Re: Question/Thoughts On Kreia Ending

[Lord_Peter]

I finally completed SWKOTOR 2 last night (stayed up until 6.30am this morning, a 12 hour stint!) and have spent a very enjoyable time reading everything on this forum and the net about the cut endings/missing planet/sound files etc etc (btw, have you seen the Wikipedia article at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Kn..._The_Sith_Lords

 

...very interesting and a great summary)

 

 

Anyway, I had a question/thoughts about the game finale where you confront Kreia, an issue which is annoying and not answered by any of the other posts I have found (e.g. Is Kreia Evil thread?)

 

The thing that one that annoyed me the most about the whole Kreia thing with the ending was that....why was it necessary to fight her? It seems that the designers made it so the game ended in a final battle as (remember it was initially a console RPG) then there is a 'big boss fight'.

 

...It would have been much better if there was an option to avoid the battle if your Persuasion/Wisdom/Intelligence skill was high enough or you chose the right options....e.g. convince Kreia that she is wrong - accepting you were manipulated by her but that it doesn't need to end in her or your death. What I am talking about is an ending like at the end of Planescape:Torment where you, as the immortal Nameless One could convince The Transcendent One (the manifestation of your mortality and fear) to become one with you and so the two halves would be joined together once more and you could face the judgement denied for so long. You could still battle it if you wanted (or commit suicide with the Blade of the Immortal) but it was not the most satisfying of endings...

 

Something similar could have happened with Kreia at the end of SWKOTOR 2....it seems too simplistic to just have a battle and the only outcome being that one of you would die. Why not, for example, convince Kreia to come with you to find Revan in the unknown regions as he/she searched for the True Sith Empire? (Maybe that is a plot-line considered by Obsidian for SWKOTOR 3 i.e. Kreia is still alive and you meet her)

 

What do you think?

[GhostofAnakin]

Kreia explained it in her dialogue to you. I'm paraphrasing here, but basically she said that defeating her was your final "test". She wanted you to become this powerful force and in order to do that you needed to show you were stronger than what was thrown at you. In her thinking, if you couldn't defeat her, then she failed as a master and you just weren't strong enough to do what she wanted.

[QeL_Droma]

kreia gives many clues about kotor3 at the end of the game if you want to know much try to increase your influence from the beginning of the game so you can learn much about the kotor3.

[Lord_Peter]

Thanks, GhostOfAnakin...but a question....why was it necessary for Kreia to die? I understand she decided to kill you if you couldn't defeat her, because she wanted you to be strong to carry on her will (go to follow Revan?) but why did she need to die afterwards? Don't you think an alternative, non-battle option (or maybe a battle to subdue her initially) would have been better, where you could have convinced her to join with you and go and e.g. find Revan together?

[Dark Moth]

I don't think she had to die. When you defeated her first (as a LS) she activates the 3 lightsabers and says "You will not show me mercy". I can see it being a test, but why did you have to kill her? I guess Kreia felt she had to die by the exile's hand for some strange reason.

 

One thing I hated most was the True Sith revelation. For me, it was like "You are beautiful to me, exile...You must leave Visas/handmaiden behind...the Republic will fall...oh, and by the way, the True Sith are out there" *falls over and dies*

 

If the storytellers wanted to improve it, they would have made the True Sith the game's big revelation and focused more on that than Kreia and Revan. You finished the game not knowing anything about the true Sith, just that they are there.

[GhostofAnakin]

Thanks, GhostOfAnakin...but a question....why was it necessary for Kreia to die? I understand she decided to kill you if you couldn't defeat her, because she wanted you to be strong to carry on her will (go to follow Revan?) but why did she need to die afterwards? Don't you think an alternative, non-battle option (or maybe a battle to subdue her initially) would have been better, where you could have convinced her to join with you and go and e.g. find Revan together?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

More than likely it was assumed that her wounds were too great from battle to be saved, much like Darth Vader died at the end of RotJ despite being "redeemed". She wanted the exile to defeat her if he could, and in doing so she probably would have fought to the death and thus the only way to defeat her was to also kill her.

