How old is "True Sith" plot?

[Xard]

I have believed that True sith/Mandalorian wars plot was made during k2, but then I started to think what canderous said in k1. It was something like this:"Sith came to us with offer. To fight war like never before."

 

That of course mean Sith from Unknown Regions. After k2 that is obvious. But in k1, there were no mention about Sith Empire in Unknown Regions. And there were no sith lord (except TS in UR ) between Exar Kun and Revan.

 

So, i'm asking: Did Bioware create True Sith when they developed k1? And they told about this plot to Obsidian when they started k2 development?

 

Sry if that ^ is bad english.

[dufflover]

Welcome to the forums...wanna play Pazaak?

 

Canderous: "Sith came to us with offer. To fight war like never before."

Don't remember hearing this line but I haven't played K1 in ages.

It also doesn't have to be the True Sith either - I mean look how Palpatine/Sidious started the whole Trade Federation war in the Star Wars Prequels. In that sense, you could say that the war was an excuse for Revan and Malak to go look for the Star Forge; the two possiblities were that Revan/Malak found the Star Forge during/after the war, while the other as inferred to the Dantooine Star Map movie is that they already knew of it, or at least were DS before the war.

This just adds weight to it being the 2nd one.

 

Also don't forget the K1 loading screen saying the True Sith are long gone. (as discussed in older threads).

 

Still, does make me think because I was pretty disappointed with how K2 really screwed up the KotOR universe.

[Sikon]

I suppose we'll never know. I presume Obsidian delved into BioWare's text and built the story upon the references that were in K1, but usually went unnoticed. It's similar to retconning, although retcons are usually introduced in response to continuity contradictions. In this case, Obsidian turned Malachor V - the place of the last battle in the Mandalorian Wars, insignificant by itself - into a remnant of the ancient Sith, filled with the dark side. Similarly, they took that reference about the Sith and turned it into a reference to the Sith Empire in the Unknown Regions. Similarly, the introduction of Sauron and the One Ring into the world of The Hobbit (itself retconned to be Middle-earth from The Silmarillion) was based upon existing obscure references.

Yes, and K2 didn't screw up the KOTOR universe. Like one droid said, "A common misconception, not supported by facts."

Edited December 25, 2005 by Sikon

[Judge Hades]

Canderous did say that line and according to the time line the Sith Empire is still around, but past its golden age. Read the Darkside Handbook for the Star Wars RPG sometime. It gives a good time line of events.

[Xard]

Ok, thanks everyone.

 

In that sense, you could say that the war was an excuse for Revan and Malak to go look for the Star Forge; the two possiblities were that Revan/Malak found the Star Forge during/after the war, while the other as inferred to the Dantooine Star Map movie is that they already knew of it, or at least were DS before the war.

 

Hmm... But didn't Revan find out information about Star Forge from Malachor? Well, not sure. And if that is case, why wouldn't TS use Forge. Illogical, so you maybe right.

 

*sigh* We just have to wait prequel-madness (And NWN 2!) pass so LA will finally let and Obsidian can start making k3. They will do it, right? Right? :ph34r: (they are in sh*t if they wont)

[Plano Skywalker]

if you think of the True Sith as the decendants of the followers of Ludo Kresh, then it works just fine. The ultimate fate of his followers has never been defined.

[Judge Hades]

The True Sth was a race called Sith.

[Xard]

if you think of the True Sith as the decendants of the followers of Ludo Kresh, then it works just fine.  The ultimate fate of his followers has never been defined.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe so. It makes sense.

 

However, some of Kressh's forces survived, unknown to the Republic.

 

For over a millennium the Republic believed that the Old Sith Empire had been destroyed shortly afterward, but during the Mandalorian Wars it was rediscovered by the fallen Jedi Revan and Malak in the Unknown Regions, patiently waiting for its chance to return to power.

 

That is from wiki. I believe that there are still some sith half-breed, like Marka Ragnos. Perhaps next archvillain (not sure how it is typed ) is one of those. It would be cool if him/her or his apprentice use sith sword rather than lightsaber.

[dufflover]

It would be cool if him/her or his apprentice use sith sword rather than lightsaber.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tavion in Jedi Academy right...?

