"The Academy" conundrum

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

Didn't they do that in Fable and wasn't Fable a POS game?

[alanschu]

I've heard that Fable was more of an underachieving game...in that it was too ambitious of a project.

 

 

Most people that I know that have played it have enjoyed it. And I'll likely pick it up once it comes out on PC.

[Llyranor]

From Sharpei_Diem in RP's RPGcodex thread:

've always been fond of character creation processes, but one thing I've found with them is they lend themselves to stat-watching as opposed to role playing and take away from the game somewhat. At the very first instant, the player is already having to make guesses about the game. In some cases, like many D&D based systems, they're forced to make decisions that might not even be available in the game (I'm going to specialize in katana, hope there's some in the game...) Personally, I think that kind of thinking is one of the reasons this genre is stagnant.

I was thinking this had some merit, and points out why people consider character creation is an 'OOC experience'.

 

What if, upon starting the game, there would be no character creation screen, no 'OOC experience'. You'd start off in whatever scenario, in full-fledged "roleplaying mode". As situations are presented to you, you get the choice in how to go about them, how to solve them. If the PC has a penchant to talk his way out of things, or just likes to hide and sneak around, is it not because the character (who already exists prior to the game actually starts, after all) is more proficient in said methods of conflict resolution? If the player opts to have the PC solve each of the problems in vastly different methods, is it not because the player expects the PC to be more of a generalist rather than a specialist? You'd be effectively roleplaying. No stat-assigning required, it'd all be done behind the scenes. There is no 'learning' process - the PC does not become good at these skills because s/he uses them in the game during a 'tutorial', s/he uses them because s/he already found him/herself good at them before the game ever started.

[Gromnir]

"Now, what if such a 'tutorial' was a full-blown scenario? What if character creation took 5 hrs, for example? How much 'character creation' are players willing to go through before actually tackling the 'real game'? I'm sure many RPG players are fans of character creation, but is there such a thing as too much of it - regardless of how it's being fleshed out?"

 

have been asking for this kinda thing since bg2 were in development... and we has gotten almost 0 developer response, regardless of the mechanic being suggested to implement, and in spite of the fact that whenever the notion has been suggested, there has always been at least some support for the idea.

 

other than race and gender, you can make virtually every aspect of character generation part of the playable game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[GhostofAnakin]

have been asking for this kinda thing since bg2 were in development... and we has gotten almost 0 developer response, regardless of the mechanic being suggested to implement, and in spite of the fact that whenever the notion has been suggested, there has always been at least some support for the idea.

 

other than race and gender, you can make virtually every aspect of character generation part of the playable game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Would you want that in place of the tutorial? Or as part of the actual story?

 

If it's the former, then I wouldn't mind as much. If it's the latter, then it had better make sense in context of the story.

[Calax]

Perhaps if the tutorial was optional it might work. But then the programmers wouldn't make it because they hate to do somthing people won't see a billion times.

[Gromnir]

"Would you want that in place of the tutorial? Or as part of the actual story?"

 

why need the two be separate... and we not see why there would be any problem in making the genesis portion o' the game fit into larger story. most heroic stories spend considerable time talking 'bout the origins of "Chesty McVargas, Knight Templar" or whoever you got as the protagonist.

 

this were one of the few suggestions we made on the old board that tiffin thought were a good one

[Guest Fishboot]

More to the point of this thread, what exactly about character creation (and I mean in general - the above is just one possible example) do you really like? What features thrill you, which ones wouldn't you like to see? I ask this in terms of already existing games, possibly upcoming ones, or hypothetical/ideal games.