[Lord_Peter]

Thanks, GhostOfAnakin...but a question....why was it necessary for Kreia to die? I understand she decided to kill you if you couldn't defeat her, because she wanted you to be strong to carry on her will (go to follow Revan?) but why did she need to die afterwards? Don't you think an alternative, non-battle option (or maybe a battle to subdue her initially) would have been better, where you could have convinced her to join with you and go and e.g. find Revan together?

[Lord_Peter]

Yes, good points by Mothman and GhostOfAnakin, but still, don't you think it would have been better if she could have joined with you and gone to find Revan, after all, isn't that what she wanted? To find Revan again, to accompany The Exile her apprentice? It just seems her death is too convenient and incongrous...what do you think?

[GhostofAnakin]

Yes, good points by Mothman and GhostOfAnakin, but still, don't you think it would have been better if she could have joined with you and gone to find Revan, after all, isn't that what she wanted? To find Revan again, to accompany The Exile her apprentice? It just seems her death is too convenient and incongrous...what do you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

She didn't want to find Revan. She wanted a)revenge on those who wronged her (or who she felt wronged her), and b)for the Exile, who she believed to be the "perfect" individual who could wield the Force BUT didn't need the Force to survive, to achieve his destiny. Once both of those were achieved, she no longer cared to accomplish anything else and thus probably didn't care if she lived or died.

[Mucka_Heartagram]

I don't think she had to die.  When you defeated her first (as a LS) she activates the 3 lightsabers and says "You will not show me mercy".  I can see it being a test, but why did you have to kill her?  I guess Kreia felt she had to die by the exile's hand for some strange reason. 

 

One thing I hated most was the True Sith revelation.  For me, it was like "You are beautiful to me, exile...You must leave Visas/handmaiden behind...the Republic will fall...oh, and by the way, the True Sith are out there"  *falls over and dies*

 

If the storytellers wanted to improve it, they would have made the True Sith the game's big revelation and focused more on that than Kreia and Revan.  You finished the game not knowing anything about the true Sith, just that they are there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You end up knowing nothing about the True Sith because nobody knows anything about them, just that they are there.

[ncr]

She was a tragic figure...

[Lord_Peter]

Thanks for the replies...yes, Kreia was a tragic figure, with many contradictions in her. I'm not going to get into the 'was she evil/neutral' debate in detail, but definitely she was evil (maybe Lawful Evil?)...although it would be interesting to know how she was corrupted when she visited Malachor V the first time and discovering Traya Academy.

 

I do think that the ending was rushed in respect to her, however, as some of her dialogue at the end borders on the nonsensical/gibberish, and certain aspects of her should have been made clearer. Maybe that was deliberate, but I'm not sure

 

She should definitely make an appearance in SWKOTOR 3 - she was a highly developed character and central to the whole SWKOTOR story in that she trained Revan in the first place...I expect someone of her power should have survived the end of KOTOR 2!

[Cloris]

I think Kreia had to die because she knew the path she was on (the death of the Force), and knew that the Exile was the only one that could stop her, and that she would only stop when she was dead.

 

I enjoy the "was she good/evil/neutral" debate -- because I find her to be all of these things rather than any one exclusively.

 

That's just my opinion,

 

Cloris

[Lord_Peter]

Check out this Wikipedia entry on Kreia - it is very well written (who wrote it? - one of Obsidian's team?) I think it is correct - particularly good is the section on Kreia's personality...linked to the whole Good/Evil/Neutral debate - ultimately she was a lonely, tragic figure who had been betrayed (Darth TRAYA) and then who betrays others (she seems well aware of her own nature...I seem to remember at one point The Exile asks her about the three Sith Lords, and she mentions Nihilus and Sion and then the third, the 'Betrayar' who could either be Atris (and there is a somewhat confusing overlap between Atris and Kreia...who is Darth Traya, and which one is at Malachor 5 - listen carefully to the dialogue between the two of them e.g.

 

"Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn."

 

But anyway, interesting and superbly written article, summing up the relationship between Kreia and The Exile...

