Why think KotORII sucked?

[Oerwinde]

KOTOR I was boring.  However, it had that "Star Wars feel".  KOTOR II was interesting.  But, it did not have that "Star Wars feel", it felt like... something else.  If you put them both together, you'd have a great Star Wars game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It felt like Star Wars to me. The force, Jedi, Lightsabers, Sith Lords, spaceships, yup, Star Wars.

[Darth Kavar]

BTW anybody else found the overuse of the word 'echo' in K2 annoying?

[metadigital]

BTW anybody else found the overuse of the word 'echo' in K2 annoying?

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I found the entire pretence at a philosophical underpinning for the game resulted in philosobabble of such magnitude that they might as well have just put in the directions, thus:

 

 

"And Kreia wants to kill the Force because" <insert some deep-sounding reason here about some magic "Force"< "And there is nothing you can do except go to her " >insert some deep-sounding reason why there is no choice< ... etc

 

[Plano Skywalker]

I found the entire pretence at a philosophical underpinning for the game resulted in philosobabble of such magnitude that they might as well have just put in the directions, thus:

 

 

"And Kreia wants to kill the Force because" <insert some deep-sounding reason here about some magic "Force"< "And there is nothing you can do except go to her " >insert some deep-sounding reason why there is no choice< ... etc

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think part of the reason they had so much philosobabble is because LA would not let them do anything (or much, anyway) to the true story arch....LA was milking the story arch for later and so this one was all about allusions to Revan and some new gameplay features.

 

It is OK to have a cliffhanger but this one did not give us any meat...only lentil soup.

[edu11]

 

But one thing I didn't get was:

 

Did you like KotORII, or didn't you? And which one of the games did you like better?

 

(An thanks for a bit of RPG discussion )

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Loved KotOR2 Best RPG Ive played in last decade.

 

Im an old RPG fan and all the stuff like fallout, FF series, New NWN, Balders Gate, ect never really appealed to me. The KotOR series was a very welcome return to story based RPGs for me (as was JE).

 

My top 3 RPGs (in last 10 years) are:

1) KotOR2

2) KotOR

3) Jade Empire

 

Parts one and two are actually very close in rankings for me, just part 2 gets the nod because it wasnt as predictable, found my group mates more interesting and enjoyable (biggest disappointment in K1 was I couldnt kill Carth, cause lightside or darkside, I was SICK TO DEATH of his never ending whining by the time we hit the planet below the Star Forge), and was slightly larger (with greater replay value) then part 1.

 

JE could have been better then both but Bioware missed the boat by having influence only matter in love stories (other characters stories you learn by just speaking to them often), limit of one party npc traveling with you (rather then the 2 members we have in KotOR series), and game was far to small content wise (as I said, 20 hours to play and that includes watching all the cinematics and listening to the voices)..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i only have two points for you to think:

1) you are actually comparing 2 complete games with one incomplete...

2) i had to drag Bastilla until the end (as DS) instead of slitting her throat for manipulating me. The scenario can not accomodate fully each and every one of us.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"1) you are actually comparing 2 complete games with one incomplete..."

 

And the incomplete one wins - it's gotta be awesome, eh?

[youspoonybard]

To those people who say it was obvious Kreia was the badguy and stuff, way into the game:

 

I've always viewed Kreia as a tragic hero, rather than a badguy. Her combat with you at the end of the game was a tragedy, an inevitable right of passage, not a showdown with evil. She acknowledges so, as well ("And that is why I love you.") Kreia does respect and honor the Exile, as he/she is the one who understands the Force the best out of any individual, according to Kreia. While her "betrayal" at the end of the game did threaten Telos and the galaxy, I do believe Kreia knew you would overcome them, her former pupils with a flawed understanding of reality. After all, Kreia also betrayed the three other bosses by making them seem that they could defeat you, and then they realized that they couldn't. By doing so, and by killing the remaining Jedi leaders, not only did Kreia prevent one side fo the Force from conquering another (and, therefore, putting the galaxy in a much greater threat), she opened the path for a new set of teachings of the Force. Her death at the end of the game rid the galaxy of the old mentors of the Force; all that was left, now, was the Exile and his enlightened view.

 

In summary, Kreia wasn't Malak, an obviously evil being who went around committing evil acts. She is a much more developed character, and I suspect that how much you enjoyed KOTOR2 is highly influenced on how much you appreciated there not being a "Ah Ha Ha Ha Look At Me I'm Evil!" foe, and that they are your main quest in stopping.

 

I loved Kreia. I can't think of another character in a console/PC game that has half the development of Kreia. When she stopped to lecture the Exile, I mulled over what she said, and respected her opinion; at first, for the Influence points, but later, because I actually agree with her.

 

I loved KOTOR2 (Surprised, after reading my post?).