[Xard]

Yeah, like Tavion. He got sword from specter. Academy has worstet plot ever, in any case. And i didn't like those red lightings around the sword either. Just simple, black vibrosword look or something like that.

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

Regardless about the rumors, there is no such thing as a 'TRUE SITH'... I think this is a massive rumor, which holds no weight at all. I tried searching the database at StarWars.com, EU Database, and I found no indication of a 'True Sith'... Vader, Emporer, and Maul were all Sith. Sith are fallen Jedi... Period... What I got from playing KotOR II was that before the second Sith Empire, there was an 'Original' Sith Empire. Otherwords, the very begining of the Sith Empire. There is no mention about a 'True Sith'... If I missed it somewhere, that would be the largest full of garbage I have ever heard. The Sith ar Fallen Jedi... Nothing more and nothing Less...

 

 

Therefore, they are talking about the 'Original' Sith, which would be the first generation of Sith. They too are fallen Jedi...PERIOD!!!!

[Wild Storm]

What about Naga Sadow? Marka Ragnos?

[dufflover]

I don't mind "True Sith" ever existing...just not existing now and screwing things

 

Regardless about the rumors, there is no such thing as a 'TRUE SITH'... I think this is a massive rumor, which holds no weight at all.

This is something that I've tried to outline before with say the Wound in the Force (or Force Bonds); I certainly don't want the True Sith to be real (in current KotOR time anyway) but Obsidian have revolved the game/Revan on it, and just like the wound in force, Obsidian have seemingly made a real push that it's real.

Another way to put it is that although they haven't fully shown it is real, they have not put in any evidence or shown any intent to say otherwise.

Edited December 27, 2005 by dufflover

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

I am trying to think how I want to answer this question. I know I want to use a few words, but I will have to explain them. Here goes...

 

Any Sith Empire or Jedi Council that comes before 'KotOR I', I consider to be the 'Original Jedi Council' or 'Original Sith Empire'. Other words, they are exactly the same as the current Sith and Jedi, except they existed when the Empire and Council were first being established. Therefore, the 'Original Sith', which gave birth to the first 'Sith Empite' were fallen or potential Jedi. What makes them special is that they are founders. Nothing more...

 

Obsidian Entertainment is only trying to make their mark on the Star Wars Universe. Tim Zhan made his mark, and now Obsidian thinks they could make theirs. Too bad! Lucas has allready established what a 'Sith' and a 'Jedi' is.... Anything else is just ameturistic.

 

If a 'True Sith' was explained at the beginning, or in the movies, then I would have no problem with this concept. However, I have been watching "Star Wars' for twenty years, and I allready have a lexicon about 'What a Sith and Jedi is!"

 

There are just somethings that should not be touched....

 

To be honest, I can understand if this is why Lucas is hesitant in creating another KotOR.. Because people keep rewriting his stories....

Edited December 27, 2005 by MacLeodCorp

[Krookie]

Therefore, the 'Original Sith', which gave birth to the first 'Sith Empite' were fallen or potential Jedi. What makes them special is that they are founders. Nothing more...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If I read that right, you're wrong. The Sith were a race, that has been gone for ages. The first Sith Empire was not made up of fallen or potential Jedi, it was made up by the Sith species.

[213374U]

Any Sith Empire or Jedi Council that comes before 'KotOR I', I consider to be the 'Original Jedi Council' or 'Original Sith Empire'. Other words, they are exactly the same as the current Sith and Jedi, except they existed when the Empire and Council were first being established. Therefore, the 'Original Sith', which gave birth to the first 'Sith Empite' were fallen or potential Jedi. What makes them special is that they are founders. Nothing more...

Yes, and no.

 

The Sith were a race, a rather primitive one at that. Then there was this group of maverick Jedi that had been cast out from the order because of their crazy ass dark side beliefs. They fled to the outer rim, where they encountered and conquered the Sith, and appointed themselves as rulers of this race. Thus, you have some half-breeds, such as Marka Ragnos, that were part pure blood Sith, and part something else. That is the "true" Sith empire.

 

What I don't like about this is the naming. I mean, if those guys are the "true" Sith, that would make Revan, Malak, Palps, and the rest of the gang "fake" Sith. That's just lame. "Old" Sith empire would fit much better, without implying that the Sith we know and love are just wannabes.