 

DARTH TRAYA/KREIA

 

 

Darth Traya is a character from the Star Wars game Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. Darth Traya is the name that the Jedi Master Kreia took after she was exiled from the Jedi Order and became a Sith Lord, one of the three the title of the game refers to. She had also taught Darth Revan in the Jedi ways while still a Jedi. Kreia was consumed by guilt after the Jedi Civil War, wondering if her teachings had led to Revan's fall. She travelled to Malachor V, which she sensed as Revan's last location and, corrupted by the dark side, embraced the secrets of the Sith.

 

Spoiler warning: Plot or ending details follow.

Darth Traya discovered an academy on Malachor V known as the Trayus Academy. The academy was apparently an ancient Sith ruin, so it is unknown if Traya named the academy after herself, or herself after the academy. It is quite possible that the existence of this structure might have been why the Mandalorians treated Malachor V with religious reverence.

 

Contents [showhide]

1 Teachings

 

2 Personality

 

3 Abilities

 

4 External Links

 

[edit]

Teachings

Among her students were Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion. Even when she was a Sith, Traya had some notion that neither the light nor dark side of the Force was truly superior to the other. Because her teachings incorporated light side concepts (she never believed in power or destruction for its own sake), Sion and Nihilus grew weary of her. They betrayed her, but she either managed to escape, or was allowed to live.

 

Darth Traya would refine her views while wandering the galaxy; at some point she would fall into a heresy the most degenerate Sith never entertained- she came to view the Force as an uncaring, insidious god that uses the lives of sentients as pawns in a cosmic game of balance. She noted the tremendous loss of life throughout history, and far into the future, during the many battles between the Jedi and the Sith, but Darth Traya blamed neither the Jedi nor the Sith but rather the very thing they both drew upon and were practically defined by- the Force. She was, however, angry at both the Jedi and the Sith for being too "caught up in the game" to realize how the Force was manipulating them all. Exiled from the Jedi Order after the blame for her Padawan becoming Darth Revan devolved upon her, and later exiled and stripped of her authority and position by her impatient Sith students Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion, Darth Traya experienced betrayals from, and thus saw the flaws of, both the Light and Dark sides of the Force. These unique experiences left her disillusioned with the Force as a whole and may even have contributed to her becoming one of the greatest Sith Lords of her time apart from Darth Revan.

 

When she heard about the Jedi Exile, she saw evidence that life can exist without the Force, disproof of the traditional dogma of both Sith and Jedi that the Force and life itself were inseparable. This gave Traya a renewed confidence in her personal beliefs, and the desire to learn more of the Exile's personal experiences. By the end of her adventures with the Exile, during which time she went by the name of Kreia, Traya had devised a method to kill the Force with "echoes" (her term)- tragedies that leave persistent wounds in the universe that made the Force difficult (sometimes impossible) to hear and be used. Her discovery of these "echoes", and her avenue of attack on the Force was due entirely to the Exile; he provided the first 'echo' that she could study by his actions on the planet of Malachor V, and he turned the echoes by his survival from mere curiosity into being a viable mechanism for destroying the Force. By Darth Traya's reasoning, people who died of these echoes when they could not bear to voluntarily sever themselves from the Force (like the Exile did to save his life), they were not strong enough to deserve to live in the first place. Her hatred of the Force was her overriding goal for in her mind, due to her conviction that if she did not kill it, even more would die in the future.

 

[edit]

Personality

As a person, Darth Traya was self-reliant, constantly wary of the intentions of others, perhaps due to her own favoring of manipulation as a preferred method of achieving objectives.

 

In her teachings with the Jedi Exile, she emphasized how much could be achieved without falling back on the Force, and how helpless Jedi or Sith would often be without the Force. In the course of her adventures with the Exile, whenever the Exile helped someone in need, Traya often remonstrated the Exile for taking away the challenges of others, thus becoming stronger while the lives of others remain static and unchallenged. Traya apparently believed in a "survival of the fittest" philosophy, though she encouraged people to struggle in order to grow stronger, physically and mentally.

