Smart people don't believe in god...

[Cantousent]

The thread goes forth unto infinity. One question: did you cite wikipedia as an authority in your thesis?

[random evil guy]

The thread goes forth unto infinity.  One question:  did you cite wikipedia as an authority in your thesis?

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no, i used wikipedia at first to sort of get the big picture. i used different sources in the actual thesis... most of the articles in wikipedia were actually quite good(they were on algebra), but i ended up citing other, a bit more "serious", sources...

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

Thanks, but without your rather biased comments, those aren't really misogynistic quotes. Archaic conceptions of what family roles and aesthetics are, at worst. Using today's standards to judge the past is not a very good way of analyzing history.

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We are not analyzing history, but what Christians say is God's Word. Many Christians state that they believe the Bible is the word of God in its entirety, yet forget that God is an ass.

[Cantousent]

I have to admit that I'll sometimes use the internet to get the big picture on things, especially when I don't know much about the subject.

 

It's clearly one thing to say that Christ might not have existed and quite another to state with certainty that Christ did not exist. For my part, aside from being a Christian, I think the evidence that Christ existed is compelling. I tend to look at the bible in three different ways. It is the bedrock of Christianity and therefore the final word on moral issues. It is also a historical document that should be evaluated and corraborated with other evidence. Finally, it is a masterpiece of world literature, and it should be viewed as such.

 

The bible is a reflexion of the times in which it was written. While I see the bible as a whole as a cogent expression of proper moral thinking, it does not escape me that there are passages that seem contradictory. I could resort to mental gymnastics in an effort to prove that the bible is not contradictory, or I can try to assess the work as a whole and see what it means to me as a Christian. I see this as something quite different from "Cherry picking" passages. I contend that using only those passages to support a personal bias is "Cherry picking." Trying to meld my experiences with scripture into a workable world view is not.

 

When I was in high school, my mother would tell me to do my homework, make friends, obey the rules, have fun, and be a good student. Nothing in the list need contradict anything else on it. Still, what was most important to me was to have fun.

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

Just keep in mind that every myth and legend has a kernel of truth to them.

[Rosbjerg]

Just keep in mind that every myth and legend has a kernel of truth to them.

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but then again .. we will never truely know!

[Atomic Space Vixen]

Finally, it is a masterpiece of world literature, and it should be viewed as such.

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Now we're getting into purely subjective views here, and I'd have to say that without the religious aspects, it wouldn't have stood the test of time as literature. Have you ever tried reading through Numbers? I obviously don't believe it's the Good Book, but I don't even think that it's a particularly good book, but again, that's purely subjective.

[random evil guy]

i agree. tried reading it a few years ago, but it was kind of boring. too much crap. like someone said, numbers is just absolute nonsense...

[WITHTEETH]

I agree that the bible is a masterpeice, much like the book Oddysee(spelling incorrect). a similarity also that the two have in common is that the history in the times they were written atealst oddysee during a dark age. so those books will kind of give a hint in what might have happened and how it was like. ex wars, culture, mood. but of course the books were romantized to keep the reader entertaintained. I beleive there is much wisdom in both books but I will not worship it. I have different morals and views, just because christians and i have different views does not mean either of ours are wrong neccessarily though, even though i get that feeling from alot of them.

[213374U]

We are not analyzing history, but what Christians say is God's Word.  Many Christians state that they believe the Bible is the word of God in its entirety, yet forget that God is an ass.

I was going to write a long, well thought reply, but I'm tired and Eldar pretty much did it for me:

The bible is a reflexion of the times in which it was written.  While I see the bible as a whole as a cogent expression of proper moral thinking, it does not escape me that there are passages that seem contradictory.  I could resort to mental gymnastics in an effort to prove that the bible is not contradictory, or I can try to assess the work as a whole and see what it means to me as a Christian.  I see this as something quite different from "Cherry picking" passages.  I contend that using only those passages to support a personal bias is "Cherry picking."  Trying to meld my experiences with scripture into a workable world view is not.

[Fionavar]

As a translation, the Bible can often seem difficult to appreciate as a literary expression of a faith community's journey. In the Greek and Hebrew, however, the Hebrew Scriptures and the Koine of the New Testament are a vibrant expression of creativity and art. It is always important to realise that every translation - from the academic to the 'vulgate' (if you will) - is a set of compromises that will never fully impart the depth of rhythm and meter, the intense use of rhetoric and the overwhelming efficiency of language that passionately describes the struggles of trying to vision and myth-make who and what God is in history for the Judeo-Christian experience. It is a dangerous precedent to make conclusions as to the literary merit when what one has - albeit an intentional attempt to transmit the original - is merely a shadow of that which is only accessible in the original language. Furthermore, the nuances in the Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew is often glossed over when people are tempted to misrepresent Scripture out of context from not only the socio-historic realities, but the characteristics by which language transmits myth and truth.

[Cantousent]

Fionavar hits it right on the head.

 

I will admit, however, that I willingly cherry pick the particular books I reference as literature. Some are just sets of laws or lineages. Others are quite profound. For example, the book of Job is a classic.

 

Moreover, reading the books in Greek is gratifying. Since most folks don't have the years of life to waste in learning ancient Greek or Hebrew, I would commend Fionavar's suggestion regarding good translations. It's not hard to convey core ideas, but keeping the feel and flow of the original is quite difficult.

