Odysseus the embodiment of cunning...

[Cantousent]

Parry

[metadigital]

This particular section, dealing with epithets, argues that Homer's Odysseus is the embodiment of human Metis.  It argues that Homer conveys the breadth of Odyseus' briliance partly by use of epithet.  Then, the paper goes to great lengths to argue that, while epithets usually don't have much meaning in terms of actual action, they are significant in regards to innate characteristics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What connotation are you using for Metis?

 

It seems like you are implying a generic "human intellect" description; "M

[Darth Drabek]

Haha, I was taking a course in college called "Greek Gods and Heroes" last winter I believe - anyway, I posted a really long comparison between the plot of TSL and that of the Odyssey. It went over like a lead balloon if I remember correctly.

 

But yeah, mythology is FUN!

 

(I will read your post and comment, Eldar. Just not right now.)

[Calax]

I just liked reading the Oddesy in hs because it gave us an excuse to watch Star Wars. Appearently It's a consensus that Luke is a Epic Hero....

[metadigital]

Parry

[Darth Drabek]

Note on translations:

 

I read Fagles' Illiad and Lattimore's Odyssey. I prefer Lattimore's work, it's not quite as spartan (pun INtended!).

 

But seriously, the difference wasn't as pronounced as when I read the Tale of Genji for a Japanese History class... I wanted to repeatedly puncture my professor with a sharp stick for assigning the Seidersticker translation after reading a little of someone else's version.

[Cantousent]

Finally, I can comment on homosexuality without derailing poor pixies thread. Homosexuality was a complex topic, even in ancient Greece. The rule of thumb is that it didn't draw shame to act as the penetrator, but that the penetrated was held in scorn. Of course, there are some significant examples to the contrary, such as Thebes, etc.

[Gorth]

I seem to remember some old text book material that suggested, that homosexuality between males, were the highest form of affection, whereas between females were considered the lowest form (men being considered "higher" beings than women). It might of course be all urban legends and I usually question the validity of older school text books.

 

As for the use of epithets in oral poetry, how much is a tool for memorisation and how much is a tool for truly describing aspects of characters ?

 

Are the gentlemen discussing the merits of epithets really discussing things, that the original author never thought about ? But just used ad hoc because it was the way it was done and the way it was intended to be used ?

 

Oh, now that I remember it, was Odysseus really as smart as the author gives him credit for ?

 

I seem to remember me questioning once whether his use of metis was deliberate or a result of adrenaline induced resourcefulness....

[Cantousent]

Yes, I remember that disussion. First of all, meta had a good point concerning the adjectival use of epithets.

 

Epithets are used as a device for quick versification. They present a way to form verse on the fly, if you will. The thing is, epithets don't tend to outright lie. Why would Odysseus be the only person who sports the epithet of Polymetis? The epithet isn't attributed to others at random. The Greek term of Metis, which is both a proper name of a goddess and a term denoting resourceful or wise, carries more than one connotation, and so the reader must put the epithet in context with other evidence, such as how other characters view Odysseus and what Odysseus does in the epic.

 

There is a school of thought that sees Odysseus as nothing more than a good liar. I respect that view, but I disagree with it. I'm going to bring in some more excerpts. Hopefully we can continue the discussion.

[metadigital]

*sits on the edge of his chair*

[Cantousent]

In the strictest sense, the reader must do nothing but enjoy any of the epithets. Regardless of the manner of their use, epithets in both epics serve only to further the end of this endeavor: enjoyment. However, as it regards Odysseus and his intelligence, it is imperative to put epithets in their proper place. For this reason, Nagy has more the right of it than Parry.

[Calax]

well Epithets are generally used as a derogitory term nowadays, so whenever i see you say that Homer referred to Odysseus with an epithet I think Homer is using some sort of Racial slur...

[Cantousent]

hahaha. My wife had the same problem, Calax.

[metadigital]

In the strictest sense, the reader must do nothing but enjoy any of the epithets.  Regardless of the manner of their use, epithets in both epics serve only to further the end of this endeavor: enjoyment.  However, as it regards Odysseus and his intelligence, it is imperative to put epithets in their proper place.  For this reason, Nagy has more the right of it than Parry. 

[Calax]

In America the term Epithet is generally used in conjuction with words like the N word used for African Americans and similar terms for Mexican Americans (I mean no offence to those who are of the latino and African denominations) so most children learn that epithet is a word that encompasses those derogitory words.

 

ELDAR EDIT: Calax, your use was entirely in line. I edited it simply because the terms are so charged that I don't even want to invite angst. Indeed, epithet has come to mean "racial epithet" in American English. that's too bad since the term literally means something that is "put on" or "put against" something else.

[EnderAndrew]

I don't think I will ever read either as the story just doesn't interest me. I read Shakespeare's take and I was extremely bored. Everyone talks about the Illiad and the Odyssey, and neither have ever seemed remotely interesting to me.

[metadigital]

I don't think I will ever read either as the story just doesn't interest me.  I read Shakespeare's take and I was extremely bored.  Everyone talks about the Illiad and the Odyssey, and neither have ever seemed remotely interesting to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's important to be comfortably familiar with any and all social imfluences, whether it is the imortal lines uttered by Clint Eastwood as Harry Calahan in the Dirty Harry films ("Go ahead, make my day."), or the scene with Leo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet on the bow of the Titanic.

