Speculation on the Jedi Masters

[DAWUSS]

Do you think the Jedi Masters are as much the enemy as the Sith? From the "Farewell to Arms" incident where the Exile becomes just that to where he or she (I'll use she for the remainder of this post) brings the "Big 3" back to Dantooine at the Rebuilt Jedi Enclave, they've seemed to be as much as the enemy. They don't want her around because she's a "wound in the Force" and she "might lead the Sith to them"; the Sith don't want her around because she's a Jedi, and I almost seem to receive the impression that the Jedi Masters are as much the enemy as they are. An argument could be made for the one who kinda feels sorry for her afterwards (I can't recall her name atm [Lonna Vash? or it might've been Kavar. Like I said ICR]).

 

On Dantooine, would things have changed if Vash and Atris had been present as well? Who knows, but I doubt it. The Big 3 would still have claimed she was a wound in the Force, the one who felt sorry for her would've stuck by her side now, and Atris, well, she would probably become the wildcard factor and eventually side with the Big 3.

 

Could it be that the Jedi Masters fell to the Dark Side on Dantooine and not realized it? Had they been blinded by it to not realize what she did by claiming responsibility for her actions on Malachor V, admitting she could walk away from the Force only to return to it as a stronger individual, and reunite them in an effort to stop the Sith, something none of the 5 could say they were able to do? They were the ones who stood from afar watching the Jedi and Mandalorians slay the heck outta each other on Malachor V. As the visions of Atton and company mentioned: "Apathy is death". Perhaps those 3 words carry the most powerful message throughout the entire event from the start of the JCW to the reunion on Dantooine.

 

If they did fall to the Dark Side, then the next question would be "When did they fall?" I almost want to say the Big 3 fell at the Rebuilt Jedi Enclave, where perhaps Sion, Nihilus, or (though I doubt it) Kreia touched them in some way.

 

Regarding how her partners did everything she did and told them to do without question... It was something I didn't think of until they mentioned it at the end. At Peragus, they all simply wanted to get off that newly-formed wasteland. On Telos, we see that Kreia forces Atton to do so (at first at least [i think in the end it was more out of love, something I don't think Kreia predicted]), while Bao-Dur follows a general like any other soldier. Visas is forced by Nihilus to do so. Mandalore does so under his own free will, along with the Disciple, Mira and the others. (We'll leave the droids out of this because they're programmed to be like that [and weren't who the Jedi Masters were talking about]). Again, would things have changed if they all had joined the Exile in her meeting with the Jedi Masters on Dantooine? I think it would have though the outcome would have still been the same (like HK-47 wanting to blast the Jedi Masters to pieces using his highly modified blaster rifle, and each of her friends saying they chose to follow her by their own free will).

[Master_Vrook]

Personally, I think the big 3 should have kept the Exile around as his ability to make connections to people through the force would be a great help and serve the lightside of the force. The fact that the sith can track him means nothing when the Exile brings the fight to the Sith actively while at the same time using his connection to gather many planets to his side, almost like a never ending battle meditation that will work to lead valiant followers to the light and gather the whole galaxy up in arms against the Sith.

[GhostofAnakin]

The only thing I was a bit disappointed about was the fact they died regardless if you choose DS or LS.

 

It would have been better if you were LS if they survived Kreia's attack, and when you came to, they gave you a piece of advice that would enable you to defeat Kreia (whatever it may be).

[Dark Moth]

Also, K2 isn't a good representation of what the Jedi Masters are normally like. They were a lot more likeable in K1, except for Vrook. The ones in K2, to be blunt, were a bunch of dumbasses (and traitors, to boot).

[Master_Vrook]

Vrook was more of strict father in one who only wants what is best from you, in two he is a bit of an ass and goes off at you because you ruined his plan to get captured by the Mercenaries on purpose. He should have talked it over with Adare first instead of making her worry and sending you over to rescue him.

[DAWUSS]

The only thing I was a bit disappointed about was the fact they died regardless if you choose DS or LS.

 

It would have been better if you were LS if they survived Kreia's attack, and when you came to, they gave you a piece of advice that would enable you to defeat Kreia (whatever it may be).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yeah, seeing them die in the Enclave made it seem like you couldn't win either way you went as the Jedi died out.

