LoneWolf16 Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 1. I cannot explain the omnipotence/infinite benevolence of God at the same time. I guess I would take a shot at this. If God wants to get rid of all prejudice and hatred, he could; but that will take away our free will as well. Personally, I'd like to think that the world is a workshop and God has given us all the tools necessary to make this world perfect. The rest will depend on us. If God has made the world perfect in the first place, what work is there left for us? Our lives shall then lack purpose. Why would you then ever want to become a man of cloth if there is no work needs to be done? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Our lives have purpose? Why was I not informed!? I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 As an aside, you should read The Brothers Karamazov. It directly tackles the idea of an Omnipotent God letting Evil Things Happen directly from the perspective of the atheist. It is the most compelling argument against religion I have read. The author worried that he had made an argument against religion against which he could not prevail. He, himself, was a devout Christian of the Greek Orthodox flavor for his entire life. You aren't the only person to doubt. Doubt itself is not confined to religion. For my part, I believe that you will find your way. If that way leads you from God, then so be it. I will be disappointed, I admit. I cannot be a Christian without rejoicing in Christianity. On the other hand, religion is such a faulty basis for judging our fellow humans here on earth. To quote from the aforementioned book: "If it can't be decided in the affirmative, it will never ben decided in the negative. You know that that is the peculiarity of your heart, and all its suffering is due to it. But thank the Creator who has given you a lofty heart capable of such suffering; of thinking and seeking higher things, for our dwelling is in the heavens. God grant that your heart will attain the answer on earth, and may God bless your path." Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted November 20, 2005 Author Share Posted November 20, 2005 Remember, it takes a fool to not sometimes doubt the scripture. The visions may have come from God, but they were still interpreted by man. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That is the problem though, at least in my Church's version of Christianity doubting the infallibility of Scripture throws the whole thing topsy turvy. It is divinely inspired, and is perfect. Also, Baley's link isn't the Catholic church doubting it's infallibility, it is bad writing on the author's part, they are doubting the literal extent to which some take it. Though I completely dislike the modern version of God and all the nutjobs who claim to support him........Darkside makes a good point. Comes down to individual interpretation of the scripture. There is no "One true faith" never was, never will be. It's an amalgam of literally millions of different takes on the same basic thing. Don't worry if your version is a little different, CoF. Everybody's is. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Except that in order for Christianity to work properly, you must be 'right'. I am tempted to just give up on the religion entirely, convert to whatever religion my eventual girl is, and leave it at that. And no, none of the religious debate here sparked this, the entire reason I wanted to go into the ministry was to change things, not keep them status quo, and now I am wondering if my motives were wrong, and the religion is good as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laozi Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 (edited) I hope you find a path that is right for you. I can only suggest that you go where you can "feel' god. As a former Christian I still love Jesus with all my heart, and believe him to be the son of god, as we all are. I wouldn't be sure what to teach a child about religion, its a tough thing to consider Edited November 20, 2005 by Laozi People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreptishus Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Don't become another David Koresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrielle Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WITHTEETH Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Burn! I think Gabrielle needs a hug! :D Always outnumbered, never out gunned! Unreal Tournament 2004 Handle:Enlight_2.0 Myspace Website! My rig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 for you CoF... SCIENTOLOGY- You KNOW you want it DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrielle Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WITHTEETH Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Don't hide your true feelings! :'( Always outnumbered, never out gunned! Unreal Tournament 2004 Handle:Enlight_2.0 Myspace Website! My rig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Moth Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 (edited) Remember this, CoF: God gave us a free will. If there were no free will, there'd be no purpose to our lives. We'd all be just actors following a script. The fact that you're doubting you're faith, believe it or not, is a good sign, as Darkside so wisely pointed out. Only through doubting will you be able to determine if what you follow is truly what you want. The Bible was divinely inspired, but written by humans. While there will be errors in the scripture because of this, the lessons of God is still contained within. I highly doubt God would give us a set of scriptures to follow if they were nowhere near the true faith. As I said earlier, try praying to God to show you the