 

Oh, and while I never found combat in KOTOR2 particularly difficult, I never found it hard in KOTOR either; and this was with me saving levels on my first try (my friend told me of the trick before I played), and doing all the sidequests. Perhaps it's because I D&D a lot, and have a very good understanding of the d20 system, but in neither game was combat the reason I played. In KOTOR, with the exception of HK I did not particularly enjoy any of my party members; I usually carried around Jolee because he was the least annoying. In KOTOR2 Influence Points led me, as a player, to try and understand the characters better, to gain the points and the mechanical advantages thereof, but the deeper stories led me to appreciate the characters much more as well. Win/win. I mean, I didn't see Atton's story coming at all, and what a story it was!

 

(Don't think I wasn't talking to my team members in KOTOR; I was. But even as a light sider, Bastilla's "Oh, I might have feelings for you" was really lame, Carth was always moping around [and I didn't appreciate him hitting on me, either, and told him so, which made him mopier], etc. Canderous' war tales were interesting, though, but that's not really character development, more of a war story : ) ).

 

I think KOTOR was a good game. I played it once, then played KOTOR2. I have subsequently played KOTOR2 probably around 10 times now, and cannot think of going back and playing KOTOR again, or in fact, a bunch of similar games.

 

Cheers to you, Obsidian! Now, make NWN2 with similar deeply developed characters, an engrossing storyline (completed as you thought of it), and a faithful adaptation of the core 3.5 ruleset! That would rule.

[ncr]

KOTOR I was boring.  However, it had that "Star Wars feel".  KOTOR II was interesting.  But, it did not have that "Star Wars feel", it felt like... something else.  If you put them both together, you'd have a great Star Wars game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It felt like Star Wars to me. The force, Jedi, Lightsabers, Sith Lords, spaceships, yup, Star Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could have all of those elements in a Final Fantasy game, but if it's morally ambiguous, then it's not Star Wars.

[metadigital]

To those people who say it was obvious Kreia was the badguy and stuff, way into the game:

 

I've always viewed Kreia as a tragic hero, rather than a badguy.  ...

... I think KOTOR was a good game.  I played it once, then played KOTOR2.  I have subsequently played KOTOR2 probably around 10 times now, and cannot think of going back and playing KOTOR again, or in fact, a bunch of similar games. 

 

Cheers to you, Obsidian!  Now, make NWN2 with similar deeply developed characters, an engrossing storyline (completed as you thought of it), and a faithful adaptation of the core 3.5 ruleset!  That would rule.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, no argument from me with Kreia as a deep and interesting character; nor about the combat in both games and its relative importance to the RPG (broadly speaking). What let the game down was the (surpirse!) unfinished parts. It only takes a few negative results to discourage you from trying new things.

 

And the strict linearity of the narrative was very disapointing. There really is no point in playing after the

Dantooine confrontation

, as all of the events are strictly in order and invariable -- regardless of your alignment and choices.

 

So, yes! more deep characters; but, no -- don't forget the bread for the sandwich: make the game mechanics sound and have multiple paths and (severe) consequences for different choices.

[Oerwinde]

KOTOR I was boring.  However, it had that "Star Wars feel".  KOTOR II was interesting.  But, it did not have that "Star Wars feel", it felt like... something else.  If you put them both together, you'd have a great Star Wars game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It felt like Star Wars to me. The force, Jedi, Lightsabers, Sith Lords, spaceships, yup, Star Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could have all of those elements in a Final Fantasy game, but if it's morally ambiguous, then it's not Star Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think if a Final Fantasy game had the force, Jedi, Lightsabers, and Sith Lords, they'd get their asses sued by LucasFilm. Why are you so upset that the writing didn't suck? Why does it have to be childish black and white for you to accept it as Star Wars, when most people have no problem accepting good writing?

[ncr]

Yes, but at least the story would be better than anything Chris Avellone could come up with.

[Nartwak]

Hey, Oerwinde...

 

I'm telling you...

 

[Kalfear]

i only have two points for you to think:

1) you are actually comparing 2 complete games with one incomplete...

2) i had to drag Bastilla until the end (as DS) instead of slitting her throat for manipulating me. The scenario can not accomodate fully each and every one of us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1) Sure am comparing them and heres why.

 

1a) First off KotOR2 was a set up for KotOR3. I understand this basic and obvious fact so KotOR2 never felt incomplete to me (or no worse then K1 anyways). Sure I didnt care for the ending of K2, but I just took it as a "to be continued" ending. Heck movies have done it before (remember Back to the Future 2?), so why cant a video game?

 

1b) If your refering to content being incomplete. Well content was missing, but the content in the game was completed enough that it didnt feel incomplete. Both K1 and K2 endings (not the cinematics but ending...for K1 it was Star Forge, for K2 it was MalacorV) left me somewhat unsatisfied as BOTH games were to short in ending content (Frankly, K2 was at least twice the size of the Star Forge anyways).

