KoToR 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[Plano Skywalker]

I don't agree for several reasons.

 

First of all, while making KotOR3 bigger and larger sounds great, it will require a lot more programming etc. from whoever gets to develop it, and while I'd like that, it's just not realistic to expect it.

 

Besides, given the choice between consistent story and bigger landscapes to explore, I'd go with the plot every time. Exploring huge areas on many planets isn't nearly as important as a fulfilling storyline with a good flow toward the resolution.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just to clarify, I do not want this to turn into an action game, either. If they cannot make these enhancements without sacrficing the story and the dialogue, etc, then I also would be against it.

 

But I am not talking about making this Morrowind. Not every planet needs to have a long-distance quest and not every planet needs to have 2 cities instead of one, etc.

 

As far as dogfighting goes, I would rather see more explorable terrain than dogfighting if I had to choose.

 

Truely, these games are fairily linear and that is one of their strengths.

[kalimeeri]

First of all, while making KotOR3 bigger and larger sounds great, it will require a lot more programming etc. from whoever gets to develop it, and while I'd like that, it's just not realistic to expect it.

 

Besides, given the choice between consistent story and bigger landscapes to explore, I'd go with the plot every time. Exploring huge areas on many planets isn't nearly as important as a fulfilling storyline with a good flow toward the resolution.

 

What you suggests sounds a lot like a mix between Jedi Academy and X-wing to me. Those are great games, but they're just not KotOR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I totally agree--the story is the central focus, the most important part. I've seen wonderful storylines fall into ruin because of the 'need' to make a new engine work, or because the game tried to encompass too much 'action' just to please the killers among us.

 

The K1/K2 engine is showing its age and its limitations have been pushed, that's true. But it is an elegant thing, especially in K2's character movements. Newer is not always better. New bugs WILL be introduced.

 

Personally, I don't really care if K3 is a 2d sidescroller, as long as they do the story and the characters up right. A new planet or two, okay, but grounding in the known universe is essential. Action/fighting elements need to be there, but in an appropriate mixture to maintain the focus on plot. Bioware had this right, as did Obsidian until time ran out. And either one of these dev's has my vote for K3. I'd definitely think twice about others.

 

Anyone who watches the progression of the first two games can see the direction a conclusion needs to take. But whatever dev is chosen, I certainly hope they are up to the task. This storyline is a gem among the rocks; I'd hate to see it destroyed.

[HK-47 MK II]

How about using "extreme programming" for coding?

[Grand_Commander13]

For the love of GOD take out the Burst of Speed force power! No... Wait... Better yet, leave it in, but make it only give +2 defense, and the speed (I want to use it to run around). Really, I'm sick and tired of having one skill that doubles my damage-dealing capability, AND makes me harder to hit. It's the only essential power (Heal is danged good, but there ARE medpacks).

 

Re-working the dual-wielding system would be nice... Actually, all you'd really need to do would be give a -4/-3/-2/-1 defense (no TWF, all the way to Master TWF) when dual-wielding, and I guess it would be okay.

 

Since you're taking out Speed, make the player gain attacks DnD style (one for every five base attack bonus over +1), but without the bonus attacks being at a penalty. And make it so the BaB progression is 1, .75, and .5 for Guardian, Sentinel, and Consular (or .75 for Sentinel/Consular if you must).

[Jediphile]

I've seen wonderful storylines fall into ruin because of the 'need' to make a new engine work, or because the game tried to encompass too much 'action' just to please the killers among us. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Definitely a classic danger to avoid for story-driven games.

 

Personally, I don't really care if K3 is a 2d sidescroller, as long as they do the story and the characters up right.  A new planet or two, okay, but grounding in the known universe is essential.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, yes and no. While I certainly feel the game should begin its plot in the established parts of the Star Wars galaxy, I also feel that the significance of confronting the true Sith must inevitably bring the plot to worlds outside the known universe. After all, both Revan and the Exile have gone to the unknown regions, so the third game must do the same. If done right that certainly doesn't need to be a bad thing, though. I'd set the first part of the story among some of the more established planet and then move to the unknown Sith empire when going closer to the finale.

 

Action/fighting elements need to be there, but in an appropriate mixture to maintain the focus on plot.  Bioware had this right, as did Obsidian until time ran out.  And either one of these dev's has my vote for K3.  I'd definitely think twice about others.

 

Anyone who watches the progression of the first two games can see the direction a conclusion needs to take.  But whatever dev is chosen, I certainly hope they are up to the task.  This storyline is a gem among the rocks; I'd hate to see it destroyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We're definitely on the same page.

[Mc Bane]

TWF needs do be balanced out. No-one unless they are going for roleplay uses a single lightsabre, which is a shame. Both roots need to be viable. As someone said, gaining attacks with massive BaB could be a good way.

