggested that you run while my blasters warm, meatbags. Bastila to Revan: You are easily the vainest, most arrogant man I have ever met! Canderous to Bastila: Insults? Maybe if your master had trained your lightsaber to be as quick as your tongue you could have escaped those Vulkars, you spoiled little Jedi princess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Okay, power gamers how does thisa sound. Lets start the PC at 20th level. That way you don't have to worry about taking the time to level while playing and make every critter that fights you an uber weak dragon with loads and loads of PHAT LEWT! Make it into a single dungeon that every door is unlocked and un trapped where the dragon and its huge ass hoarde lies behind it. OH YEAH! Be an uber godling with the power to smite down dragons with one hit! ROLEPLAYING AT ITS BEST! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Wait. I want to play that game. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 OF course you do! Everyone wants to play a god that can smack down a dragon and get phat loot. That is what role playing is all about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 ... then why are you complaining? (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Um... I was being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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