Civilization 4

[mkreku]

What if the knights have crossbows and longbows with fire arrows?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

What if the knights have crossbows and longbows with fire arrows?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then they wouldnt be knights :D

[Spider]

It's not that they can't attack, it's that if you send a 10/10 infantry against a 10/10 helicopter the results are totally predictable. A full strength infanty can just about take down a 1/10 helicopter, which again makes logical sense.

Knights on the other hand can't reach a helicopter, it's completely impossible. Then again it's been something thats been part of every Civ game I suppose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The thing is that civ isn't a combat simulator. It's long term strategy. A turns takes at the minimum a year to complete. Then how the battles take place is pretty much left to the imagination. There are many ways knights can defeat an attacking helicopter, it's not like the only thing they can do is charge with lances.

 

Although it's a stupid argument to be having. It's not like realism is what's important in a game like Civ.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The thing is that civ isn't a combat simulator. It's long term strategy. A turns takes at the minimum a year to complete. Then how the battles take place is pretty much left to the imagination. There are many ways knights can defeat an attacking helicopter, it's not like the only thing they can do is charge with lances.

 

Although it's a stupid argument to be having. It's not like realism is what's important in a game like Civ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It should still make some sort of logical sense though. You would have to really apply the imagination to rationalise knights taking out a helicopter (well unless you were playing TORN )

 

It isnt ?

[Reveilled]

The thing is that civ isn't a combat simulator. It's long term strategy. A turns takes at the minimum a year to complete. Then how the battles take place is pretty much left to the imagination. There are many ways knights can defeat an attacking helicopter, it's not like the only thing they can do is charge with lances.

 

Although it's a stupid argument to be having. It's not like realism is what's important in a game like Civ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It should still make some sort of logical sense though. You would have to really apply the imagination to rationalise knights taking out a helicopter (well unless you were playing TORN )

 

It isnt ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I don't think it takes that much imagination. Helicopter crashes due to pilot error. Helicopter crashes due to bad weather. Badly damaged helicopter suffers mechanical malfunction and crashes.

 

And I certainly don't remember anywhere where anyone officially associated with the Civ games has said all the units are assumed to be combat ready. Source?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

No, I don't think it takes that much imagination.  Helicopter crashes due to pilot error.  Helicopter crashes due to bad weather.  Badly damaged helicopter suffers mechanical malfunction and crashes.

 

And I certainly don't remember anywhere where anyone officially associated with the Civ games has said all the units are assumed to be combat ready.  Source?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Those things are the unit killing itself, not the knight killing it. Again it makes no sense in the combat resolution. There isnt any way to rationalise it, it probably wont spoil the game though, as long as its not a common occurance.

 

Since the units are matched vs each other then they must be combat ready. I dont recall anything in Civ where units are caught by suprise.

[Enoch]

This type of occurrence is always going to be a problem in Civ, because, however illogical, it is far more fair than the alternative. Civ deals with the progression of technology over the course of all of human history. The problem is that each incremental step has to be balanced. If you weight the advancement such that modern units always beat pre-modern ones, you've got to either apply an 'untouchable' variable at some point (so that even the most damaged raw recruit will always defeat the most decorated pre-modern units) or increase the factor by which unit power increases with advancements. The first is unrealistic and arbitrary, and the second magnifies the importance of every jump in military tech, which gives an increasing advantage to players who go on a military tech rush (already a very potent strategy).

 

Anyhow, one incident of (veteran, fortified) Knight over (badly damaged) Gunship doesn't prove anything to me. We'll see how the balance really works out when the game hits the streets this week.

[Reveilled]

No, I don't think it takes that much imagination.  Helicopter crashes due to pilot error.  Helicopter crashes due to bad weather.  Badly damaged helicopter suffers mechanical malfunction and crashes.

 

And I certainly don't remember anywhere where anyone officially associated with the Civ games has said all the units are assumed to be combat ready.  Source?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Those things are the unit killing itself, not the knight killing it. Again it makes no sense in the combat resolution. There isnt any way to rationalise it, it probably wont spoil the game though, as long as its not a common occurance.

 

If the Helicopter wasn't in battle with the knights, there would be no chance of the crash. The knights aren't doing the killing, the combat is. I don't see how this doesn't make sense. In real life battles, a lot more than just the fighters affects the outcome. If we assume that the combats in Civ are actual battles, such things should be taken into account if one wishes to imagine the course of the battle.