right path, whatever it may be. It's well worth it. We all have a purpose. Edited November 20, 2005 by Mothman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted November 21, 2005 Author Share Posted November 21, 2005 Meh. There are some truths in the Bible that are so explicitly stated there is no way around them. I have been praying, but I'm getting know answers. Maybe I'm just not crazy enough to be a minister. Also, this crisis in faith was inspired, in part at least, by a woman. Call her my Eve I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 (edited) One who prays to outside sources trying to find answers will often get the "no longer in service" error. Those who look within themselves and contemplate their own faith of themselves will find they answers the seek but it may not always be the answer they want. No one person can make another doubt his or her faith unless the seed of doubt was already in place. When in doubt, don't. Edited November 21, 2005 by Hades_One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Also, this crisis in faith was inspired, in part at least, by a woman. Call her my Eve I guess. An apple a day keeps paradise at bay... *muahaha*... Ahem :"> On a more serious note young man, you know that you were given the free will and a brain for a purpose right ? If you had blind faith, you would be no better than the nutcases that blow stuff up. You might as well have been born as a wrench or screwdriver then, a simple tool for a purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what is the purpose of faith if it was easy ? Where would be the challenge of that ? Lean back, relax, close your eyes, think, why did you believe in the first place ? What has changed, that made you question what made you believe in the first place ? Sometimes, people are able to answer their own questions, once they voice them out loud... “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted November 21, 2005 Author Share Posted November 21, 2005 Also, this crisis in faith was inspired, in part at least, by a woman. Call her my Eve I guess. An apple a day keeps paradise at bay... *muahaha*... Ahem :"> On a more serious note young man, you know that you were given the free will and a brain for a purpose right ? If you had blind faith, you would be no better than the nutcases that blow stuff up. You might as well have been born as a wrench or screwdriver then, a simple tool for a purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what is the purpose of faith if it was easy ? Where would be the challenge of that ? Lean back, relax, close your eyes, think, why did you believe in the first place ? What has changed, that made you question what made you believe in the first place ? Sometimes, people are able to answer their own questions, once they voice them out loud... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. God is both bloodthirsty as the fires of Hell and benevolent, it doesn't make sense. 2. I was brought up in it, I fell away once, crawled back after I decided it was the people in the church, not the face of God himself, that bothered me. 3. Faith has always been relatively easy to keep for me, now there is the prospect of a relationship with her, but if I were to follow through with it, there would be a very uneven yoke, in all other aspects she is totally sweet and awesome, like a ninja. 4. I talk to God, but he never returns my calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Moth Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 (edited) 1. God is both bloodthirsty as the fires of Hell and benevolent, it doesn't make sense. 2. I was brought up in it, I fell away once, crawled back after I decided it was the people in the church, not the face of God himself, that bothered me. 3. Faith has always been relatively easy to keep for me, now there is the prospect of a relationship with her, but if I were to follow through with it, there would be a very uneven yoke, in all other aspects she is totally sweet and awesome, like a ninja. 4. I talk to God, but he never returns my calls. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. God is also just, remember that. God just doesn't send people to Hell for no reason. Why would he go through the trouble of sending Jesus down here if he didn't care if we went to Hell or not? 2. Sad but true that followers can drive others away. Sometimes you have to look at the face of the faith, not the people who practice it to know the truth. 3. Does she have a problem with your faith, or are you afraid the difference in faiths will drive you apart? 4. I know this sounds really cliche, but perhaps you aren't listening, or he/she/it hasn't been giving you the answers you want to hear. Or perhaps you just need to look inside and ask what your gut instinct tells you. Also, have you talked to anyone else about this? Edited November 21, 2005 by Mothman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted November 21, 2005 Author Share Posted November 21, 2005 1. God is both bloodthirsty as the fires of Hell and benevolent, it doesn't make sense. 2. I was brought up in it, I fell away once, crawled back after I decided it was the people in the church, not the face of God himself, that bothered me. 3. Faith has always been relatively easy to keep for me, now there is the prospect of a relationship with her, but if I were to follow through with it, there would be a very uneven yoke, in all other aspects she is totally sweet and awesome, like a ninja. 4. I talk to God, but he never returns my calls. