C.S. Lewis quote

[Blank]

"When we merely say that we are bad, the wrath of God seems a barbarous doctrine; as soon as we perceive our bad-ness, it appears inevitable, a mere corallary from God's goodness..." -C.S. Lewis

 

I bring up this quote because some of the guys i've talked to here usually say that for God to punish sin is "barbarous", but i saw Lewis' quote and it reminded me of some principles:

 

1. God is all-good, and no evil can be with Him (psalm 5:4), He sees all evil as the same, i.e. any evil is utterly evil. James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

 

2. Therefore, if He is to punish one evil (for example, we say a murderer or a rapist should be punished), then He must punish all evil (again, each sin, no matter what it is, separates you from Him) and this would include any lie or idol we have made.

 

3. It's God's judgement, not our own. We can't tell God, "i only lied once, but look at all the good things i did." If you went to court for grand theft auto and told the judge, "i only stole one car, but look at all the community service i did. that exempts me right?" no, it doesn't. neither does it exempt you with God.

 

4. When presented with this case, we are obviously guilty. and we will be punished by God accordingly (romans 6:23, the punishment for sin is death, i.e. eternal death/separation from God/in hell. read Revelation 20:11-15)

 

5. However, God loves us and recognizes our weakness in upholding His law, so He sacrificed His Son as an atonement for our lawbreaking. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the father except through me."

Edited January 1, 2006 by Blank

[Dark Moth]

First of all, one problem is that some people, not just our fellow posters, hate to be told how to live their lives and what is right/wrong. They view it as a violation of their own free will as human beings, and they refuse to accept it, even if it is from a deity that was here even before humanity. While I think it's rather arrogant to assume a human would know better than a deity, many people here don't share my views on what a deity is. Hence, I believe my God is just, omnipotent, and omniscient. Others however don't view God as any of those, and some view God as little more than another human. Therefore, to think of some being punishing them for their actions seem outrageous and unfair to them.

 

Also, this has to do with a post-modern perspective of looking at the world in shades of gray. Me, I tend to view things more in black and white with some gray mixed in. I believe not everything is black and white, but to disregard it entirely is wrong. With this in mind, some believe there's no real right and wrong, and therefore anything they do could be percieved as good or evil, and therefore no one, not even God, has a right to judge them. I've always believed that to say there is no right and wrong is a lie. Even if you look at the world as a whole, there seem to be universal concepts of right and wrong that reach out beyond one particular culture or religion and influence the entire world. This is a something I believe is discussed in another book by C.S. Lewis, maybe called The Abolition of Man?

[Blank]

... I believe my God is just, omnipotent, and omniscient.  Others however don't view God as any of those, and some view God as little more than another human.  Therefore, to think of some being punishing them for their actions seem outrageous and unfair to them. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, but if they consider what i say to be true, then they will realise that what they think doesn't matter when they come before God to be judged. however, nobody ever likes to consider another belief as being true, and so they don't think of the eternal consequences.

 

another thought, telling people not to sin sounds retarded to them, since they have a wordly perspective. for example, being kind to others sometimes puts one's own wealth at risk, and that is just not acceptable to some people. however, if you believe in God you'd see that wordly wealth won't matter when being judged by Him, only the things you have done with your money. So for Christians to try and put restrictions on other people who are still living in sin doesn't make sense.

[Judge Hades]

1. Sorry, I can never see God as an all good diety. If he was all good he wouldn't have made three religions that kill each other in his name.

 

2. Another reason why I don't see god as all good is the fact that if you are against him you will be tortured for all eternity. No matter the crime there is no justification for eternal torture. No justification at all. Not even genocide. Sure it might be worth a 1000 or more years, but eternity is a long freaking time. Talk about holding a grudge.

 

3. Yeah, yeah, God is all freaking powerful. Listen, Kid, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Doesn't matter if you are god or a postal worker.