 

 

To be honest, I can understand if this is why Lucas is hesitant in creating another KotOR.. Because people keep rewriting his stories....

That's garbage. Anyone licensed by LFL to write a story in the SW universe must first present any ideas to their "canon committee", or whatever, and must count with their total approval at the time of release. If the committee doesn't like something, then that has to go. So, GL isn't really that concerned about continuity issues as you might want to imply.

[moreKOTORplz]

if they are true sith then they are not force users like palp and Exar so that would be pretty weak. it could be the vong, obsidian can bring them into the fold. i know like you said that the maverick jedi were the ones who, along with the interbreeding of the sith, created the "sith lords" like ragnos but an explaination of the vong could be interesting. the vong are from the unknown regions and canderious was talking about them in K1 (random convo?), so it could fit with KOTOR. plus they were once force users then they cast themselves from the force. its all fresh to SW and it would fit nicely in the canon that has become SW EU.

[213374U]

No. No more munchkin lameass races, thank-you-very-much.

[Sikon]

No. No more munchkin lameass races, thank-you-very-much.

I couldn't agree more.

[dufflover]

I agree with Sikon in that K2 kinda goes against what's been in Star Wars ever since watching it. I mean there's the EU with comics and books but I've only ever done the on-screen stuff; movies and games.

 

As a side, Half-Life 2 did a similar thing when the whole story expanded heaps and heaps from the original Half-Life but the difference there is that there has not been movies and other games behind it setting up the Half-Life universe.

 

Like I said, I'm not against the True Sith existing, I'm just against them being alive and influencing things (and making Revan run-off and stuff).

[Sikon]

I agree with Sikon in that K2 kinda goes against what's been in Star Wars ever since watching it. I mean there's the EU with comics and books but I've only ever done the on-screen stuff; movies and games.

Wait, what exactly do you agree with? I never meant anything like that.

[CoM_Solaufein]

No. No more munchkin lameass races, thank-you-very-much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No rodians and jawas?

[Xard]

Great, now people are fighting about names. *sigh*

 

True Sith is quite dumb name, but it clearly means those Old Sith Empire remnants, not some weird-looking-munchkin-race. (or maybe they arent remnants anymore, after all, Hyperspace War was millenia ago... " )

 

Kreia ment with true sith, that they were actually sith. (lol, that was stupid argument ) If you remember, Nihilus cared nothing about sith teachings (not "true" sith then), and his soldiers, remnants of Revan/Malak's Sith Empire, surely weren't sith. I mean, they were sith's army, but not true sith. Just soldiers of army named sith. Like stormtroopers of Galactic Empire.

 

Not sure about Sion. He wanted nothing but Jedi's death, but didn't sith want to dominate Galaxy too? So not sure about Sion.

 

Revan was true sith, but different faction of "true sith", if you understand what i mean. He wanted to create his own sith empire and destroy "True sith Empire " with it. Malak was true sith, dumb but true. Palpatine was true sith. Vader was true sith.

 

Sith in Unknown Regions are true sith as well. Of course they are, if they are remnants of Old Sith Empire. (gosh, i'm bored using word "Empire")

 

These new sith of k2 weren't (at least Nihilus wasn't) true sith. Feeding with force user is not "true" sith teaching.

 

Quite confusing message, I hope you understand what i mean... :ph34r:

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

Therefore, the 'Original Sith', which gave birth to the first 'Sith Empite' were fallen or potential Jedi. What makes them special is that they are founders. Nothing more...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If I read that right, you're wrong. The Sith were a race, that has been gone for ages. The first Sith Empire was not made up of fallen or potential Jedi, it was made up by the Sith species.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What!?!?! First it was called 'True Sith', and now a 'Sith Species'.... What type of drugs are people smoking!?!?! Are people trying to take elements from 'The New Jedi Order' series, and intermix them with 'KotOR'???

 

I think that 'The New Jedi Order' series created a massive mess.

 

There is no 'Sith Species'... There is no such thing as a 'True Sith'...

 

The Sith are fallen Jedi, potential Jedi, or Force Sensitives. There are no alien 'species' called 'Sith'... Regardless about how they fall into the darkside, their species background has nothing to do with it...

[Sikon]

First of all, the word "alien" is not applicable in Star Wars.

Second, the Sith species also appeared in Tales of the Jedi, long before NJO.