Padawan or Solo?

[Plano Skywalker]

>not in the game I was playing she wasn't my mentor.

 

>Bastilla accompanies you. Not trains you. Damn. Where you smoking pot while >playing

 

OK, your guy is a complete neophyte....she takes you to Dantooine....that is significant....she tries to help you understand Force Bonds.....the "little stuff" is important early one. She WAS *rescued Revan's* first Force teacher.

[Plano Skywalker]

remember, too, that alot of people will be playing K3 as their first SW RPG.

the little stuff has to be explained as it was by Bastila.

 

I think Jolee would make a great starting teacher....maybe levels 1-7.

And then, you start to branch out as you study the higher mysteries of

the Force.

 

You CAN enter into a Padawan relationship but you don't have to in order to keep growing.

[metadigital]

It is also feasible that you may choose to go solo. (Especially if not a Jedi, but neutral. Sith training is probably still through am apprenticeship, but not necessarily.)

[Plano Skywalker]

It is also feasible that you may choose to go solo. (Especially if not a Jedi, but neutral. Sith training is probably still through am apprenticeship, but not necessarily.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

right. and this kind of ties in with faction-affiliation. you can always find a retired/washed-up/retread kind of Jedi or Dark Jedi to teach you the basics.

 

but only a card-carrying faction member is going to learn the purple lightsaber form of Mace Windu.

 

faction membership unlocks forms, feats and even certain party members that are not available any other way.

[metadigital]

can't argue with that.

[Uldin]

JOLEE BINDO as a force ghost throughout the game mentoring you would be awesome... I would much rather have him behind the scenes than Kreia

[metadigital]

If a padawan is automatically promoted to master when her master dies, isn't that encouraging the padawans to kill their masters?  I wouldn't like to take on a student who benefited from my death! :ph34r:  Perhaps this is where the Sith got the idea from...

 

I prefer the idea of the 'orphaned' padawan going back into the pool to wait for the next available master, though I agree that normal rules would have to be suspended in the crisis following Kotor 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a test to become a Jedi Knight: Obi-Wan passed the test by killing the Sith Knight that offed Qui-Gon Jin. (Obviously that is not the normal test to accede to Knighthood, it just served the purposes of the Council at the time.)

 

So I'm sure there's a bunch of tests that the orphans can try to pass.

[MTJ]

Umm Obi-Wan never went through the trails I think. He was given Knightship after sucessfully defeating Darth Maul and taking Anakain as his apprentice.

 

Remember the scene with Yoda? Obi-wan is a padawan and he's asking that the Council will support him in his training of Anakin. Yoda at first refuses but than agrees. That infact caused Obi-wan to be promoted to Jedi knight as padawans cannot be masters to other jedi padawans.

 

Also I think an masterless padawan would probably either have to wait for a master, if none could be found. He would probably be given the chance to complete the jedi knight trails, if not you end up being a washed out jedi whose lightsaber gets confiscated by the council.

 

I can't remember who but someone (a character) said that force users and jedi padawans (I guess the masterless or ones whose masters are killed) are sent to Telos to be farmers

[The Yeti of 66]

Full Jedi.

[MTJ]

No

[jaguars4ever]

I think that if they do go the padawan-master route, it would be cool to have a plot like this-

 

After the "training planet" and the first real planet, you get a master to train you. 

 

If you are LS, your master will be ls and you will save the galaxy together. (Or he will die and you will go on to save the galaxy alone and face his killer)

 

If you are DS, you will eventually become stronger than your ds master and in the end you will destroy him, take on an apprentice of your own (one of your crew members who is force sensitive.  You will train them and then confront your master together.)  This should mirror the LS "master death" late in the game- on LS you could take on a padawan.  Your master's dieing words telling you that you are ready to train another (once again, a FS crew member)

 

They might also have some sort of neutral master if they want to add a third dimension to play, you're goal will be to bring stability to the core worlds.

 

You could keep the same planets and cities (with maybe a few alignment specific areas) but have different side quests, different crew members, and several different endings

 

And with all scenarios, they need a better romance tie-in!  Maybe as DS, the force sensitive crew member could be the one you use to challenge your master with and train as an apprentice. Either way, you should have a lot of options.

 

As DS, since you have a master, it will allow for a more cool and calculating form of DS, like the kind we see in the movies.  Less taking candy from small children, more manipulation and power-hungryness.

 

As LS,  having a master will give it a very movie-like feel as well, and will add a little direction without making the game linear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fairly impressive ideas, young Padawan.

