mkreku Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 Its also worth mentioning that the "hawks" did not give any time for other, alternative means to be planned before using force in a military invasion. It could have been done differently, but with the worlds only remaining superpower hellbent on war at any cost, it was the only outcome. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, the UN did send weapon inspectors (Hans Blix was one of them) to check if Iraq indeed had 'WEAPONZ 0F MASS DESTRUXTION' but they only got a few months to search an entire nation (and Iraq isn't small). When they couldn't find any, the american government resided to calling Hans and his team liars and (basically) wimps. About a year after invading, the US government admitted that they too never found any WMD's. Nice, huh? Apparently they're STILL searching: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/12/wmd.search/ "Despite intensive searches, no banned Iraqi weapons were found after the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime." Uh.. anyhow.. Happy Birthday to the non-arrogant and non-ignorant part of the american population! Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!
213374U Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 About a year after invading, the US government admitted that they too never found any WMD's. Nice, huh? They are still looking... - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
metadigital Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 yeah, they say "let them be free!" then do nothing about it. that's pretty hypocritical, mkreku... even for you. brutally murdering your citizens is NOT a differing ideology. it is morally repugnant for ANYBODY to allow. enslaving women is NOT a differing ideology, mkreku, it is morally repugnant. you may think such things are OK because "well, it's not my country doing the enslavement" (yeah, i read that bit... they only took women... ), but in the end, we're one world and we need to keep in mind that in this world, some rights are given at birth, no matter where you were born. as such, freedom comes with a cost. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The problem is the "peculiar" method of determining whom is to be the beneficiaries of this US munificence. What about North Korea, Zimbabwe, most of Africa, bits of Asia, some former USSR countries that have also fallen to dictatorship, etc. Of course, Rome wasn't built in a day. The gung-ho charge by Bush Jr into the second Gulf War makes the proferred rationale seem purely expedient, and not indicative of a meaningful methodology for helping the peoples of the world to betterment, through empowerment. Especially after the Administration's initial attempts to link al-Qa'ida with Saddam Hussein. That, and the fact that the US has a reputation (deserved or not) of always taking the shortest route to an objective, even if that route is the most costly (in terms of lives or whatever). It's a shame, really, because the US is really every thinking person's great hope. I will leave you with one thought, however, Liberia has the US constituion, and it hasn't done that country any good, so far. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
metadigital Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 Actually, the UN did send weapon inspectors (Hans Blix was one of them) to check if Iraq indeed had 'WEAPONZ 0F MASS DESTRUXTION' but they only got a few months to search an entire nation (and Iraq isn't small). When they couldn't find any, the american government resided to calling Hans and his team liars and (basically) wimps.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, it's worse than that. Hans Blix is on record (I've seen the interview, nice that these Germans speak English so well ) confirming that he and his team were using the coalition intelligence to look for the WMD, too. So you can understand why the US administration was getting antsy when he wasn't finding anything ... OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Volourn Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 "Heck Canada kicked our butt once!" No, we didn't. Don't ;et Kanadians brainwahs you. All that happened that some nilly willis snuck into Washinginton and burned the WH. Kanada never beat the US at an actual war. What a stupid, apthetic arrogant myth propagated by very hateful beings known as FALSE Kanadians. And, oh, by the way, may the US be blessed as one of the most free and bestest countries in the world. Anyone who bashes the US for its errors then ignores the errors in other countries are laughable and pathetic creatures. The US is not perfect. No country is. The point is Kanada is probably the luckiest nation in the world to have a country as it's only actual neighbour. Good stuff. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Calax Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 i find our election system horribly broken (yes i'm an american psudorichboy) How could sombody be elected with only 49% of the vote? and why don't they change it to a popular vote? because quite simply the smaller (population wise) states are scared of loosing their power to decide things in the elections. Also america did lose a war and just calling it a military action is increadibly stupid. that is the reason that congress drafted and passed the War Powers Act, you can't deploy troops overseas for more than 100 days without a decleration of war. Only problem is that the congress are scared to use it, and right now they are simply bushes lapdogs. Technically we could impeach him for a breech of the war powers act, and for going on a "freedom fight" for false reasons. I can't believe we let bush get away with saying "we are going to bring freedom, christianity and disneyland to iraq". not highly publisized but it's still there :ph34r:. By the way moth, 11x and you others, how does it feel to be the first members of the United Empire of america? Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.
