alanschu Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 No, so why should Israel be forced to give up land on the arguement is that the claim of land to take if from Egypt wasn't valid. If that's the case, then give it to Egypt. Perhaps Egypt supports the decision to give it to the Palestine? Why was it part of Egypt earlier? And what were the people's views? Besides, things change in half a century. So, if the majority of a group of people in an area want to have the minority forcibly displaced, this is cool? Even if it the majority was forcibly displaced off of it earlier?
Walsingham Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 Oh, I'm sure the English don't mind. But the Scots, the Welsh, and the Irish (in Northern Ireland) do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Im about as English as you can get and I object to my nation being called England. England would never have achieved half of what she did without the brains and brawn of the other kingdoms. So when people talk about us, which is because we achieved and affected so much, I think they deserve a mention. Azarkon, you make a good point about drawing a state in a overnment office, and a state formed around a map table somewhere. My response would be that whatever your definition of a state, there should be some minimum cut-off of people in a given area. not sure what that should be, but we all know it's true. Tim McVeigh and his white-supremacist fethwit buddies claimed to represent the whole of the US, much as Osama MacLaden claims to represent all Islam. Neither can claim that right. Their only rational is overweening personal arrogance. Ender, you keep referring to Arabs dancing about in the street after bombings. this does happen. But according to all three of the foreign correspondents I know, as well as Fieldings, this is behaviour that you have to go hunting for, and generally only gets properly going when the cameras show up. The Arab world reacted in pretty similar ways to the West, when it saw the real footage of the victims and events, which it didn't always get to see. I might also point out that in more hardline parts of the Islamic world, a good bombing is the only excuse you have to get out in the street and boogie. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.
EnderAndrew Posted August 20, 2005 Author Posted August 20, 2005 [Many settlements were built on land that legally belongs to someone else, Palestinians, except that Israel didn't recognise the validity of their ownership. I am flat out refusing to acknowledge your posts in this thread from here on out. You insist on talking about legality. You say Israel doesn't have a legal right to the land, citing UN law as the final authority. However you refuse to recognize UN law in regards to the US and Iraq. You also claim the land legally belonged to Palestine. Given that Palestine does not exist as a seperate state, the land cannot legally belong to them. It never has. There is zero legal claim for Palestine to the land. Your hypocritical stance on UN law, and failure to understand what constitutes a legal arguement make it impossible to have any level of debate on this issue. But that's impossible, and the settlers have brought this upon themselves by their conduct...They have been the most vociferous opponents of Palestinian self-determination and economic development. Given that you only turn to Palestinian news sites, and refuse to use third-party sources, it doesn't surprise me that you would villianize settlers that are murdered daily. Point me to a third party, objective news source that shows the settlers themselves have somehow harmed Palestinians as a people and ruined their economic development. Seriously, I have no clue where you come up with this. If the settlers stay and are murdered by Palestinian terrorists I will condemn it as an outrage, but I would rather not have to do that. I fail to believe that sentiment since you don't acknowledge the terrorist activities going on now. Ultimately I suspect many settlers are not grieving for the loss of their homes but for the loss of their dream of a Greater Israel, and for that I feel no sympathy with them whatsoever. God forbid a people should have a home. Their people have only been the targets of genocide and persecution through the entirety of written history. Yes, let us find them at fault for dreaming they might have a place to live in peace. I am done with you.
SteveThaiBinh Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 I am done with you. I'm sorry to hear that. I was enjoying the debate, and I've tried to keep my contributions constructive and civil. Perhaps it's been a mistake to try to discuss this while there are emotive pictures on television screens of settlers being dragged out of their homes. You clearly have strong views about this issue, as do I. This is my last contribution to this thread. Have fun, everyone! "An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)
Kaftan Barlast Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 17 pages is too much to go through so Ill just make a short statement: They settlers were occupying Palestinian territory, they had no right to be there and their presence only served to worsen the conflict. And compared to what the Israeli have been doing to Palestinians, bulldozing their houses, moving them from camp to camp, internment etc. ; this is nothing. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "
metadigital Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 I wonder, would the world have less wars if we were completely homogeneous? That is, if we were all one race, one religion and whatnot, would things be better? Or would we just fight over different stuff? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> People fight their family members, so I doubt the issues are external to humans. We are wired to be competitive, and that means fighting. And war is just the logical extension of this. People would argue about which end of the egg should be opened. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Cantousent Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 First of all, I hope folks go back to read some of Lucius' newly visible posts. The Prussian one was actually quite funny. Second of all, please don't start calling each other anit-semites and racists and such. If someone's post seems questionable you, be assured that it probably seems questionable to others. If someone's post is outright racist, they'll undoubtedly be warned and the post culled, so no biggie. Finally, what about Jewish children born in the settled areas? I know you guys have discussed this in the thread, but it seems to be the best response to the idea that the Jews have no right to be in the settled areas. Does that include children who had no control over where they were born? meta sometimes bristles at American indifference, but the Israel and Palestine conflict is certainly an object of concern to most Americans. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends!
