The Jedi and the love issue

[LadyCrimson]

Of course love can lead to the darkside. Ask anyone who's been married 20 years.....

The thing is...in real life, that 'darkside' turn is rarely permanent.

 

In Star Wars, it is....or at least, permanent until your own son finally turns you back to good so you can die a semi-tragic/sympathetic death. :D

 

This kind of 'all or nothing/love is harmful to the hero's ability to be a hero' concept is in tons of stuff - even if it is dealt with in a more complex fashion elsewhere.

 

Spiderman, for example.

[metadigital]

Of course love can lead  to the darkside. Ask anyone who's been married 20 years.....

The thing is...in real life, that 'darkside' turn is rarely permanent.

 

In Star Wars, it is....or at least, permanent until your own son finally turns you back to good so you can die a semi-tragic/sympathetic death. :D

 

This kind of 'all or nothing/love is harmful to the hero's ability to be a hero' concept  is in  tons of stuff - even if it is dealt with in a more complex fashion elsewhere.

 

Spiderman, for example.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GL wishes he had written a script half as good as Spider-Man in dealing with love. (He really ought to get someone to write the dialogue, at least.)

 

It is a common theme in the vast majority of films, from Harrison Ford in "Air Force One", to Harrison Ford in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" (guess which film handles it better).

 

It is the ultimate moral dilemma, the good of the many blanced with the good of the few nearest and dearest. The ultimate sacrifice is something that can be solved with bravery; a dilemma is always going to have some bad consequences.

[Andkat]

Here is my opinoin concerning Love: Love is an instinct propeleld by ignorance into "emotions", which are essentially complex instincts. Instincts may lead to rash decisions. Thus, love must be restrained. Of course I don't believe in love, kidness, joy, etc. There is only greed. Well, that and the ancient Jedi Masters are jealous of their younger companoins, who can still land a date.

[jaguars4ever]

Here is my opinoin concerning Love: Love is an instinct propeleld by ignorance into "emotions", which are essentially complex instincts. Instincts may lead to rash decisions. Thus, love must be restrained. Of course I don't believe in love, kidness, joy, etc. There is only greed.  Well, that and the ancient Jedi Masters are jealous of their younger companoins, who can still land a date.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

**SITH ALERT**

[Hildegard]

Here is my opinoin concerning Love: Love is an instinct propeleld by ignorance into "emotions", which are essentially complex instincts. Instincts may lead to rash decisions. Thus, love must be restrained. Of course I don't believe in love, kidness, joy, etc. There is only greed.  Well, that and the ancient Jedi Masters are jealous of their younger companoins, who can still land a date.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I hate the world........bla.....bla.....bla........my mummy doesn't love me.......

[Plano Skywalker]

one thing to remember is that in the KOTOR games, you are not *really* a Jedi.

that is one of the things that allows for love conversations.

 

part of the KOTOR sub-franchise seems to be that the Jedi and the Sith both have truth and both have lies in their teachings.

 

HOWEVER, with regard to SW in general and the Jedi Order in particular, yes, I think it is patterened off of being, say, like a Knight Templar or Knight Hospitaler...you have given your life to the Force and the teachings of the Light Side. Your life is no longer your own and anything that could take away from your highly disciplined life of service is a threat. Why? Because you are a Force-user. If you become distracted, then the fact that you wield the Force could cause an imbalance to occur. If you want to live as a normal person, then you can always switch off your lightsaber and stop training in the ways of the Force.

 

An interesting analogy: in the Roman Catholic Church, if a priest quits to get married, he is still a priest in the eyes of the Church....he still has the *power* to administer the sacraments...he just does not have *permission* to do so.

However, in the case of a major crisis, he could be granted special dispensation to administer the sacraments. I think the analogy holds: once a Jedi, always a Jedi. But only those who remain true to the teachings of the Order should call themselves Jedi, look like Jedi, carry lightsabers, etc.

[Cloris]

Plano,

 

That would work, except that not all Force users are Jedi, no? We know that even the Jedi turn away Force Sensetives if they cannot be trained (for whatever reason). So unless there was some way that the Jedi or Sith could make sure that no one but them could use the Force, then the logical conclusion is that it is not the ability to use the Force that necessitates withdrawl or absence of love. What do you think, if that made any sense?