 

That way, I feel, it is from a more knowledgeable standpoint that we may draw inferences and conclusions.

 

Further, stories that have had a deep impact on the society we live in, however ancient, are worthy of the same familiarity. (Significant artistic and linguistic merit, notwithstanding.)

 

Then again, I love to learn.

[Cantousent]

*Shrug* If you find the Iliad and Odyssey boring or offensive, this thread isn't for you. Still, when folks talk about derivative, this would be an example of something from which other works are derived.

 

Some folks don't like Shakespeare, Tolkien, or Rowling. I don't begrudge you the fact that you don't find Homer interesting if you don't begrudge me discussing it with folks who do.

[Cantousent]

The question, then, comes down to the impact pre-Homeric folktales, combined with post-Homeric literature, have on the overall argument concerning epithets. The answer is that epithets came from an ancient oral tradition, as Parry asserts, in which the most valued heroes of the culture were well defined. If W. Headlam is correct in writing,

[213374U]

I think it's important to be comfortably familiar with any and all social imfluences, whether it is the imortal lines uttered by Clint Eastwood as Harry Calahan in the Dirty Harry films ("Go ahead, make my day."), or the scene with Leo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet on the bow of the Titanic.

 

That way, I feel, it is from a more knowledgeable standpoint that we may draw inferences and conclusions.

 

Further, stories that have had a deep impact on the society we live in, however ancient, are worthy of the same familiarity. (Significant artistic and linguistic merit, notwithstanding.)

 

Then again, I love to learn.

Yeah, well. Some "social influences" could be considered rather brain-rotting. I'd rather not get comfortably familiar with those.

 

 

*Shrug*  If you find the Iliad and Odyssey boring or offensive, this thread isn't for you.  Still, when folks talk about derivative, this would be an example of something from which other works are derived.

 

Some folks don't like Shakespeare, Tolkien, or Rowling.  I don't begrudge you the fact that you don't find Homer interesting if you don't begrudge me discussing it with folks who do.

In my case, it's not that I don't like the Odyssey or the Iliad. It's that I wasn't made to enjoy poetry. I've tried to start reading the Iliad a few times and I always end up falling asleep.

[Cantousent]

I know what you mean. The Iliad has a couple of thing that tend to drive away readers. For one thing, a lot of students are disgusted by the graphic violence. That's probably not a problem for you, since you're a fellow RPG/wargamer. On the other hand, the work is so rife with violence it becomes monotonous. To be honest, I would suggest the Odyssey or, since I'm being completely candid, The Aeneid.

 

Still, epics aren't for everyone. I find epics fascinating, but they're certainly not engaging in the same way as, say, a novel.

[metadigital]

I think it's important to be comfortably familiar with any and all social imfluences, whether it is the imortal lines uttered by Clint Eastwood as Harry Calahan in the Dirty Harry films ("Go ahead, make my day."), or the scene with Leo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet on the bow of the Titanic.

 

That way, I feel, it is from a more knowledgeable standpoint that we may draw inferences and conclusions.

 

Further, stories that have had a deep impact on the society we live in, however ancient, are worthy of the same familiarity. (Significant artistic and linguistic merit, notwithstanding.)

 

Then again, I love to learn.

Yeah, well. Some "social influences" could be considered rather brain-rotting. I'd rather not get comfortably familiar with those.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a valid point, though even awful truths are better to be known then ignored, I feel. Information WANTS to be free, after all.

[LoneWolf16]

I know what you mean.  The Iliad has a couple of thing that tend to drive away readers.  For one thing, a lot of students are disgusted by the graphic violence.  That's probably not a problem for you, since you're a fellow RPG/wargamer.  On the other hand, the work is so rife with violence it becomes monotonous.  To be honest, I would suggest the Odyssey or, since I'm being completely candid, The Aeneid.

 

Still, epics aren't for everyone.  I find epics fascinating, but they're certainly not engaging in the same way as, say, a novel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I couldn't really get into them...for two major reasons.

 

1. A good deal of the terms are somewhat obscure, and the way sentences are structured can get overly confusing some times...at least in the versions I've had available to me.

 

2. They seem, to me, to lack focus...often going on about something or other that doesn't really involve anything related to the plot itself. I'd like at least some point to be there...

 

Then again, maybe I'm reading into things too much, or just not enough.

[LoneWolf16]

I think it's important to be comfortably familiar with any and all social imfluences, whether it is the imortal lines uttered by Clint Eastwood as Harry Calahan in the Dirty Harry films ("Go ahead, make my day."), or the scene with Leo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet on the bow of the Titanic.

 

That way, I feel, it is from a more knowledgeable standpoint that we may draw inferences and conclusions.

 

Further, stories that have had a deep impact on the society we live in, however ancient, are worthy of the same familiarity. (Significant artistic and linguistic merit, notwithstanding.)

 

Then again, I love to learn.

Yeah, well. Some "social influences" could be considered rather brain-rotting. I'd rather not get comfortably familiar with those.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a valid point, though even awful truths are better to be known then ignored, I feel. Information WANTS to be free, after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Honestly...some things we're better off not knowing.

[metadigital]

As I said, you may feel better off not knowing; I prefer to know.