 

 

 

 

Personally, I think the big 3 should have kept the Exile around as his ability to make connections to people through the force would be a great help and serve the lightside of the force. The fact that the sith can track him means nothing when the Exile brings the fight to the Sith actively while at the same time using his connection to gather many planets to his side, almost like a never ending battle meditation that will work to lead valiant followers to the light and gather the whole galaxy up in arms against the Sith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think Vrook's kind of the same way, since he does the majority of the talking in the Rebuilt Jedi Enclave, while Kavar and Ell just stand there in total agreement, giving the Exile her fate...

[GhostofAnakin]

Also, K2 isn't a good representation of what the Jedi Masters are normally like.  They were a lot more likeable in K1, except for Vrook.    The ones in K2, to be blunt, were a bunch of dumbasses (and traitors, to boot).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A lot more likeable? Are you talking about the same "likeable" Jedi Masters who stole your mind and identity, stripping you of every memory that you had, all because they wanted to achieve their own goals?

[Jediphile]

Actually, I rather like the masters, even if their treatment of the Exile is totally unfair.

 

Vrook is doubtlessly the most annoying - totally stubborn and obstinate and completely incapable of keeping an open mind in any way. I like him for being a grumpy old git, whom I can love to hate

 

Kavar is okay. He's very direct and a good strategist, which are good qualities. Unfortunately his directness works rather a lot against the Exile, as he jumps to conclusions at the end of it all. A shame, really...

 

I also like Zez-Kai Ell. He is the only one to say that maybe the masters were wrong. When you meet him on Nar Shaddaa, he laments the fact that they sent you into exile rather than to try and find out what happened to you. Now that was exactly the right way to put it - I was jumping my chair that I could tell the masters this during sequence, where I was exiled. Too bad that Zez-Kai Ell forgot all about this when he went back to Dantooine

 

Vash showed compassion on your part and even stood up to Atris, when she just wanted to punish you during the trial. Too bad she was killed off by the unfinished plot. Then again, it might be better than having her killed off by Kreia...

 

And Atris? The less said the better... " :D

[julianw]

I also like Zez-Kai Ell. He is the only one to say that maybe the masters were wrong. ...... Too bad that Zez-Kai Ell forgot all about this when he went back to Dantooine

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was very confused by that, too.

 

I guess blame it on LA's decision to rush the game. Since there is no time to develop an interesting plot about Zez-Kai Ell (I am trusting Jediphile on the spelling.), let's just kill him along with the other Masters.

[Krookie]

I hated that part of the game, when Kriea kills them and all. I felt like I had just put in 20+ hours in a game to watch them be killed in 4 seconds. <_<

[Master_Vrook]

Many people are not totally sure there dead. I didn't buy that they were dead the first time I saw it happen. It was just a newbish assumption because of the fact their clothes were still flowing in the wind and I didn't get remains :"> , but now I think it might be because she just wanted them to be stripped of the force, since it's more in Kreia's character to want to make people see the truth and abolish ignorance then to mindlessly destroy. Notice all the times you take "revenge" on her old enemies your not just killing them, you debate them first and fight away their dogmas with Kreia's teachings. All she really ever wanted is for her philosophies to be understood by both the Jedi and Sith religions.

 

I think she is more or less forcing them to experience life without the force by making them give it up. It seems that Jedi in the past used the force just to retain normal bodily functions and lose almost all control of things like balance once it's gone. Kreia mentions they can hardly wield a weapon without using the force to guide them. The three of them probably slipped into some kind of coma from shock, experiencing all that the Exile went through when he shrugged of the Force. If they were to come back from such a state they would be very powerful and the Traya set out to prove one can live without the force and since she was successful, I think there is a chance they can come back.

[Kashrlyyk]

It seems that Jedi in the past used the force just to retain normal bodily functions and lose almost all control of things like balance once it's gone.

 

I think that this is one of the weakest things in the story!