 

What does well-executed character creation mean to you? I appreciate any feedback.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Edit - in retrospect my below response is almost entirely what I think about tutorials, not about character creation. Sorry for using this as a jumping off point rahter than answering the question. "

 

I don't think there is a Zoroastrian ideal of character creation/tutorials - it's variable depending on the license, the tone of the game, and what service the story needs. For example, in Deus Ex the tutorial has a certain disconnect from the game - you do it before you actually create the specifics of your character and it essentially teaches you the controls and the style of the game. When the actual game begins there is a sense of disconnect from the tutorial - it might have happened months ago, weeks ago, or whatever. This ties into the concept that the game wants to put across your character is not a neophyte but rather an elite trainee (also boltered by your first mission: Deal with a couple scores of terrorists). "Character creation" itself is pretty light in Deus Ex, so I won't get into that one.

 

For another example, you've got Vampire: Bloodlines. The tutorial in that is essentially you meeting a character (one of the game's best) who mentors you through a few scenes. In this case there is no disconnect at all between the tutorial and the game itself - they dovetail. It's a good tutorial as well, and serves the story, which in this case casts you as a true neophyte, completely ignorant of what's going on and able to get the fundamentals of the White Wolf style of vampirism as well as learn the game controls. As far as character creation you can either do the old Ultima style "answer questions to generate your character" (which, while passable, is fairly creaky at determining what you'd actually like to play) or standard "assign the points" which lets you design exactly the character you'd like.

 

Compare those with KoTOR2's tutorial - The Exile is no trainee at all, and in fact already has an elaborate backstory that you don't know and any tutorial involving him or her would be strained - this person is supposed to be an ex-general, not a know-nothing. So instead the tutorial is shifted to a different character yet the tutorial's story is tied into the main storyline deeply, at least as backstory. Although in retrospect it might have been a good idea to pound the player with some exposition to start out with to provide some disambiguation for the "Does this character have amnesia?" question that probably went through most people's heads when playing through Peragus.

 

All three of these are skippable tutorials, as they should be to encourage enjoyable replays.

 

Your concept of "The way you solve problems in the tutorial generates your character" is a great idea - I can see how well that would have worked for a Deus Ex type shooter/sneaker hybrid. A lot of people compain when starting Deus Ex about how difficult it is to play as a shooter to being with - if those people had blasted away at guards in the tutorial instead of being sneaky and been assigned the skills to make that a useful playstyle the game might have clicked for them right off, or vice versa for a sneaker. Has it been done before?

[Cantousent]

The tutorial for KotOR 2 was extremely well done. Not only did it serve the back-story, it introduced the player to one of the playable droids, allowed the player to familiarize himself with the controls, gave a good account of the basic areas of the ship, and fit nicely into the first fully playable area. Moreover, the pace and tone of the tutorial was perfect for the story. KotOR 2, in my mind, is at its best in tense areas with simple, elegant flavor text and mysterious circumstances. The tutorial exceeded other areas of the game in this regard.

 

The tutorial for KotOR 2 was much better than the tutorial for KotOR. That might be because the backstory was better for KotOR 2 than it was for KotOR, but it is one area in which the sequel outshone the original.

[GhostofAnakin]

The tutorial for KotOR 2 was extremely well done.  Not only did it serve the back-story, it introduced the player to one of the playable droids, allowed the player to familiarize himself with the controls, gave a good account of the basic areas of the ship, and fit nicely into the first fully playable area.  Moreover, the pace and tone of the tutorial was perfect for the story.  KotOR 2, in my mind, is at its best in tense areas with simple, elegant flavor text and mysterious circumstances.  The tutorial exceeded other areas of the game in this regard.

 

The tutorial for KotOR 2 was much better than the tutorial for KotOR.  That might be because the backstory was better for KotOR 2 than it was for KotOR, but it is one area in which the sequel outshone the original.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not to mention the best part of it: you had the option to SKIP it if you wanted to. "

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

Indeed but I would rather have it separate from the game.

[alanschu]

I prefer tutorials thare are actually related to the game in some way. Makes them more interesting.

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

Interesting to go through them every single damn time you play a new game? I think not. Also they always seem to be "out of character." When I start the game I want to be in character.

[alanschu]

Which is why I also think tutorials should be skippable.