[Plano Skywalker]

to be honest, I'm more concerned about what they don't do than what they do.

 

list of *please don't do*:

 

>> Do NOT link the Force training with main story triggers and clues.

 

>> Do NOT put our primary Force teacher on the PC's ship.

 

>> Do NOT use any "Force Bonds" as part of our training this time.

(use the Force Ghost device instead...and use it sparingly).

 

>> Do NOT give a Jedi Weapon Master the same primary teacher as a Sith Lord....please, don't do it!!!

 

>> Do NOT give us fake padawans....give us the real Master/Padawan relationship.

 

>> Do NOT require us to keep going back to our mentor for things like crystal focusing....the PC should learn this and then start doing it himself.

[metadigital]

Umm Obi-Wan never went through the trails I think. He was given Knightship after sucessfully defeating Darth Maul and taking Anakain as his apprentice.

 

Remember the scene with Yoda? Obi-wan is a padawan and he's asking that the Council will support him in his training of Anakin. Yoda at first refuses but than agrees. That infact caused Obi-wan to be promoted to Jedi knight as padawans cannot be masters to other jedi padawans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is exactly what I was referring to. Killing Darth Maul, in effect, was Obi-Wan's trial. And the Council refused Obi-Wan permission to train Anakin. Then they promoted him to Jedi Knight, and he took "anyone" to be his padawan, which just happens to be Anakin.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

I actually would prefer your master being a jedi knight and becoming a master after half way because you completed your trails.

 

The whole jedi master death would be hard to pull off sucessfully and if your master dies.. well what happens to your padawan? We don't even know what happens to Padawans when their masters die. Do they become Jedi knights? Do they get kicked out of the order?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the padawan is always with the Master, so if the padawan survives, then instant Masterhood.

 

The only issue would be if the padawan were not with their Master at the time of death (off on a side quest, say) -- then, that would be a good hook for the plot. Maybe have to prove yourself ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah I bet that why Obi-wan was so pissed because anakain joined the sith within months of the jedi knight trial.

 

Offically Obi-wan is a jedi knight who had a padawan (like all Jedi knights at some point) but as Anakain never became a jedi knight, Obi-wan could never become an offical master

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually Anakin was made a Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars. If you watched the cartoon you would know this, but if that doesn't please you, in Ep IV Obi-Wan tells Luke: "Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight same as your father."

 

Umm Obi-Wan never went through the trails I think. He was given Knightship after sucessfully defeating Darth Maul and taking Anakain as his apprentice.

 

Remember the scene with Yoda? Obi-wan is a padawan and he's asking that the Council will support him in his training of Anakin. Yoda at first refuses but than agrees. That infact caused Obi-wan to be promoted to Jedi knight as padawans cannot be masters to other jedi padawans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is exactly what I was referring to. Killing Darth Maul, in effect, was Obi-Wan's trial. And the Council refused Obi-Wan permission to train Anakin. Then they promoted him to Jedi Knight, and he took "anyone" to be his padawan, which just happens to be Anakin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Council did not refuse permission to train Anakin, they actually granted him permission.

 

Yoda"...the level of Jedi Knight the Council does, but agree with your taking this boy as your padawan learner I do not!

 

"Agree with you the Council does, your apprentice... Skywalker... will be. *sigh* "

[metadigital]

The Council did not refuse permission to train Anakin, they actually granted him permission.

 

Yoda"...the level of Jedi Knight the Council does, but agree with your taking this boy as your padawan learner I do not!

 

"Agree with you the Council does, your apprentice... Skywalker... will be. *sigh* "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like it is at least a spilt decision -- and therefore there are a few Council members that believe as Qui-Gon did. However, I would wager that there were few precedents for refusing a Jedi Knight's choice of padawan, and that this had more to do with the Council's grudging acceptance rather than a true "acceptance" of Anakin.

[Starbreeze]

If it can be done in a way that doesn't echo the ever-lurking presence of Kreia.

 

If you spent the first third/half of the game accompanying your master on missions around the galaxy, sometimes at her side, sometimes sent off on your own for mini-quests or allowed to wander around by yourself.  It would be rather linear, so not typical for Kotor, but if it were well written it could be fun.

 

Then at a point in the game your master would either fall to the dark side or get killed, leaving you to hunt her/her killers down.  Could be very powerful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree! A little Obi-Wan feeling here...