 

1c) Lets see, I know, NPC party characters. Do I know (before K2) what happened to Carth? Bastila? HK? T3? Jolee? ect ect ect after K1 ended. Hmmm nope, dont know a dang thing about them. BUT, now that I think about it, I have some idea on what happens to my group mates from K2 (other then Bao and the droids). WOW, seems K2 was MORE completed then part 1 now I think about it.

 

1d) Hmm maybe you mean bugs? I had more bugs in K1 then I had in K2. JE was better then both where game bugs are concerned. But JE only has 20 hours of playable material and limited replay value, so JE left me unfullfilled by a larger percentage then K1 or K2 did.

 

As for your second point, I have no clue what your trying to say so you can repost in actual english or deside to drop it.

 

Closeing: I liked K2 more. Why? Because it was the better game (even with content cut out of it). I loved JE and K1 as well but both games are SO FREAKING Linear its enough top drive you insane. There is plenty from K1 and JE that wasnt answered or left me with a feeling of incompleteness. Frankly Im tired of hearing Bioware fanbois bash K2 for the sake of bashing it. K2 wasnt half as bad as many posters made it out to be here and was a far cry better then other crap out there currently disguised as cRPGs.

 

Yes K2 had its share of problems, but all in all, its still a more enjoyable, more adult orientated, and NOT as predictable as KotOR1 or JE was.

[Oerwinde]

Hey, Oerwinde...

 

I'm telling you...

 

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How do you add people to ignore on this, ncr's trolling/ignorance is too hard for me to ignore.

[Nartwak]

Click on his user name, then click on Ignore User.

[Oerwinde]

Geez... how did I miss that.

[grayjo]

I liked both kotors. I prefered the original though, but am definetly not as fanatical about RPGs as most people here. Don;t get me wrong, rpgs are the greatest, there should be more. But i never played through kotor1 more than 2 or so times, and i can't seem to bring myself back to my second go at k2.

 

But I prefered K1. not are any tangiable reason, they are both worth games, but K1 supplied a "suspension of disbelief." I didn't feel like it was a game, but a story that I was a part of. K2 had an ok story, but it wasn't as immersive as K1's story IMO. I think half the problem was the Influence. Great idea, but the way it wa implememted slammed home that it was a game, continually reminding you with "Influence gained" or "Influence lost" or "Influence failure". It would have been better imo if they had left the feedback messages out, and have different initial responses thet reflect how they feel towards you.

 

Anyway I digress. K2 didn't suck, but it had the potential to be so much more.

[Sir Fink]

BTW anybody else found the overuse of the word 'echo' in K2 annoying?

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I don't know about annoying, but made me wonder. It was all over the place like they were hinting at something. Maybe it will be relevent in KOTORIII.

[MTJ]

BTW anybody else found the overuse of the word 'echo' in K2 annoying?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know about annoying, but made me wonder. It was all over the place like they were hinting at something. Maybe it will be relevent in KOTORIII.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The echo was refering how your character pretty much created the dark side temption place on Malachor

[Drakron]

No, it means echo the same way as pebbles in a water create circles.

 

And it was overused (made me want several writters doing the dialogue) since it end up making Kreia BS looked to be the truth as it was nothing but BS.

[Yann]

the entire echo thing was the main plot point lol

 

shows what a success the storyline was when half the people playing it have no idea

[Darth Kavar]

the entire echo thing was the main plot point lol

 

shows what a success the storyline was when half the people playing it have no idea

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I understood was that the Exile was a wound in the force (a void creating force bonds and drains force from others which if I understand right could mean that he can get more power the more force bonds he creates and if someone of this bond dies it creates another wound and so on and that would create more and more wounds making the force vanish).

(yeah I know -> Kreia could do a drain life on me but it probably means she used another Ancient Technique against which there is no defense and makes K2 look like DBZ)

 

The bigger problem for me was the whole echo thing because it was very complicated plus they didn't even try to explain it the MatrixII-Architect-Wise way. They just used the same word all over again. Like Tobin, Zez-Kai-Ell, Visas, the Handmaiden and Kreia all used some telepathic-conspiracy to use the same words to explain the echo thing.

 

(yeah sth like "real ugly, real quick" by Mira and shortly after Atton says the same thing though they were about 300m from eachother and in different sittuations)

 

"Malachor echoes within the Exile" what the hell does that mean? That I have a DS power ping-ponging inside me or that I've created some weird nostalgia to Malachor?

[ncr]

Hey, Oerwinde...

 

I'm telling you...

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How do you add people to ignore on this, ncr's trolling/ignorance is too hard for me to ignore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"WAH WAH! I WANT MY PACIFIER!" Grow up Oerwinde. Not everyone is going to agree with your opinions.

[Kor Qel Droma]

Not everyone is going to post crap all the time either...

[ncr]

Not everyone is going to post crap all the time either...

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Oooh good one.