11XHooah Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 Its also worth mentioning that the "hawks" did not give any time for other, alternative means to be planned before using force in a military invasion. It could have been done differently, but with the worlds only remaining superpower hellbent on war at any cost, it was the only outcome. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, the UN did send weapon inspectors (Hans Blix was one of them) to check if Iraq indeed had 'WEAPONZ 0F MASS DESTRUXTION' but they only got a few months to search an entire nation (and Iraq isn't small). When they couldn't find any, the american government resided to calling Hans and his team liars and (basically) wimps. About a year after invading, the US government admitted that they too never found any WMD's. Nice, huh? Apparently they're STILL searching: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/12/wmd.search/ "Despite intensive searches, no banned Iraqi weapons were found after the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime." Uh.. anyhow.. Happy Birthday to the non-arrogant and non-ignorant part of the american population! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I guarantee if we had gone in during the first Gulf War we would have found those WMD's. Saddam had plenty of time to get them out of country, hide them, or dispose of them. And if he is so innocent, why did he kick out the UN weapon inspectors so many years ago? Perhaps he was afraid that they might find something? And I just love how everyone is so quick to point out the flaws in the U.S. I bet if I did a google search, I could find tons of sh*t on your nations to point out. No country is perfect. And is that comment of yours suggesting that we are all ignorant and arrogant? Because that's the biggest piece of bullsh*t I have ever heard. I'm in a really bad mood right now Oh, and I love this one: Yeah, you're right. If "standing up" means going to war. Otherwise I know plenty of nations who stand up for democracy and freedom without actually killing people with differing opinions and/or ideologies. Oh, ok there. Lets just negotiate with the terrorists. That will work well. Because we all know how terrorists like to be peaceful when it comes to negotiations From what I can ascertain, your anti-war. But guess what. You ready for it? War is sometimes necessary. Sometimes peace must be attained with the bayonet instead of the olive branch. Sad, but true. Deal with it. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195
Calax Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 ... i thought Dubya did win the popular vote... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> he did on the second one but against al gore he only got 49% but he achieved the electoral # required. Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.
11XHooah Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 i find our election system horribly broken (yes i'm an american psudorichboy) How could sombody be elected with only 49% of the vote? and why don't they change it to a popular vote? because quite simply the smaller (population wise) states are scared of loosing their power to decide things in the elections. Also america did lose a war and just calling it a military action is increadibly stupid. that is the reason that congress drafted and passed the War Powers Act, you can't deploy troops overseas for more than 100 days without a decleration of war. Only problem is that the congress are scared to use it, and right now they are simply bushes lapdogs. Technically we could impeach him for a breech of the war powers act, and for going on a "freedom fight" for false reasons. I can't believe we let bush get away with saying "we are going to bring freedom, christianity and disneyland to iraq". not highly publisized but it's still there :ph34r:. By the way moth, 11x and you others, how does it feel to be the first members of the United Empire of america? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There was no official declaration of war, thus it is not a war. It was deemed a military action. And Bush only got 49% of the popular vote, but we use the electoral college here, you should know that. And who said we were bringing Christianity to Iraq? I must have missed that in one of his speeches And in response to that United Empire of America (try capitalizing America next time): War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195
Calax Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 I didn't capitalize it on purpose, does that make me a traitor? But bush had to make a declaration of war to keep troops in Iraq for more than 100 days. Vietnam is the reason for the war powers act. Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.
jaguars4ever Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 PS. Oh and Jaq, you got something mixed up there, we once ruled them in the Kalmar Union, but never vice versa. Danes were never slaves, but we did have Thralls " <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My bad, you're right - you guys properly gimped the Swedes as you pointed out during Kalmar; not the other way 'round.