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. God is also just, remember that. God just doesn't send people to Hell for no reason. Why would he go through the trouble of sending Jesus down here if he didn't care if we went to Hell or not? 2. Sad but true that followers can drive others away. Have you talked to anyone else about this? 3. Does she have a problem with your faith, or are you afraid the difference in faiths will drive you apart? 4. I know this sounds really cliche, but perhaps you aren't listening, or he/she/it hasn't been giving you the answers you want to hear. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. I am not talking about Hell, if it was just hell it wouldn't be so much of a problem. It is his crusades in the OT, telling the Israelites to slaughter entire peoples down to the last man, woman, and child, floods, natural disasters, etc. 2. That is not the problem anymore, I crawled back, remember. 3. Ironically, she has been encouraging me to keep my faith more than most people in this thread, but after seeing what it did to my aunt's kids growing up, I'd sooner consider converting to my spouse's religion than raising children in a 'divided' home. 4. I have heard this so many times, and have taken it to heart so many times, I don't need to be told again, thanks anyway though Mothie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WITHTEETH Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Have you ever read A Mans Search For Meaning by Victor Frankl? Its a great read. Basically it talks about how most suffering is because of a lack of meaning to it. if you add meaning then the suffering is bearable. It gives many examples. It also states that man has control of himself. The situation doesn't control the man. He was a psychologist and a neurologist. He was in concentration camps to, the concentration camps were a big influence on this book. His study is called Logotherapy. Always outnumbered, never out gunned! Unreal Tournament 2004 Handle:Enlight_2.0 Myspace Website! My rig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrielle Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Mythology, gotta love it in this day and age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WITHTEETH Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Mythology, gotta love it in this day and age. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Are you refering to Logotherapy? Always outnumbered, never out gunned! Unreal Tournament 2004 Handle:Enlight_2.0 Myspace Website! My rig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baley Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Organized religion is s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted November 21, 2005 Author Share Posted November 21, 2005 Oh, I'll always be a deist whether I follow the Christian religion or not until the exact minute science can explain the creation of the universe, no supernatural forces setting things in motion. At this point in time, according to the laws of physics, there is no explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WITHTEETH Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Oh, I'll always be a deist whether I follow the Christian religion or not until the exact minute science can explain the creation of the universe, no supernatural forces setting things in motion. At this point in time, according to the laws of physics, there is no explanation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> May i ask what was the catalyst to the events to you losing your faith? Have you been reading or discussing anyting in paticular? Always outnumbered, never out gunned! Unreal Tournament 2004 Handle:Enlight_2.0 Myspace Website! My rig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 If I may draw an analogy, this makes me think of the Army officers I know. The majority of them have faith in the Army, and its mission. This communicates itself to their men, keeping them focussed. It also reinforces their drive to be professional and encourage professionalism. It seems an integral part of their job to believe as stonrgly as they do. However, the very best of the officers I know do not have complete faith. In fact they have all at one time or another been ready to chuck everything in for one reason or another. Events and people. But they are still in the Army. I think their doubts, and their perception of the ugliness in the institution merely convinces them to try even harder to make it what it is not. In doing so, a surprising number have achieved a degree of success. I would suggest that you consider what benefit their may be in a priest who sees that our holy churches are not without flaws, but being dissatisfied with that he will try to better them. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted November 21, 2005 Author Share Posted November 21, 2005 Oh, I'll always be a deist whether I follow the Christian religion or not until the exact minute science can explain the creation of the universe, no supernatural forces setting things in motion. At this point in time, according to the laws of physics, there is no explanation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> May i ask what was the catalyst to the events to you losing your faith? Have you been reading or discussing anyting in paticular? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have been reading the Bible, a lot, I have been reading Job (not the book in the Bible, but the one by Robert Heinlein), and been thinking about starting a relationship with the aforementioned girl, which would not be right under my current belief system. It's not just that though, a lot of reflection has gone on also. Was I thinking about going into the ministry for my motives, or for the greater glory of God? Do I even believe in what I would be teaching with my entire heart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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