 

Cloris

[Plano Skywalker]

Plano,

 

That would work, except that not all Force users are Jedi, no? We know that even the Jedi turn away Force Sensetives if they cannot be trained (for whatever reason). So unless there was some way that the Jedi or Sith could make sure that no one but them could use the Force, then the logical conclusion is that it is not the ability to use the Force that necessitates withdrawl or absence of love. What do you think, if that made any sense?

 

Cloris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well, it is one thing to be a Force Sensitive...if no one ever trains you, you might be the town psychic or something but nothing too threatening.

 

but the Jedi turn you into an awesome instrument of power because of the focus they give you in the ways of the Force. it is because they have turned you into such a weapon that they must ensure that that weapon is never used against them or the Republic. It is really a pragmatic thing more than anything else.

[SteveThaiBinh]

From a security point of view, forbidding love is the more risky approach. Since humans are imperfect, it's likely that there will always be Jedi who 'fall' and succumb to temptation. If forming relationships is forbidden, the Jedi in question is vulnerable to blackmail, surely a greater risk than kidnapping.

[jedipodo]

One point which is commonly overlooked is that Jedi are allowed to have sex. (Link as proof needed?) Even Yoda might have had a hanky-panky then.

 

I think with this information given some of you would approve of the Jedi Code... "

[metadigital]

One point which is commonly overlooked is that Jedi are allowed to have sex. (Link as proof needed?) Even Yoda might have had a hanky-panky then.

 

I think with this information given some of you would approve of the Jedi Code... " 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see this as yet more confirmation that GL should not be allowed to comment on anything in the SW universe as he is just not qualified.

 

This represents his attempt to make a clear distinction to enforce the "love = possessive = wrong" leitmotif.

 

While I agree that love entails giving allegiance to your lover above all else -- which is generally dangerous and may even be specifically untenable -- I would also point out that few people seem to get this and see love in more selfish terms (i.e. self-gratification rather than giving).

 

And also, as has been stated earlier, fighting for love, truth, justice, etc is a very good way to focus one's efforts in the fight for light. The problem comes when a general conflict is turned into a personal hostage scenario, where loyalties may be divided, or compromised with regard to vengence.

[jedipodo]

In my opinion we discuss this "forbidden love" issue in a wrong context.

 

Only members of the Jedi Order aren't allowed to have possessive relationships.

Thus this rule only applies to an absolute minority of elite peacekeepers who can be easily overwelmed by their emotions (which can turn them into homicidal maniacs). For everybody else in the SW universe these rules don't apply.

 

In real life there is no "Force", neither a light nor a dark side.

So, of course, outside of the SW fiction the forbiddance of love doesn't make any sense.

 

For the Jedi Order these rules may be arguable, but at least have a clear motivation.

[Cloris]

well, it is one thing to be a Force Sensitive...if no one ever trains you, you might be the town psychic or something but nothing too threatening.

 

but the Jedi turn you into an awesome instrument of power because of the focus they give you in the ways of the Force.  it is because they have turned you into such a weapon that they must ensure that that weapon is never used against them or the Republic.  It is really a pragmatic thing more than anything else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I could go with that, except that what you said was as follows:

 

Your life is no longer your own and anything that could take away from your highly disciplined life of service is a threat.  Why?  Because you are a Force-user.  If you become distracted, then  the fact that you wield the Force could cause an imbalance to occur.  If you want to live as a normal person, then you can always switch off your lightsaber and stop training in the ways of the Force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hence my reply, since you focused on Force users rather than just on Jedi. Funny that we're assuming that only the Jedi can give the focus needed for large amounts of power -- I don't think that we've really been lead to believe that. As a matter of fact, are we flat out told that many powerful Sith were never Jedi? So why would we believe that one must be a Jedi to have enough galactic "omph" to warrent such restrictions on their personal lives? I'm just curious...