11XHooah Posted July 4, 2005 Posted July 4, 2005 I didn't capitalize it on purpose, does that make me a traitor? But bush had to make a declaration of war to keep troops in Iraq for more than 100 days. Vietnam is the reason for the war powers act. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, but you should always capitalize the name of a country. It's just proper writing. As for the other part of your post, you are thinking of the War Powers Resolution. I was starting to question your use of The Wars Power Act in your previous post. It didn't sound like the right one. The War Powers Act was used to define, regulate, and punish trading with the enemy, and for other purposes. And Bush did not need an official declaration of war to be in Iraq this long. Congress passed a resolution authorizing the use of force, and that's all he needed. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195
213374U Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 It's not a country. It's a continent. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
11XHooah Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 It's not a country. It's a continent. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Um, The United States of America isn't a continent. It is a portion of the continent North America. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195
Archmonarch Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Exactly. 'Of America' implying it belongs to a larger land mass named America. Thus, America is a continent, not a country. And I find it kind of funny I find it kind of sad The dreams in which I'm dying Are the best I've ever had
Jellybelly Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 I find it surprising, or not really surprising, that none of those who advocate America as the founders of modern democracy, try to answer Metadigital's post... "
Dark Moth Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 (edited) Well, Metadigital, if you even bothered to read my posts, you would have realized that I did recognize Greece as a democracy. As I said, though, their empire collapsed a long time ago. The U.S. was one of the first countries to put Democracy into successful use in the more modern times. That is what I meant, but you're putting words into my mouth. I never said we were the founders of democracy. We are not soley responsible, we just contributed. I know all about the age of enlightenment, but we were among the first to actually put it into practice AND make it work in the modern age. As for the Iraq war, if you still think we're in there for economoic interests, you're wrong. Any $$$ we hoped to make from it is now drowned out by the billions of dollars it is costing us now. And the last time I checked, we are still paying over 2$ a gallon for gas. And of course, our soldiers are dying almost every day. Ironically, the highest number of casualties from terrorists in Iraq are actually Iraqis. The main reason we are in there is the "you break it you fix it" policy. We went into war based on faulty intelligence that Bush based his theories on. Only after the war did we realize our huge mistake. I'm not 100% behind Bush in all his actions. I felt he made many mistakes in the Iraq war, in fact. But we can't change that now. All we can hope for is to be able to work with the Iraqis and stabilize their country. If we can't, then all our work is in vain. When Saddam's regime fell, you saw Iraqis dancing in the streets and defacing statues of him. He was not liked. Unfortunately, many of his loyalists, foreign extremists, and even some Iraqis are trying desperately to undermine our efforts there. That, and many Iraqis are discontented with the situation there. It's been proven that most terrorist attacks are commited by foreign extremists. As I said, most casualties from TERROR attacks have been Iraqis. If we pull out now, we will leave their country vulnerable. We learned that lesson back in Afghanistan - we left them to fend for themselves after helping them defeat the Russians. Big mistake. Oh, and as for the electoral college, I am heavily in favor of getting rid of that. I doubt we'll see it happening any time soon because the bigger states don't want to lose influence. And please, people, can we stop turning this into a heated political discussion? Please? Edited July 5, 2005 by Mothman
darth spock Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 And please, people, can we stop turning this into a heated political discussion? Please? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Of course not. Everybody wants to bite off the other person's head. <_< Fanfics: KotOR II: After the Credits Rolled: Read Force Sight: Read Other: Gaming Blog: Read
metadigital Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 ... i thought Dubya did win the popular vote... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> he did on the second one but against al gore he only got 49% but he achieved the electoral # required. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You must hate the last president to cheat the system too ... let's see, the 35th President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, who obtained office via his father's bribery-led vote-rigging in Massachusetts, Illinois and Texas. "... Serious allegations that vote fraud in Texas and Illinois had cost Nixon the presidency[4]. Especially troubling were the unusually huge margins in Richard Daley's Chicago OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Dark Moth Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 And we all know what happened to Kennedy... " And Nixon, of course, had to resign or else he'd be deep-fried. (watergate scandal)
metadigital Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 And we all know what happened to Kennedy... " And Nixon, of course, had to resign or else he'd be deep-fried. (watergate scandal) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you lie down with [lousy] dogs [meaning the less-than righteous sections of the cummunity whose support was garnered by the Kennedy family], you get up with fleas. Still, my point was that Kennedy is almost universally lauded as an exemplary leader. It is ironic that he had to cheat to get in. I wonder if we can draw any conclusions from that ... " OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT
Calax Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Kennady and Linclon are both considered great leaders because they died in office, and it would be "unethical" to consider sombody who was elected who died in office a horrible person and expose their bad side. Also the Kennedy's still have a large amound of power in the US goverment. Would sombody please get me out of this blasted country!!! Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.
Dark Moth Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 Um, no, Lincoln was a great leader because he actually did things for this country. " George Washington wasn't killed in office, yet many consider him a great leader. Many historians agree that if Lincoln wasn't killed, he would have done a better job of restoring the country and mending relations with the south. He used the theme of "with malice toward none" for repairing relations with the south. Unless you're a south/slavery sympathizer, I don't understand how you could call him a BAD leader. He's one of the people who helped make this country better. :D Go America.
Calax Posted July 5, 2005 Posted July 5, 2005 i'm not saying he's abad leader just that nobody will point out flaws in him otherwise they get villified by tha populance. When were in elementary school we are taught to revere George Washington, Linclon, and Kennady above all others. Nixon is a devil and Jefferson is just there. nobody bothers to mention the bad stuff about the top 3 because they are considered to be america's personal saints, byond reproach. and with Washington you don't hear about the infighting between factions during the administration. Similar to FDR but FDR is finially getting his time in the popular medias only now. I can't wait to see what they come up with when they look closly at bush. Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.
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