 

Obsidian defined several things in order to make the story work:

1) The force is killable

2) You can live without the force

3) Jedis are nothing without the force

 

I can not agree to one of this definitions and if you can

[dufflover]

I also think it was bad to have the Masters die either way, even as LS, so LS ending not so LS after all. I was expecting some sort of Jedi vs Sith showdown too (and in typical fashion they get held up and u go to the final fight solo).

 

I do have the perception that K2 made them too much like enemies.

[CoM_Solaufein]

I hated that part of the game, when Kriea kills them and all. I felt like I had just put in 20+ hours in a game to watch them be killed in 4 seconds. <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She made it look easy. Now if you were a DSer it would have taken your character far longer to defeat them.

[Calax]

I'm agreeing with everyone else in saying I hate how no matter what you do the Masters die. I mean you spend several hours trying to find these guy's to have them die right in front of you like nobodys business! Makes you wonder about the quality of a Jedi master.

[Lord Kil]

The council's reaction shows an irrational fear, which is very un-jedilike. On Dantooine I save the Administrator in front of Vrook. I help Kavar (an "old friend") save the queen on Ondaron. The bald one with the funky name watches me save the refugees on Nar Shadaar. So it should be obvious by this point that I'm a force for good.

 

Instead of uniting with me to fight the Sith though, these guys turn on me instead. They don't even have the backbone to discuss the decision with me before they start draining me. There are true Jedi left in the galaxy, but they are not in that temple. They are all in a smuggler's vessel called the Ebon Hawke. :D

[DAWUSS]

I honestly think they were somehow tainted by the Dark Side by the time they were brought together in the Jedi Enclave

[master_pendrak]

the 3 masters on dantooine never lost their arrogance from when they punished the Exile by banishing him from the Order years ago. They cannot understand what happened to him during the war, so they fear it. The only way they see to solve the problem is to cut his force connection or kill him.

 

So infact to the Exile the Jedi and the Sith are no better or worse than each other, the Jedi wish to harm him, the Sith wish to harm him. He is feared and hated from both sides of the force you could say.

 

I was a LSM and helped Kavar purely because he out of the 3 Masters seemed to want me back from Exile. I let Zez-Kai Ell live because he too was thankful for my return. Vrook was the usual scorning me for my actions, but i let the old fool live purely because i didnt have an option to kill him. But in the end they all tried to kill me and Kreia saved the day. I think for gameplay purposes you are given the choice of being a light side Jedi or darkside Sith so a player can have a sense of feeling within the storyline.

 

But in reality i think Exile is meant to be neutral like Kreia, because he isnt a Jedi and he isnt a Sith. His years in Exile produce a neutrality within him and thats why the 3 Jedi Masters on Dantooine dont ask the Exile to join them fight the Sith. Instead they try to damage or kill the only weapon that could save them, which causes them to be killed anyway by Kreia.

[Dark Moth]

Also, K2 isn't a good representation of what the Jedi Masters are normally like.  They were a lot more likeable in K1, except for Vrook.    The ones in K2, to be blunt, were a bunch of dumbasses (and traitors, to boot).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A lot more likeable? Are you talking about the same "likeable" Jedi Masters who stole your mind and identity, stripping you of every memory that you had, all because they wanted to achieve their own goals?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Achieve their own goals? You mean saving the galaxy and countless lives from a monster, right? I guess if you call that 'their own goals', yes. Revan was a monster at the time of his betrayal, no matter how you look at it. Malak was a monster. Both had caused horrible damage to the Republic. Revan, because he wanted to fight the 'true Sith' and Malak just because he wanted to see things blow up.

 

The Jedi had to do something to save themselves and defeat the Sith. It was war, for crying out loud. And what else could they have done? Besides, it was Malak's betrayal that damaged Revan's mind in the first place. You have to listen to what Bastila says. On the Rakatan temple, she also explains how you have a new identiy, but still kept all the essence of who you were before your betrayal and memory wipe.

 

What would you have done? What else could they have done? Nothing. And the ones in K1 were a whole lot more likeable (even Vrook wasn't as annoying, but he was still a schutta), and a whole lot more wise, too. The ones in K2 were the bottom of the barrel.