Reveilled Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 I wonder, would the world have less wars if we were completely homogeneous? That is, if we were all one race, one religion and whatnot, would things be better? Or would we just fight over different stuff? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> People fight their family members, so I doubt the issues are external to humans. We are wired to be competitive, and that means fighting. And war is just the logical extension of this. People would argue about which end of the egg should be opened. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, that's obvious. You open it from the bottom, and I'll kill anyone who disagrees with me. Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN!
metadigital Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 ...Finally, what about Jewish children born in the settled areas? I know you guys have discussed this in the thread, but it seems to be the best response to the idea that the Jews have no right to be in the settled areas. Does that include children who had no control over where they were born? meta sometimes bristles at American indifference, but the Israel and Palestine conflict is certainly an object of concern to most Americans. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What about them? I don't see the point you are trying to make. Personally I don't see what all the fuss is about, the place is a desert with no natural resources. But, people shouldn't kill each other in polite society. So, the only option, when both sides have extremists calling for the blood of all the others, is to remove the extremists. (I'd suggest putting them in a desert, but that hasn't worked ... maybe a desert isle?) If the others can live in peace together, like all other nations and sub-national ethic minorities must and have down through history, then all is well. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Cantousent Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 The settled areas provide homes for the children born there. They have just as much right to those homes as anyone. In the US, you are a citizen if you are born here. ...Well, aside from the weird arrangement regarding native Americans which was changed, I believe. So, if a pregnant woman comes across the border illegally and gives birth, the infant is considered a citizen. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends!
metadigital Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 So? If I am born on a boat that sinks, does that mean I have to swim with the fish? I understood what you were saying, I just don't agree it's as important as you are making out. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Cantousent Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 Don't be intentionally obstruse. Throughout the thread, folks have claimed the Jews have no right to the settled areas, but it isn't just the folks who decided to come into the area to settle. It includes children who have known no other home. Meanwhile, some of the Palestinians trying to dislocate the settlers where born after the land was settled by the Israelis. It's not a clear cut issue of one person having claim while the other does not. As for you boat claim, huh? If you're claiming that the being born on a sinking boat is the equivalent for being born in the settled areas, you're displaying a simplicity I rarely see from you. Apparently, the folks in the settled areas don't see the boat as sinking, only under attack. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends!
metadigital Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 It seems pretty fragile to me. I'm all for a demiliterised zone, so that no-one can live there (without surrendering all weapons). OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Cantousent Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 Well, on the flipside, you're right in saying that it is undoubtedly in the child's best interest to remove them from a life-threatening situation. I mean, whether the boat is sinking or under atttack, it's not exactly like standing on dry land. Anyhow, it's such an ugly situation that even most Americans give it a lot of attention. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends!
Kaftan Barlast Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 what about Jewish children born in the settled areas? children who had no control over where they were born? The settled areas provide homes for the children born there. They have just as much right to those homes as anyone. children who have known no other home. I guess you just cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, you know? Especially if its am omelette of peace, the most important and overall tastiest of them all. " DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "
213374U Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 I guess you just cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, you know? Especially if its am omelette of peace, the most important and overall tastiest of them all. " Heh. Justifying nasty stuff "in the name of peace" is not a very solid way of supporting your opinion, as the proponents of the opposite thesis can do it too, with the same ease. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Laozi Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 Kids having to move really isn't all that big a deal, alot of kids have to move around whn they're young, it usually doesn't scare them too much People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair.
Kaftan Barlast Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 Hey! Im not "supporting onions" here! Im a regular heterosexual just like the rest of us.. I dont do that sort of stuff.. really ..except once a month on thursdays.. ...and twice on christmas eve.. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "
213374U Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 :ph34r: - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Kaftan Barlast Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 THIS LAND IS OUR LAND Chrous: This land is our land, this land is our land From the west bank, to the Golan high lands From the Sinai desert, to the Haifa waters This land was made for you and me As I was walking a ribbon of highway I saw above me an endless skyway I saw below me a golden valley This land was made for you and me Chorus I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts And all around me a voice was sounding This land was made for you and me Chorus As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there And that sign said - no Palestinians passin' But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin! Now that side was made for us! Chorus In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the media Near the Knesset - I see my people And some are grumblin' and some are wonderin' If this land's still made for us (Ok, so I stole the idea from 'The Daily Show', but I did my own variant) DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "
213374U Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 Man, what is Authority going to say when he sees you spamming this thread? :D - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Calax Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 I guess ender want's America to become a colony of England again. Ender seems to think that the isralis have a much better claim to the land than any arab does, simply because they were (biblicly) there first, This would give England dominion over america. But it should be noted that in England's eyes the American Milita were a bunch of terrorists at the time. I can't speak for the English but as soon as we won we were reffering to the Milita as a bunch of freedom fighters. I'm guessing that as soon as the palastinians are able to run themselves they will start calling themselves Freedom fighters because thats what they are fighting for. It should be pointed out that I'm not condoning the murder of civilians but I think that if you looked closly at any war you would see more than one instance of civilians getting caught in the cross fire. Like when in WW2 the Americans and British would go after a industrial complex next to a school knowing full well, that because their equipment wasn't made for pinpoint accuracy, that at least one or two bombs would accidently hit the school killing several children. We like to cover up the "collateral damage" from a war because we don't like to see the worst in ourselves but it's still there. PS: Reviled I'm sorry about reffering to the Britons as English and their land as England but that's what I was taught in school And on a different note, the first bomb dropped on Berlin by the allies killed the one and only elephant in the Berlin Zoo. (don't know why I decided to add that but I did) :ph34r: Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.
213374U Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 I guess ender want's America to become a colony of England again. Ender seems to think that the isralis have a much better claim to the land than any arab does, simply because they were (biblicly) there first, This would give England dominion over america. Huh? How is God giving Gaza to the jews similar in any way to France, Spain, and England conquering America? - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
LoneWolf16 Posted August 20, 2005 Posted August 20, 2005 God dislikes brown people? I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast
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