 

 

A tutorial that is 'Push X, push Y, blah" is less interesting though.

[Laozi]

The tutorial for KotOR 2 was extremely well done.  Not only did it serve the back-story, it introduced the player to one of the playable droids, allowed the player to familiarize himself with the controls, gave a good account of the basic areas of the ship, and fit nicely into the first fully playable area.  Moreover, the pace and tone of the tutorial was perfect for the story.  KotOR 2, in my mind, is at its best in tense areas with simple, elegant flavor text and mysterious circumstances.  The tutorial exceeded other areas of the game in this regard.

 

The tutorial for KotOR 2 was much better than the tutorial for KotOR.  That might be because the backstory was better for KotOR 2 than it was for KotOR, but it is one area in which the sequel outshone the original.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ya and it was one of the few things that was finished on release

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Interesting thread, and sounds like a nice character creation process.

 

Thanks.

 

I'll looking forward to playing your NWN2 mod (which, btw, does not have a FPS view, though I'm sure you could emulate it via making the PC cutscene_invisible).

 

I'm looking forward to starting work on the module, but it's anybody's guess when me and Volourn will ever start, let alone finish making it. Add to it that I suck at coding and it gets tricky. I'm currently tasked with just expanding on the story outline I presented to him, coming up with the gameworld and its inhabitants, locales, etc. I could always whip Vol into place and have him be the code monkey, but we'll be looking out for community content that might help us.

 

The reason I mentioned a first person view on that post is because this was made long before I ever entertained the notion of working with NWN2's editor. It was meant to be a tutorial of sorts for a full game, possibly even a firstperson shooter in the vein of Deus Ex or Vampire, or even a console RPG. Moving it into Aurora toolset territory might limit or complicate some of the things I planned.

 

Some people have been telling me I can do pretty much what I envisioned with the Aurora toolset in the first NWN, so it may still be all good in the sequel's improved version.

 

about replayability

 

I think I see where my mistake was. Replayability in a long and arduous character creation process can be a chore. Perhaps I was putting too much emphasis in it, then. What if, you were given relatively free reign to roleplay a character that would have ended up in a such situation, and that the character creation process was a secondary effect? The focus would thus be in the character vanquishing obstacles in such a setting, much like in any other setting, rather than a direct focus on 'making' a character. Much like learning is just a toxic side-effect from going to school

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When I was pointed out the issues with replayability, I looked at my concept and its similarity to the Elder Scrolls and pretty much saw that equally similar elements could be added. Playing trough the scenario itself is good and can be immersive during the first playtroughs, but afterwards it will likely become a chore, though I suppose it depends on the actual lenght of the tutorial. I found NWN's inital scenario to be boring after a couple of playtroughs, especially because you had to go trough the same motions. Skipping it would be an option.

 

One thing I like about this kind of scenario is that it can be adapted to character classes. A character can go trough the same motions, but depending on class it can vary, litte or considerably. That's an idea I've been tinkering with as well, a situation where depening on what class the PC is, he'll have different obstacles (ie, Rogues might need to steal or move steathily, Paladins may need to purge evil, etc... The kicker is coming up with multiclassed characters, but that's a discussion for some other day). This could also be used for initial scenarios, where all character classes may go trough the 'academy syndrome' but in different ways. I assume this would lessen the boredom and repetition of it.

 

In any case, I like your idea.

 

 

Note: not sure I actually answered what you wanted me to answer... I haven't had a good night's sleep in a week and find myself losing focus in conversations. Sorry.