 

Since the units are matched vs each other then they must be combat ready. I dont recall anything in Civ where units are caught by suprise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The second clause of the first sentence doesn't follow from the first. Why must they be combat ready?

Combat in Civ is an abstraction. Unless surprise is modeled in the simulation in some other way, or someone from Firaxis explicitly said otherwise, I don't see why a surprise attack cannot be imagined as being a part of that abstraction.

Edited October 25, 2005 by Reveilled

[Cantousent]

This type of occurrence is always going to be a problem in Civ, because, however illogical, it is far more fair than the alternative.  Civ deals with the progression of technology over the course of all of human history.  The problem is that each incremental step has to be balanced.  If you weight the advancement such that modern units always beat pre-modern ones, you've got to either apply an 'untouchable' variable at some point (so that even the most damaged raw recruit will always defeat the most decorated pre-modern units) or increase the factor by which unit power increases with advancements.  The first is unrealistic and arbitrary, and the second magnifies the importance of every jump in military tech, which gives an increasing advantage to players who go on a military tech rush (already a very potent strategy).

 

Anyhow, one incident of (veteran, fortified) Knight over (badly damaged) Gunship doesn't prove anything to me.  We'll see how the balance really works out when the game hits the streets this week.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

As always, Enoch cuts through the fluff and gets to the point. There are only so many alternatives. If it's a deal breaker tha the helicopter is, on very rare occassions, destroyed the phalanx then the deal is broken. There's no getting around it without dramatically changing the game. I'd much rather have the streamlined combat that allows me to gather resources, build cities, and research techno. Adding another layer or two of combat because of the occassions when a knight destroys a chopter unit just doesn't make the game sound more fun.

[kumquatq3]

Adding another layer or two of combat because of the occassions when a knight destroys a chopter unit just doesn't make the game sound more fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just, you know, not retarded

 

I mean, a guy with a musket I can reluctantly buy, but....

 

 

 

ah **** it

[Darth_Schmarth]

I've come to understand that the Spearman-beats-Tank issue has been sorted. I will wait until I've actuallt played the game before giving my verdict on combat, though.

[Enoch]

More Beta-tester goodness: A walkthrough of the early game.

 

Some good bits on early research strategy, unit promotions, religions, build order, and the controversial wild animals.

[metadigital]

No, I don't think it takes that much imagination.  Helicopter crashes due to pilot error.  Helicopter crashes due to bad weather.  Badly damaged helicopter suffers mechanical malfunction and crashes.

 

And I certainly don't remember anywhere where anyone officially associated with the Civ games has said all the units are assumed to be combat ready.  Source?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those things are the unit killing itself, not the knight killing it. Again it makes no sense in the combat resolution. There isnt any way to rationalise it, it probably wont spoil the game though, as long as its not a common occurance.

 

If the Helicopter wasn't in battle with the knights, there would be no chance of the crash. The knights aren't doing the killing, the combat is. I don't see how this doesn't make sense. In real life battles, a lot more than just the fighters affects the outcome. If we assume that the combats in Civ are actual battles, such things should be taken into account if one wishes to imagine the course of the battle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, kinda like how more soldiers died from disease in early protracted conflicts (like the US civil war) and influenza in WW1. God doesn't grant time-outs for the side taking more non-military casualties.

 

Hmmm ... there's an aspect not covered in Civ: death due to plagues and pandemics ...

Since the units are matched vs each other then they must be combat ready. I dont recall anything in Civ where units are caught by suprise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The second clause of the first sentence doesn't follow from the first. Why must they be combat ready?

Combat in Civ is an abstraction. Unless surprise is modeled in the simulation in some other way, or someone from Firaxis explicitly said otherwise, I don't see why a surprise attack cannot be imagined as being a part of that abstraction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The turns are anyhere from one year long and up; it is quite feasible that a bunch of knights could stake-out a helicopter's flightpath to find it's weakest moment.

 

Don't forget the rag-tag bunch of bronze-age warriors in Mogadishu who took out a blackhawk with a single (rocket-powered) grenade; all the knights need is the holy hand-grenade of Antioch ...

[random evil guy]

The thing is that civ isn't a combat simulator. It's long term strategy. A turns takes at the minimum a year to complete. Then how the battles take place is pretty much left to the imagination. There are many ways knights can defeat an attacking helicopter, it's not like the only thing they can do is charge with lances.