 

Cloris

[grphiw]

The main platform for those of pro-love for the Jedi appears to be that its passion that leads to the Dark Side, not love. That is an irrefutable point, and I concede on that. BUT, look at the analogy of a stove. Stoves are great: they heat our food, and with a skilled cook can be used to create an infinte number of possibilites of dishes. However, I don't think there is a person on the planet how has used a stove for really cooking, not just boiling a couple of hot dogs because mother wasn't around, that has not been burned at least once. There will always be accidents, sooner or later, and you just have to hope that its later and won't be serious.

 

Now, going from that analogy, love is the stove. It's great, it's fine in a vaccuum. But, there is the risk of something going wrong eventually, and in the case of love that would be a descent to the dark side. So if you want to avoid the whole risk of being burned, stay away from the stove, use the microwave.

[DeathScepter]

Well I do think banning love is Foolish, If Our Militaries can have families, then why cant the Jedi have families?

 

 

The Military's primary function that they are the Defenders(ideally) the resident country they are in.

 

Jedi are the Same way that they are defenders of the Republic

[Plano Skywalker]

while I know that some would balk at it, I personally think an issue like this dovetails well into the idea of Grey Jedi and possibly even an Enclave of Grey Jedi.

 

Grey Jedi reject the more "extreme" teachings of the Jedi Order while seeking to maintain balance and harmony in the Force and do not try to cut themselves off from all emotion. They actually think of themselves at light side but just reject the dogmatic nature of the Jedi Order. Anyway, that is one way Grey Jedi could emerge in the KOTOR universe.

[Darkside]

while I know that some would balk at it, I personally think an issue like this dovetails well into the idea of Grey Jedi and possibly even an Enclave of Grey Jedi.

 

Grey Jedi reject the more "extreme" teachings of the Jedi Order while seeking to maintain balance and harmony in the Force and do not try to cut themselves off from all emotion.  They actually think of themselves at light side but just reject the dogmatic nature of the Jedi Order.  Anyway, that is one way Grey Jedi could emerge in the KOTOR universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

drats! you beat me to it! I was going to suggest that. I always thought that the Jedi Order should teach their padawans to understand and cope with their emotions rather than frobid them altogether. Let's face it, wether they're allowed to or not, people are going to fall in love, get angry, etc. They might as well be prepared for it.

[Panther]

From the 1st time I played this game.. I seen the Exile like a desperate man.. looking for love in any area.. with any woman... let my explain..

 

-The Handmaiden Nice body.. weird personally.. white hair ??

 

-The Exile: Hmmm weird woman.. short white hair..* arggg*.. but hey!! nice body.. hmm lets fight in underwear with her.. and see what happens..

 

 

-Visas Dark side... blind.. exotic character..

 

-The Exile: Hmmm she can't see me... so she don't know I'm a old man... should be easy to manipulate her.. but wait she is a Sith!!! ... oh well who cares... she looks very nice anyway..

 

 

- Miras lots of personality.. aggressive.. and very attractive.

 

- The exile: Ohhh man.. she looks hot!!!... lets just be direct and to the point... * hey Mira .. you want to get personal with me ?.. I'm desperate!!!

[metadigital]

while I know that some would balk at it, I personally think an issue like this dovetails well into the idea of Grey Jedi and possibly even an Enclave of Grey Jedi.

 

Grey Jedi reject the more "extreme" teachings of the Jedi Order while seeking to maintain balance and harmony in the Force and do not try to cut themselves off from all emotion.  They actually think of themselves at light side but just reject the dogmatic nature of the Jedi Order.  Anyway, that is one way Grey Jedi could emerge in the KOTOR universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

drats! you beat me to it! I was going to suggest that. I always thought that the Jedi Order should teach their padawans to understand and cope with their emotions rather than frobid them altogether. Let's face it, wether they're allowed to or not, people are going to fall in love, get angry, etc. They might as well be prepared for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, another cult of the Jedi!

 

Isn't that one of the conclusions of KotOR2, though?

 

With the death / defeat of the last of the Jedi council, the old Jedi teachings have been disproved and discredited. Assuming a LS ending, the next logical phase was the Exile builiding the next Jedi Council from the Jedi companions (and Atris). This would be a perfect time to take advantage of Atris's experiences to modify the Jedi scriptures -- sort of like what the First Council of Nicaea did for Roman Catholicism.