 

After being betrayed by those closest to her, Traya expected the worst from the people around her. As the Exile's circle of companions grew, Traya came to see how these companions can be used for her own ends, as well as finding ways to ensure their loyalty through methods like blackmail. Traya once read the mind of Atton Rand, learning his dark history, and used that to blackmail him into the Exile's service. Another time she tempted the Mandalorian leader, Mandalore, with knowledge of Darth Revan's fate in order to ensure that he would not betray the Exile.

 

A master of manipulation, Traya used betrayal and deception to achieve her goals. She lied to the Exile at the beginning of their quest, claiming that the Jedi Council had stripped the Force from the Jedi Exile. Traya knew this would lead the Exile to seek out the surviving members of the Jedi Council, which would allow Traya to kill them. On Onderon, Traya lied to Colonel Tobin about the existence of many Jedi in a Jedi Academy on Telos. Traya knew that Tobin would relay this to his true Master, Darth Nihilus, who would not be able to resist such a chance to replenish himself, and would recklessly assault. This left Nihilus vulnerable to the Mandalorians and the Exile.

 

Darth Traya has a softer side to her personality that is more apparent when she is with the Jedi Exile. Because the Exile, by merely existing, has proven that Traya's philosophies were right, Traya would do anything to ensure that the Exile lives, even if the galaxy were to die. She was wise enough to know that her philosophies would not be welcomed by either Jedi or Sith, as they denigrated the one dogma that each held. Because of this, she felt terribly lonely, unable to voice what she believed in without being ostracized by those around her. The Jedi Exile gave Traya a new purpose in life and a chance for her philosophies to be proven right. It is for these reasons that Traya cared so deeply for the Exile.

 

[edit]

Abilities

Darth Traya had the (possibly unique) ability to wield three or more lightsabers in combat, holding each of them aloft with the Force, and having them fight with a will of their own.

 

Traya's eyes appear badly damaged but later are revealed to have simply atrophied from disuse. It was within her Force power's ability to have repaired her eyesight but she refused to do so, having a superior ability to "see" through the Force and regarding her natural sight as a distraction.

 

Traya had once been a historian of the Jedi, but realized early on that the Code of the Jedi did not answer all the questions she posed. She was also a master manipulator, having used this skill to maneuver herself into a position of power at the Trayus Academy and, later, trick the Jedi and Sith into revealing themselves, allowing her or others to destroy them.

 

On a final note, it was revealed she had many detailed glimpses into the future, some even spanning to the fall of the Republic nearly 4,000 years later. Her clairvoyance was even so specific that she was able to predict the existence and death of Jango Fett. Shortly before her death, one of her predictions regarding the Mandalorians went as follows: "They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and, in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi." This references both the fact that Jango wore Mandalorian body armor and his defeat on Geonosis (shown in Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones).

 

Like Sidious and Vader, Darth Traya's name suggests another word: betrayal.

[metadigital]

Yeah, I just read the main K2 entry, and it seems to have been written by a member of the dev/publisher team (especially the bit quoted above about Traya).

 

I have a few excerpts I'd like to rebut, however ( :D ):

 

[quote name='wikip

[RevanRedefined]

kreia gives many clues about kotor3 at the end of the game if you want to know much try to increase your influence from the beginning of the game so you can learn much about the kotor3.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You must've not read her context too well. Even with full influence on Kreia she reveals nothing of KOTOR3, she reveals the future of your party members at the end, thats about all of the future you'll get to read.

 

Most of her dialogs from your 1 on 1 conversations had to do with KOTOR1 and Revan, or whatever you asked her about.

[Cubeoid]

Nice try. Even with all the complete back stories, there is still sizeable plot missing, either because it was removed or never written.

 

Would anyone be able to tell me just what parts were missing? I was under the impression that most were tied up if you had the right influence.

 

Again, nice try: "The missing plot and ending was a deliberate tactic to leave plenty of room for the sequel to be written."

 

I don't think they ever said it was deliberate. Besides it was never needed for the ending to go on until all of the characters were dead. I mean just where would you have liked it to end?

[Solar Xero]

Basically the whole damn storyline is one great big test of your " f word" nerves!!!