 

4. If god punishes someone forever then he is being a petty tyrant. Simple as that. Like I said above there is no crime, anywhere, that deserves eternal punishment. If god is going to be petty then I will gladly give him the finger and tell him to sit and spin.

 

5. Jesus is nothing more than a Paul Bunyan tale, stolen from the greeks to replace Hercules or some other divine borned gid. The stories of Jesus is more myth than fact.

[Diamond]

Is there any reason not to hate weekly religion debate threads?

[Dark Moth]

1.  Sorry, I can never see God as an all good diety.  If he was all good he wouldn't have made three religions that kill each other in his name.

 

2.  Another reason why I don't see god as all good is the fact that if you are against him you will be tortured for all eternity.  No matter the crime there is no justification for eternal torture.  No justification at all.  Not even genocide.  Sure it might be worth a 1000 or more years, but eternity is a long freaking time.  Talk about holding a grudge.

 

3.  Yeah, yeah, God is all freaking powerful.  Listen, Kid, absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Doesn't matter if you are god or a postal worker.

 

4.  If god punishes someone forever then he is being a petty tyrant.  Simple as that.  Like I said above there is no crime, anywhere, that deserves eternal punishment.  If god is going to be petty then I will gladly give him the finger and tell him to sit and spin.

 

5.  Jesus is nothing more than a Paul Bunyan tale, stolen from the greeks to replace Hercules or some other divine borned gid.  The stories of Jesus is more myth than fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. More like 2. Christianity was spawned from Judaism. Islam is really a new religion that stole bits and pieces from the previous two. Also, since neither religion really justifies the killing, then it'd be humanity's fault, wouldn't it?

 

2. Well, using your "all gray" philosphy, it should be okay since there is no right and wrong. Right?

 

3. It may corrupt humans. We are human, after all. A deity is supposed to be something better than human, so no.

 

4. Same as post 2.

 

5. How do you know that? And why would you believe in God then if you can't believe in Jesus's tale?

 

Is there any reason not to hate weekly religion debate threads?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good question.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Mothman

[Judge Hades]

We were made in god's image, and if we can be corrupted by power then so can he. As for Jesus, for every myth there is a kernal of truth. I do believe that there was a Jesus and taught a great many things and had a great following, then betrayed and crucified. I do not beleive that he was the Son of God or his divine birth, or his ressurection.

[Shadowstrider]

1.  More like 2.  Christianity was spawned from Judaism.  Islam is really a new religion that stole bits and pieces from the previous two.  Also, since neither religion really justifies the killing, then it'd be humanity's fault, wouldn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your lack of knowledge on this subject, combined with your assertions absolutely astound me.

 

You really, really, really need to do some research. I know you're going to proclaim your knowledge and harp on what you've read, etc... Read it again. Read it all again. Until you get it right.

[Dark Moth]

1.  More like 2.  Christianity was spawned from Judaism.  Islam is really a new religion that stole bits and pieces from the previous two.  Also, since neither religion really justifies the killing, then it'd be humanity's fault, wouldn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your lack of knowledge on this subject, combined with your assertions absolutely astound me.

 

You really, really, really need to do some research. I know you're going to proclaim your knowledge and harp on what you've read, etc... Read it again. Read it all again. Until you get it right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Alright, then, Shadowstrider. Prove me wrong. Judging from your posts in the past, you don't seem to have high knowledge of the subject, either. Or maybe you weren't here when I listed a whole bunch of Quran verses which contradict the Bible, including reasons why Allah and the God of Judaism/Christianity weren't the same? Or also maybe you're not aware of how Islam teaches that Christianity and Judaism are corrupt faiths? And if you can't back up your statements, then don't post at all, otherwise you'll only make yourself look foolish. And I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again: I form my opinions based on what I've read, which includes theological and secular sources. Not only have I read the Quran and the Hadith, but numerous books and articles on it. If you think I'm wrong, then back it up.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Mothman

[thepixiesrock]

The problem with these threads, are that everyone runs around assuming they are right. Relegion is a touchy subject, because for some people, it is more than a belief, it is the truth that they believe. they are right and you are wrong. How can you debate with people like that?