 

As a small disclaimer, however, I will urge those of you who are going into the humanities to at least consider a few years of Attic Greek. Koine is even easier and a couple of years will get you started. You might be surprised at how powerful some of the ancient texts are when you read them in the original language.

[Fionavar]

I remember during Grad school while I was struggling with Vergil and the Pastorals and then one day ... I just got it. For the first time the Roman appreciation and ideal of the pastoral life was not academic, I could taste it. The scenes in Gladiator during the imagining of Maximus about his home in Spain (i.e. his Elysium) convey somewhat the Roman mystique of the pastoral life ... the same can be said of the Greek. I remember getting Herodotus for the first time - not as a boring history, but as a vibrant expression of the wonders of the world. I will not bore anyone further about how the NT and OT come alive in the original, needless to say there is indeed a wonder of seeing through the lens of language a people's dreams, mistakes, fears and hopes.

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

Sorry, I don't see it as Cherry Pickings. I have read and studied the Old and New Testement, part of my Minor in Religious Studies, as well as going by my own personal experience with the bugger and I have come to the conclusion that the Judaic-Christian God is an ass.

[213374U]

So, you're a satanist?

[SteveThaiBinh]

And yet the (translated) King James version of the Bible is often presented as a literary masterpiece in its own right. Personally, I never really felt that, though I'm not a great judge of such things.

[Darth Flatus]

Good point the dragon mod brought up about meaning being skewed during translation.

 

As for the veracity of the bible and existence Jesus, does that not come secondary to his actual message?

[SteveThaiBinh]

Of course, this is one reason why we never refer to 'translations' of the Quran, but to 'transliterations'. This is not because of any loss of literary or aesthetic merit, but because the Arabic original is held to be the literal word of God, and a translation therefore has lost too much of the original to be truly valid.

[Darth Flatus]

But there is also loss of meaning due to the linguistic translation from old arabic to modern english

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

So, you're a satanist?

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No, Satan is an even bigger ass.

 

I worship neither.

[Arkendale]

I think that I'd rather believe in the Force than God

[Drakron]

No, Satan is an even bigger ass.

 

I worship neither.

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So you just stick to worship women like we all do?

[FaramirK]

Misogyny and homophobia all in one here...

Romans 1:26 - 1:27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

There may be arguments about "natural use" being misogynistic, but I know I don't feel good being told that my "natural use" is a receptacle for male seed.

 

You must hate the Science of Biology, then. Are you actually arguing that your sexual organs natural use is not to reproduce? Whether or not you decide to have children is your business...but saying that the male/female reproductive organs are not for reproduction is a little silly...

 

Now here's a goody...

1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

 

Context: Church at Corinth wrote Paul asking a specific question about a specific situation, and this is his answer. Taking this as a general rule only shows the ineptitude of the reader.

 

I'm not going to bother answering any more of your complaints against scripture until you start looking at the context.

 

Lastly, Homosexuality is contrary to the moral standard that is set forth in the Bible, true enough. So, if you are indeed Bisexual, you simply choose to reject the Biblical take on life, and choose your own path. You are free to do so in your country and mine, and I wouldn't want it any other way - but don't throw a fit because a religion disagrees with your morality, thats just childish.

[FaramirK]

But a thought is not the same as an action. I hate George W. Bush, but shouldn't be thrown in prison for that.

 

No, you shouldn't be thrown in prision, but you are still sinning.

 

However, you're arguing that Thought Crimes are the equal of actual crimes. Ever read 1984?

 

Yes, and I also had the unpleasent experience of growing up in a country where I was persecuted for the faith of my parents. Humans have no right to punish or attempt to regulate thought like in 1984. But since God made you and is perfect, he can.

 

I disagree, I'm not a sinner and I'm not in rebellion against anyone. Tell me what I have done that deserves eternal torture.

 

Well, disagree with the Bible. As for torture, your idea of hell is probably similar to your idea of a concentration camp, which is not what hell is. No one is going to be poking you with a branding iron. Hell is a place of everlasting separation from God, which you choose to exile yourself too or be saved from. And since all the good things in life (like Love, hope, contentment etc.) are from God, you will experience none of them. You are able to express these on earth only because you were made in God's image. Without God, we are all evil, as bad as Hitler or Stalin.

 

By that logic, a jaywalker is as bad as a murderer. I'm not being facetious here, because that is exactly what you're saying. Remind me to never jaywalk in Texas.

 

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying. Therefore, you can't say you are any better or less guilty than anyone else, and no one can say they are better or less guilty than you.

 

That is just messed up. "I won't show myself, but believe in me or I'll beat you up!"

 

He has shown himself. You just refuse to accept him his way.

 

Hmmm. The fictional sequal to a work of fiction shows that a prophesy in the first came true? Colour me unimpressed.

 

I wouldn't be impressed either, but its non-fiction, so there goes that argument...

[WITHTEETH]

In the Country I live in, the christians want to go backwards and put church and state together again even though when they came here they wanted to be free from the combined forces. Gays here are getting shoved aside and illegalized their right to marry. before the civil rights act it was that they couldn't interracially marry. do you see a pattern? next we are going to pick on the handicap! I say the bible is WRONG in accusing people to of wrong doing just because of where love or lust took them if the 2 people were BOTH old enough and in the state of mind.

 

 

"I dont tolerate Intolerence"