[Plano Skywalker]

I see this as yet more confirmation that GL should not be allowed to comment on anything in the SW universe as he is just not qualified.

 

This represents his attempt to make a clear distinction to enforce the "love = possessive = wrong" leitmotif.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. The monastic connection is there and everyone knows it is there.

 

"Young padawan, where are you going?"

 

"To the brothel, of course"

 

"May the Force be with you"

 

Like that is somehow better than having someone to care about?

No, GL, Jedi=Monks is the corner you have painted yourself into.

[Plano Skywalker]

Yep, another cult of the Jedi!

 

Isn't that one of the conclusions of KotOR2, though?

 

With the death / defeat of the last of the Jedi council, the old Jedi teachings have been disproved and discredited. Assuming a LS ending, the next logical phase was the Exile builiding the next Jedi Council from the Jedi companions (and Atris). This would be a perfect time to take advantage of Atris's experiences to modify the Jedi scriptures -- sort of like what the First Council of Nicaea did for Roman Catholicism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well, I guess they could do that. however, by the time the movies come around, the Order is back to its "no attachments" policy. I personally would love to see different Jedi factions in future KOTOR games. Factions in general make for all kinds of intrigue in an RPG.

 

Grey Jedi (the main catch-all for disenfranchised Jedi)

 

Sisters of Mercy (all women, mostly pacifists, into healing and restoration)

 

Traditionalist Jedi (reject the updated teachings of the Order)

 

Jedi Order (the one based on Coruscant)

 

Angels of Righteousness (a bunch of Jedi Guardians who got kicked out for being

too aggressive)

 

etc, etc.....

[11XHooah]

The love issue would probably be the reason I wouldn't make a good jedi. I agree with Jolee, Jedi should learn how to love instead of avoiding it.

 

Heh, I just thought of something funny. Remember in KOTOR II when the handmaiden asks about love between Jedi, and you can say that falling in love is "pulling a bindo" :D

[Hildegard]

Staying focused, calm and reserved while in love would be a challenge for any jedi, especially because of their responsability as guardians of peace and as the users of the force......A jedi that could control his passions while being in love would make him stronger, mentally and wiser in general.....A jedi that could manage that, would be the strongest example of his ability not to given in to the dark side, because if one could love on one side and stay true to the ideals of the light on the other side would be more resilient towards the temptation of the dark side then any jedi master.....

[metadigital]

... However, by the time the movies come around, the Order is back to its "no attachments" policy.  I personally would love to see different Jedi factions in future KOTOR games.  Factions in general make for all kinds of intrigue in an RPG.

 

Grey Jedi  (the main catch-all for disenfranchised Jedi)

Sisters of Mercy  (all women, mostly pacifists, into healing and restoration)

Traditionalist Jedi (reject the updated teachings of the Order)

Jedi Order (the one based on Coruscant)

Angels of Righteousness (a bunch of Jedi Guardians who got kicked out for being

too aggressive)

 

etc, etc.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not sure about some of your categories (Sisters of Mercy?), but there are certainly plenty of precedents in the world: Franciscan, Benedictine and Cistercian Christian monks, Buddhist, Eastern Orthodox (the tonsured ones), etcetra, etc.

 

That's a prefectly reasonable conclusion for the Jedi, because it parallels what happens to religions after a time; the interpretations bifurcate endlessly until we have everything from Rosicrucians to Roman Catholics, Baptists to Methodists, Russian, Eastern and Armenian Orthodoxes.

[metadigital]

Staying focused, calm and reserved while in love would be a challenge for any jedi, especially because of their responsability as guardians of peace and as the users of the force......A jedi that could control his passions while being in love would make him stronger, mentally and wiser in general.....A jedi that could manage that, would be the strongest example of his ability not to given in to the dark side, because if one could love on one side and stay true to the ideals of the light on the other side would be more resilient towards the temptation of the dark side then any jedi master.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It comes down to risk management.

 

It sounds like the Jedi Council are advocating a "zero-tolerance" policy to Risk Management.

 

There is certainly much to risk, but the actual probability of a Jedi going rogue seems to me (without the dubious benefit of reference to the extensive EU " ) is miniscule when compared to the everyday gain in value provided by the Jedi community by being loving members of society.