 

Although it's a stupid argument to be having. It's not like realism is what's important in a game like Civ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It should still make some sort of logical sense though. You would have to really apply the imagination to rationalise knights taking out a helicopter (well unless you were playing TORN )

 

It isnt ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I don't think it takes that much imagination. Helicopter crashes due to pilot error. Helicopter crashes due to bad weather. Badly damaged helicopter suffers mechanical malfunction and crashes.

 

And I certainly don't remember anywhere where anyone officially associated with the Civ games has said all the units are assumed to be combat ready. Source?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

but aren't one unit supposed to represent several individual units? a bataljon, division or whatever...

 

i doubt that all of the helicopters would crash. i'd accept it if the knight AND helicopter could survive the battle, but there is no way a knight 'unit' could beat a helicopter 'unit'...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The turns are anyhere from one year long and up; it is quite feasible that a bunch of knights could stake-out a helicopter's flightpath to find it's weakest moment.

 

Don't forget the rag-tag bunch of bronze-age warriors in Mogadishu who took out a blackhawk with a single (rocket-powered) grenade; all the knights need is the holy hand-grenade of Antioch ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

At which point they cease to be knights. Just like you cant use the 1000+ personel on an aircraft carrier in any way other than to make it function in Civ.

 

A lance is not a rocket powered grenade.

 

Enoch has the right idea. Just hope it dosnt happen often enough to become a factor.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

but aren't one unit supposed to represent several individual units? a bataljon, division or whatever...

 

i doubt that all of the helicopters would crash. i'd accept it if the knight AND helicopter could survive the battle, but there is no way a knight 'unit' could beat a helicopter 'unit'...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Looks that way a warrior unit is made up of 3 warriors (no idea what they represent).

 

I accept Enochs balance arguement. But it kills the credibility when lance armed knights can "kill" a helicopter.

[Deraldin]

i doubt that all of the helicopters would crash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That depends on if those helicopters were Canadian Forces Seakings or not. "

Edited October 25, 2005 by Deraldin

[Oerwinde]

i doubt that all of the helicopters would crash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That depends on if those helicopters were Canadian Forces Seakings or not. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Zing

 

 

Anyway, I just bought the game online, had to use a canadian retailer to avoid the damn customs fees so I couldn't get the neat preorder version. Was cheap though. Future Shop had it for 49.99, canadian. EBgames is selling it for the same, only thats in US dollars.

Edited October 26, 2005 by Oerwinde

[Delta Truth]

Even though the reviews have come up pretty good, I am still on the fence if I should get this or not .. I guess I will just wait for for reviews or if the price drops later hmm

[metadigital]

The turns are anyhere from one year long and up; it is quite feasible that a bunch of knights could stake-out a helicopter's flightpath to find it's weakest moment.

 

Don't forget the rag-tag bunch of bronze-age warriors in Mogadishu who took out a blackhawk with a single (rocket-powered) grenade; all the knights need is the holy hand-grenade of Antioch ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At which point they cease to be knights. Just like you cant use the 1000+ personel on an aircraft carrier in any way other than to make it function in Civ.

 

A lance is not a rocket powered grenade.

 

Enoch has the right idea. Just hope it dosnt happen often enough to become a factor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Arthur's knights used the holy hand-grenade of Antioch, and they were real knights.

[kumquatq3]

Gamespot gives it 9.4

[Delta Truth]

Just read the review for it seems pretty good but I am already a fan of the series

but seems interesting that cottages will earn your cities money

 

wonder if you can still travel the continent on rail in only one turn

[kumquatq3]

I'm prolly going to pick this up on the strength of "Pirates!". That was a great game, it did get old sorta quick, but it gave you alot before it did.

[Oerwinde]

I'm prolly going to pick this up on the strength of "Pirates!". That was a great game, it did get old sorta quick, but it gave you alot before it did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I picked it up because all 3 of the previous games sucked hundreds of hours out of my life each, and this is apparently the best of the bunch. Apparently my copy won't get here until nov 1st, so I might have to use the filthy bittorrent to get my taste before my copy arrives. Go laziness.

[Lord Tingeling]

Swedish gaming magazine SuperPlay game it 10/10

 

I guess they're the swedish equivalent of IGN.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes.

 

I still remember them giving FF6 a 10/10 and Operation Flashpoint something stupid like 6/10. Well, having pixels usually adds about two points to the score in the case of SuperPlay, anyway.

 

Never really liked that magazine.

Edited October 27, 2005 by Lord Tingeling