[metadigital]

Lots of comments I want to address, and

[Llyranor]

I think the trick would be not to make it feel like 'Academy syndrome'. Making it as thrilling/compelling as the rest of the game, making the player FEEL like s/he is in the 'full game' already, but with the character creation process as a SIDE-effect of the scenario. It would need to be made both un-tutorial-like, and un-OOC, as well as conducive to replayability.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

The appeal of this process is that it feels like the module has begun in earnest, because one is battling and doing stuff that counts, but it is a safe environment, so that one can fail and still be okay. It allows for the safe "play-fighting" of tiger cubs without feeling contrived. It also builds empathy with the PC, and provides a neat way to drop in some back story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I always liked systems where failure does not necessarily mean a scenario, or the game itself are over. Failure doesn't need to be the end of everything, and may at times be a requirement to pursue some other path. In that example, it would be great to know that the Paladin may retry the test, that failing it isn't the end (though he should still suffer some slight penalites to failure, ie, geting worse items on a retry that he would on a first time).

[Diogo Ribeiro]

but with the character creation process as a SIDE-effect of the scenario. It would need to be made both un-tutorial-like, and un-OOC, as well as conducive to replayability.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

YES

[Llyranor]

I'd be interested to know a bit more about your project, how far you are in it, etc. Haha, you're finally officially teaming up with Magical Volo, eh? Magical Volo as main coder, R00FLES. That being said, LilacSoul's script generator is a boon. Good thing I have some skilled programmers to abuse, though.

[EnderAndrew]

Ultima VI offered up a new interface and system. It may have been the first mouse-driven RPG I ever saw. The game threw you directly into the fire. The game opened with combat, and it really pissed players off.

 

Some level of tutorial can be nice.

[metadigital]

The appeal of this process is that it feels like the module has begun in earnest, because one is battling and doing stuff that counts, but it is a safe environment, so that one can fail and still be okay. It allows for the safe "play-fighting" of tiger cubs without feeling contrived. It also builds empathy with the PC, and provides a neat way to drop in some back story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I always liked systems where failure does not necessarily mean a scenario, or the game itself are over. Failure doesn't need to be the end of everything, and may at times be a requirement to pursue some other path. In that example, it would be great to know that the Paladin may retry the test, that failing it isn't the end (though he should still suffer some slight penalites to failure, ie, geting worse items on a retry that he would on a first time).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To go one step further:

mistakes say more about people than success; the mistakes we have made define us more than our triumphs, as it is these lessons that we have to overcome to reach the success.

 

So failure is a good way to test a new character: where they fail is the limit that helps define the PC.

 

The only problem with taking this too far is that people enjoy role playing different characters to themselves

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I'd be interested to know a bit more about your project, how far you are in it, etc. Haha, you're finally officially teaming up with Magical Volo, eh? Magical Volo as main coder, R00FLES. That being said, LilacSoul's script generator is a boon. Good thing I have some skilled programmers to abuse, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is no spoon... Yet. That is to say, the basic goal which we have set up - and I think Volourn would agree here - is that we will do our best in creating a module which we like. For the record, my admitedly ambitious plan is to combine the uniqueness of Torment's gameworld, and Arcanum's take on technology. And a fair bit of their storytelling and roleplaying.

 

I could go on about the plans we have and the ideas I've been developing but we would be discussing just that: ideas. I wouldn't mind presenting them but they are still at their infancy, and if there's one thing I would like to avoid is to hype this before development has even begun (not that I'd hype it after it's begun, though).

 

Then again, with Volourn on board that might be hard - his name alone will propel this module's fame into great heights.

[Llyranor]

"Failure" could teach you lessons that "success" would not. Effectively, this could mean you would learn different "abilities".

 

This is in a way how I'm implementing the journal system. It just doesn't automatically get updated. After a mission/quest, the PC goes to write down what has occured in the journal. It wouldn't just be an objective process ("Today I killed Mr. Volo!"), s/he'd go about reminiscing about what s/he would have learned from that mission, what to retain for future, self-doubts, etc. This might affect XP and such - if you haven't learn anything from the events that came to pass, it should make senses that you get less XP. One could learn different lessons from the same event, depending on perspective. This might eventually affect the ending, but that's another story.

 

Case in point, rewarding failure when appropriate = good. It's much better than simply making the player reload because s/he didn't get what s/he wanted.