[Yst]

Definitely, just for a change, I'd like to play a master, with a padawan of my own. No excuses for the protagonist not having a significant backstory, or not knowing his past, but having it all filled in ultimately by prefab cinematics and binary (good guy/bad guy) dialogue choices. I like that KotOR and KotOR II try to break away from the traditional RPG formulas by having a character with a meaningful history and identity, but I think it can go further, and the amnesia trope is an unfortunate and now overused cop-out as far as character development goes.

 

Though I know open endedness flies in the face of the idea that games should throw all the better qualites of the RPG gaming genre out the window in order to better emulate the appearance of being a semi-interactive Hollywood movies, I'd nevertheless hope for as much open endedness as possible in the next generation. Let the character be a character from the start, and not a blank slate (e.g., the anonymous padawan who becomes the 'chosen one') to be inscribed with characteristics assigned by a script.

 

Let the character be a master, with a history and a personality if he so chooses.

 

Maybe the days of open-ended character creation are dead, and we're all destined to play at best whichever we choose from two available prefabricated personalities (Evil Anonymous Student/Adventurer who becomes The Chosen One or Good Anonymous Student/Adventurer who becomes The Chosen One) defined by dialogue choices of each kind in any RPG from this day forward, but I hope that's not the case.

[The Yeti of 66]

As I said in another forum. I want to be a full Jedi that had fallen to the dark side. This Jedi was the greatest ____ user of the Jedi order (depending on class) and became the greatest user of the Sith as well. Shortly before the tragedy on Malachor V you left, unable to bear that you had just slaughtered so many that were close to you. Even your own Jedi Master.

 

Eventually the stress, and the flood of emotions the Sith teach you to use make you so broken, so pained that you destroy yourself in the force. Your body basically collapses on yourself. You return to the outer rim when you hear a new Jedi academy has been constructed, but you take the role of a watchman, though your power has left, and without if you are too weak to retrieve your lightsaber.

 

Through the force you are sent on a quest, you then learn what is put before you, you either go back to the Jedi and redeem yourself in the eyes of the Republic and those exiled Jedi, or you continue your old path and discover how to channel such power once you control your emotions. This could actually set you up for 4 potential endings.

 

The standard 'oh yay, the galaxy was saved, I got the girl and I have plans to party until I collapse drunk and ironically die from a hit to the head.'

 

Then you have the ending where you came back to the light, but became one with the force saving another, though it would have to be well done.

 

You have the Dark Rise to power as we have seen in many games, where you have no idea what power is there to get, but you will have your hands on it.

 

Then the last one, you fall again in a much more powerful, and much more tragic fall over something that happened to you, think of a Darth Vader style but much more personal cause you will spend more like 35 hours as opposed to 7. This ending could be a favorite for good acting and the Star Wars spirit that shows that power in the end is futile for what you lose.

 

This could be well done with a master, but is set up much more highly if you are the great Jedi knight, the leader of your crew, what happens is up to you. Will you rise to power on their back? Will they help you to save the galaxy and meet large dancing women? Will you become so Dark and twisted yet so strongly bounded to them that when you finally take the last blow you will linger on in pain and darkness? Or will you fight so strongly to save them that it will cost your life. If *you* are the one pulling all of the strings, leading all of this then it could be a much better an open ended story.

 

The concept of right and wrong is always set by the master. Now *you* set right and wrong and see the consequences for yourself. Now it won't just sound harsh, it will *be* harsh. You will see it for yourself.

[The Yeti of 66]

Also, if you find out about your past early in the game, though it will take a long time to implement it allows *you* to choose your character development.

[Padmi Skydrunkard]

I'd rather be a padawan, at first. :D

 

I don't want some kid following my char around needing 'guidance' or rather, mothering.

 

I'd rather be the brat and pester the Master all the time threatening to go DS if they're not nice to my char, or just to upset them

[Plano Skywalker]

As I said in another forum. I want to be a full Jedi that had fallen to the dark side. This Jedi was the greatest ____ user of the Jedi order (depending on class) and became the greatest user of the Sith as well. Shortly before the tragedy on Malachor V you left, unable to bear that you had just slaughtered so many that were close to you. Even your own Jedi Master.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right, Arcanum allows you to choose a bit of backstory if you want at character-creation time.

 

things like:

 

* raised by wolves

* joined the circus

* elven blood

 

etc, give your PC certain advantages and certain disadvantages.

 

I personally believe the KOTOR games should give us about 4 or 5 fairly detailed backstories to choose from and that the story is heavily influenced by what we choose. Basically, with RPGs, it is a choice: the more straightjacketed the PC's identity is, the more immersive the story can be written around him....the more "open-ended" the PC's identity is, the more "generic" and haphazard the story is going to be.