[Shadowstrider]

Alright, then, Shadowstrider.  Prove me wrong.  Judging from your posts in the past, you don't seem to have high knowledge of the subject, either.  Or maybe you weren't here when I listed a whole bunch of Quran verses which contradict the Bible, including reasons why Allah and the God of Judaism weren't the same?  Or also maybe you're not aware of how Islam teaches that Christianity and Judaism are corrupt faiths?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe I should pull out the dozens of quotes where the Bible contradicts the Bible? Or where the Bible states that Jews aren't saved?

 

Your statements proves nothing, other than your completely absurd idealic view of the Bible. The only reason it seems I don't have knowledge is you haven't done your research properly. Ofcourse Islam teaches Christianity and Judaism is corrupt, but that doesn't mean it is any less spawned by the religion of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

Honestly, you need to do some research.

[Dark Moth]

Maybe I should pull out the dozens of quotes where the Bible contradicts the Bible?  Or where the Bible states that Jews aren't saved?

 

Your statements proves nothing, other than your completely absurd idealic view of the Bible.  The only reason it seems I don't have knowledge is you haven't done your research properly.  Ofcourse Islam teaches Christianity and Judaism is corrupt, but that doesn't mean it is any less spawned by the religion of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

Honestly, you need to do some research.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Go ahead. But you still aren't backing up your statements, as I thought. Islam was in a way spawned from Christianity, but the God it teaches is very different, teaches radically different doctrines, and also as I said contradicts the Bible. And unlike Christianity, which was more of a continuation/reformation of Judaism, Islam is a faith which took bits of both religions and added new elements to make itself. And unlike the Bible, which contains both the Old and New Testaments, the Quran contains neither, and is an entirely new book. I'll say it again: the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity or Judaism.

 

Here are some examples why:

 

1. God is knowable according to the Bible, but according to Islam Allah is unknoweable.

 

2. God is more of a personal being as taught by the Bible, Allah is impersonal.

 

3. God of Christianity manifests in three forms (the trinity), Allah is one being. The Quran also denies the trilogy as blasphemy.

 

4. God is limited by his nature, meaning he cannot lie, cannot break covenants, cannot do evil, etc. Allah has no nature to limit himself to. Allah also is capricious, meaning he could easily say one thing and do another.

 

5. God is loving. The Quran states many adjectives of Allah, but not loving. This would lower him in a way. The closest thing it describes him as is compassionate, but that is not the same thing as loving.

 

6. Allah is passive in history. He never intervenes except by angels or prophets. God himself does intervene, including when he came to earth as Jesus.

 

7. Christianity has a saving intercessor (Jesus), Islam does not.

 

Also combine that with the fact that they teach radically different doctrines as well. BTW, historical evidence indicates that Allah actually came from an older Arabic moon god of the same name. Ever wonder why Islam has a crescent as its symbol?

 

So no, not the same god. If you'd like more, I shall post them.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Mothman

[Shadowstrider]

*Boggles*

 

Blind Men and the Elephant

 

There is no use trying to show a blind man. I can only hope you find the Elephant.

[Dark Moth]

^^^ see edited post above

 

And as I figured, you still can't seem to back up your statements. So far you've only made statements.

[thepixiesrock]

Maybe I should pull out the dozens of quotes where the Bible contradicts the Bible?  Or where the Bible states that Jews aren't saved?

 

Your statements proves nothing, other than your completely absurd idealic view of the Bible.  The only reason it seems I don't have knowledge is you haven't done your research properly.  Ofcourse Islam teaches Christianity and Judaism is corrupt, but that doesn't mean it is any less spawned by the religion of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

Honestly, you need to do some research.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Go ahead. But you still aren't backing up your statements, as I thought. Islam was in a way spawned from Christianity, but the God it teaches is very different, teaches radically different doctrines, and also as I said contradicts the Bible. And unlike Christianity, which was more of a continuation/reformation of Judaism, Islam is a faith which took bits of both religions and added new elements to make itself. And unlike the Bible, which contains both the Old and New Testaments, the Quran contains neither, and is an entirely new book. I'll say it again: the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity or Judaism.