[DAWUSS]

And what would they have done if they had succeeded in stripping the Exile once again? It would have been back to "Well we need to think about this, we need to meditate on this and not act on such impulse..." while the Sith take planet after planet.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if the Big 3 came across Revan, they would consider Revan to be another Jedi exile because he did the same thing the Exile did, go to war against the Council, only he never came back to take responsibility for his actions like the Exile did. Instead, Revan went to the land of nowhere to go hunt down the "true Sith", ditching T3, Bastila, and the Ebon Hawk.

[Dark Moth]

I'm not referring to the ones in K2, am I? I'm talking about the ones in K1. The three of them (Vrook, Kavar, Zez-kai ell) were idiots. Atris was a b1tch and Vash got killed. The wiser ones: Vandar, Dorak, Zhar, were all killed. Actually, the ones in K2 didn't even seem that bad until the ending scene on Dantooine. There that's where they really sunk to a new low. But if the Jedi Masters were always as idiotic as K2 made them seem, the Jedi order would not have survived.

 

Their actions in K1 were justified, their actions in K2 were not. End of story.

Edited August 7, 2005 by Mothman

[Master_Vrook]

Well because Revan met the Mandos in battle, the atrocity of Malachor created an echo of the force that made all those not strong enough to renounce the force entirely die. It really wasn't a good thing to goad the Mandalorians into a fight because that's exactly what they wanted to achieve by picking on those outer rim systems. Because of Malachor the Exile became a wound in the Force that allowed the Sith to strike at the Jedi through the force itself.

[master_pendrak]

i'll be honest when i say i dont truly understand the "your an echo in the force" thing but i have the feeling it means...

 

when something dies it leaves an echo which slowly disappears and is replaced. IE when 1 person dies another is born somewhere and fills the gap. But the Exile should have died but cut his force connection in time leaving an echo that has never healed because while he was dead in the force he was alive physically. So if thats correct then technically the Exile doesnt have his "old" force connection because an echo is there instead. So he draws upon the force from other sources.

 

Thats why the Jedi found him a threat, although i feel they never truly understood him and what had happened. But in K1 the Jedi raped the mind of Revan in desperation just as they were going to strip Exile of the force completly or kill him in K2. In K1&2 the Jedi acted in desperation, arrogance and fear because each time we meet them something big is going on which involves them at the heart of it.

[Jediphile]

The Jedi had to do something to save themselves and defeat the Sith.  It was war, for crying out loud.  And what else could they have done?  Besides, it was Malak's betrayal that damaged Revan's mind in the first place.  You have to listen to what Bastila says.  On the Rakatan temple, she also explains how you have a new identiy, but still kept all the essence of who you were before your betrayal and memory wipe. 

 

What would you have done?  What else could they have done?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not so much that they did it, but rather the fact that they won't accept responsibility for being just as devious and manipulative as they accuse the Sith of being.

 

Granted, Revan *was* a monster at the time. So there are extenuating circumstances for what they did.

 

But it is the pillar of hypocrisy for the jedi to argue that it was okay for them to do it simply on a basis of necessity, when it wasn't okay for Revan and Malak to fight the Mandalorians to save millions of lives.

 

When the revelation comes in K1, I always tell Bastila that she and the jedi are no better than the Sith, because that is true - it's one thing that they were forced into this action, but when they then try to deny responsibility for it, it makes them not only hypocritical but also ignorent of the very danger from the dark side that they thereby expose themselves to even as they condemn Revan and Malak for making themselves vulnerable to it when they choose to go to war.

 

If that isn't jedi hypocrisy, then I don't know what is. It the worst case of "holier than thou" attitude yet seen in Star Wars IMHO.

[Dark Moth]

No, the Jedi acted purely out of desperation in K1. They had no other choice. It was in K2 where they acted out of fear and arrogance. (see my above post) And Revan going to war actually hurt the Republic in the long one, for it soon sparked the Jedi civil war and created the wound in the force at Malachor V. In a sense, the Jedi were right. And Bastila didn't 'use' you because she wanted to. She had to. She had a duty to do, and she did it. And she also hated herself for it as well (she tells you later on).

 

Revan going to war in the Mandalorian wars might have actually killed off more lives than saved them.

 

EDIT: fixed a little grammatical error above.

Edited August 7, 2005 by Mothman