 

By giving us 4 or 5 "prefab" options, this gives us the illusion of open-endedness while allowing the devs to create a quality, immersive story.

[Petay]

Hmmm, I think starting off as a master and then developing would add a certain difference to the game, especially if your Padawan decided to turn to the DS while you are still light.

 

A good way that you find out about your history could be like when Atton asks the Exile about Revan and your lightsaber, you just tell it to someone to clear it up.

Good ideas... :D

[metadigital]

Definitely, just for a change, I'd like to play a master, with a padawan of my own.  No excuses for the protagonist not having a significant backstory, or not knowing his past, but having it all filled in ultimately by prefab cinematics and binary (good guy/bad guy) dialogue choices.  I like that KotOR and KotOR II try to break away from the traditional RPG formulas by having a character with a meaningful history and identity, but I think it can go further, and the amnesia trope is an unfortunate and now overused cop-out as far as character development goes.

 

Though I know open endedness flies in the face of the idea that games should throw all the better qualites of the RPG gaming genre out the window in order to better emulate the appearance of being a semi-interactive Hollywood movies, I'd nevertheless hope for as much open endedness as possible in the next generation.  Let the character be a character from the start, and not a blank slate (e.g., the anonymous padawan who becomes the 'chosen one') to be inscribed with characteristics assigned by a script. 

 

Let the character be a master, with a history and a personality if he so chooses.

 

Maybe the days of open-ended character creation are dead, and we're all destined to play at best whichever we choose from two available prefabricated personalities (Evil Anonymous Student/Adventurer who becomes The Chosen One or Good Anonymous Student/Adventurer who becomes The Chosen One) defined by dialogue choices of each kind in any RPG from this day forward, but I hope that's not the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually I think this is a good idea. I think a limited choice from a small number of well worked and researched characters from different "classes" and alignments is much preferable to random infinite hairstyles and select-by-dialogue histories. We are role-playing; we are taking the part of a character in a story. As long as the choice is one that we want, or ideally there are a couple to chose from that encompass at least one that we want (which would provide us with replayability of characters that we might not normally play: broadening the RP experience), than this is sufficient for a great game.

[Yst]

I guess I should furthermore make it clear that I don't think that the KotOR/JE style of play is entirely a bad thing. While I do believe that the KotOR/JE school of game design is sufficient to the creation of great games, I on the other hand still hope that more "open-ended" variations on character creation/development in the RPG genre aren't dead, because I'd prefer a genre with some significant variations and alternative playstyles to one where everything looks the same *cough*JRPGs*cough* and centres around a very few linear plot and character clichees reused ad nauseam. So while I don't by any means object to the KotOR/JE style of play in principle, I'd like something different once in a while instead of universal convergence.

 

And incidentally, I think the idea of being able to choose from complex and detailed but strikingly different character types (which don't merely *look* different or simply do different amounts of damage) at character creation is a quality which I'd like to see maintained

[Plano Skywalker]

Actually I think this is a good idea. I think a limited choice from a small number of well worked and researched characters from different "classes" and alignments is much preferable to random infinite hairstyles and select-by-dialogue histories. We are role-playing; we are taking the part of a character in a story. As long as the choice is one that we want, or ideally there are a couple to chose from that encompass at least one that we want (which would provide us with replayability of characters that we might not normally play: broadening the RP experience), than this is sufficient for a great game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmmm, characters? That would be with names and appearances already defined?

Actually, in Arcanum you can choose a PC that already has a name and a more detailed backstory or you can create your own character and still add a little bit of a backstory.

 

While I would certainly play an RPG that gave me a choice of characters that already had names and appearances, my own preference would be to generate the character first with name, class, gender, starting skills and appearance and then define the backstory during in-game dialogue. As long as this is done within the first hour of play, I think that would be the way to go.

 

Hmmm, how about, during the character creation stage, you have a drop-down menu of backstory. Your choices are:

 

* No backstory

* Minor backstory

* Major backstory

 

No backstory is, of course, for the gamer who wants it totally "open-ended". He misses out on some extra content but he is content knowing that his character is his character.

 

Minor backstory would be things like what planet you were born on, a bit of info on your parents and siblings and whether you gravitate more to the Jedi or Sith.

 

Major backstory is things like, well, basically the Exile has a major backstory. The War Veteran, Jedi Outcast, the Dark Lord of the Sith heir-apparent who got injured and now, 10 years later, is trying to seize the Sith throne, etc.

 

All three approaches have their advantages and disadvantages. But man, you talk about immersion and replayability!