 

Here are some examples why:

 

1. God is knowable according to the Bible, but according to Islam Allah is unknoweable.

 

2. God is more of a personal being as taught by the Bible, Allah is impersonal.

 

3. God of Christianity manifests in three forms (the trinity), Allah is one being. The Quran also denies the trilogy as blasphemy.

 

4. God is limited by his nature, meaning he cannot lie, cannot break covenants, cannot do evil, etc. Allah has no nature to limit himself to. Allah also is capricious, meaning he could easily say one thing and do another.

 

5. God is loving. The Quran states many adjectives of Allah, but not loving. This would lower him in a way. The closest thing it describes him as is compassionate, but that is not the same thing as loving.

 

6. Allah is passive in history. He never intervenes except by angels or prophets. God himself does intervene, including when he came to earth as Jesus.

 

7. Christianity has a saving intercessor (Jesus), Islam does not.

 

Also combine that with the fact that they teach radically different doctrines as well. So no, not the same god. If you'd like more, I shall post them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

So far you've only made statements.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The irony is gleaming.

[Dark Moth]

I'm trying to back up my reasons for stating that the Gods of Islam and Judaism/Christianity are different. It'd be hypocritical of me not to back it up. Edited January 2, 2006 by Mothman

[thepixiesrock]

  I'm trying to back up my reasons for stating that the Gods of Islam and Judaism/Christianity are different.  It'd be hypocritical of me not to back it up.  Otherwise, please cut the sarcasm.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You didn't back it up, you just made statements. You don't actually quote anything or anyone. You are showing us no source of the information.

[Dark Moth]

First of all, I was stating my reasons. Shadowstrider gave no reasons for his viewpoints. I wasn't really looking for a source. As for my statements, I can't quote them exactly (as they aren't net sources), but they come from The Quran, the Hadith, and The Islamic Invasion (very good book). Since you'll obviously want verses, I'll need a minute though to find them.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Mothman

[thepixiesrock]

First of all, I was stating my reasons.  Shadowstrider gave no reasons for his viewpoints.  I wasn't really looking for a source.  As for my statements, I can't quote them exactly (as they aren't net sources), but they come from The Quran, the Hadith, The Islamic Invasion (very good book).  I'll need a minute though to find the verses I'm looking for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thats all I want, I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that you should actually quote what it is you are using as you information, that way, everyone can see it.

[thepixiesrock]

^^^  see edited post above 

 

And as I figured, you still can't seem to back up your statements.    So far you've only made statements.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

First of all, I was stating my reasons.  Shadowstrider gave no reasons for his viewpoints.  I wasn't really looking for a source.  As for my statements, I can't quote them exactly (as they aren't net sources), but they come from The Quran, the Hadith, and The Islamic Invasion (very good book).  Since you'll obviously want verses, I'll need a minute though to find them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

...

[Dark Moth]

Well, I thought you'd want me to quote passages exactly, so I edited the post. And as I said, they aren't net sources, so I'd have to dig them out first. I just thought I'd list the sources first.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Mothman

[thepixiesrock]

You can't pull the wool over ol' Lou Gutman's eyes!

[Surreptishus]

Would you understand if somebody pointed out that criticising a religion from the perspective of another (somewhat rival) religion is, for lack of a better word, stupid?

Edited January 2, 2006 by Surreptishus

[thepixiesrock]

Hey Mothman, criticising a religion from the perspective of another (somewhat rival) religion is stupid.

[LoneWolf16]

I hate you, Blank. Why...why did you do this, man? Why?

 

The Islamic faith apparently took bits and pieces from Judaism and Christianity. So what? Those two religions did the same damned thing with their predecessors.