[Plano Skywalker]

I totally agree--the story is the central focus, the most important part.  I've seen wonderful storylines fall into ruin because of the 'need' to make a new engine work, or because the game tried to encompass too much 'action' just to please the killers among us. 

 

The K1/K2 engine is showing its age and its limitations have been pushed, that's true.  But it is an elegant thing, especially in K2's character movements.  Newer is not always better.  New bugs WILL be introduced.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I personally agree. We "hardcore" story-oriented roleplayers would be just fine with the current engine.

 

The problem is that the industry is right in the middle of the Console Wars and both KOTOR games thus far have been console first. Generally speaking, consoles are all about "hey, check out these new graphics, AI, etc". Hopefully they can appeal to both markets and not neglect either one.

[Plano Skywalker]

TWF needs do be balanced out. No-one unless they are going for roleplay uses a single lightsabre, which is a shame. Both roots need to be viable. As someone said, gaining attacks with massive BaB could be a good way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

actually, I think there is a benefit to going single sabre. If you max out on the *dueling* feat, you will have attack and defense bonuses that no other combo has, if I am not mistaken.

[Grand_Commander13]

actually, I think there is a benefit to going single sabre.  If you max out on the *dueling* feat, you will have attack and defense bonuses that no other combo has, if I am not mistaken.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, yeah, Dueling has the defense bonus. However, it has the twin disadvantages of fewer saber crystals (as opposed to dual-wield) or less raw damage per swing (versus double-bladed), and one less attack on both. Versus a Master Speeded dual-wielder, you're doing 75% their attacks when not Flurrying, and 80% when Flurrying. It's not a HUGE travesty, but I think giving maybe a -1 defense to a Master TWFer (to be removed by the expert TWF of the Weapon Master) would be good. Maybe make all the TWF things have an additional -1/-1, so MWTF is -3/-3... I dunno... Is that taking it too far?

 

The idea would be to make TWF hard to learn to do, but devestating when learned fully. Maybe give the weapon masters and marauders a two special awesome lightsaber forms, one which can only be used when dual-wielding, and another that can only be used when using a double-bladed. I'm just tossing out ideas, really.

 

Also, we need force-based feats. As things stand now, the only thing stopping my Consular from being as good a saber-fighter as my Guardian (aside from the mod I installed that drops Consular's BaB to .5) is HP, and a lower feat count. However, my Consular has no real choice but to get feats that help him fight, since nothing helps him with his powers. Make a feat chain that is like force focus, and give Sith Lord/Jedi Master a "Prestige Force Focus." That way, the consular can get up to +9 to their DCs. Nice. Plus a few feats that improve your abilities to use the force, and that'd be fun.

[Saber Rider]

There are lots of great ideas in this thread and, eventhough I've read most of the old threads I might repeat somthings that were mentioned previously. So here we go.

 

I'll start of with gameplay stuff first:

 

1) The whole leveling system should be revised! Eventhough it was good, I felt you were leveling up much to fast and easy. I mean it was okay since the stories had PCs that were powerful Jedis before, but considering that even Anakin Skywalker had more than 10 years of training before he was moved up from beeing a padawan to a knight, makes the short amount of time needed in KOTOR II to become a master more than ridiculous.

The way I see it, the game should be divided in to three parts (padawan, knight, master), each of wich should start at level 1. This would not only be more realistic, but would also allow for time jumps (start as a child/teenager and mature into an adult)

 

2) More and especialy bigger Planets. I realy hope that those artificial boundries that keep you from venturing of the pre-planed paths are getting kicked out with the new engine. This was in part one of the reasons, mostly if not in a city, that you just had to walk of all of the area in order to find all the side quests. There should realy be more discovering going on this time around.

I go along with most of the Planets mentioned in previous posts. The ones I think would realy make for some interesting exploring are Corusant, Corellia, and maybe Naboo but I'm open to almost anything on that account.

 

3) I realy liked the Idea of riding swoop Bikes and Speeders on the planet surface if that would be possible with the new engine. Not as a real big action element, but much more as a possibility of using the loads of money for something useful like bying/renting these kind of htings.

 

4) Improve on the minigames! I realy thought the swoopraces in KOTOR I were realy cool but instead of adding those stupid jumps in part II, I would have wished for other racers and a winding circuit. If thats not possible due to engine isues, I think at least the possibility of tuning your swoop (which you should have to buy) using your mechanical skills and parts you can find/buy would be lots of fun.

The card game could also use some thoughts, there was just to much luck involved in that. I was thinking more like the game in Final Fantasy 8, but if that wouzld be to much of a change, being able to use your force skills would make it a lot more fun (and could result in some real western like bar fights).

 

5) Fighting: I thought the adition of the different fighting styles was probably one of the best changes made, but to elaborate on that idea you should be able to alocate ability points to those skills (making your Jedi mor of an individual). Another good way to anhance this would be to take the people that teach those advanced skills out of the direct story line and make at least some of them hard to find bonus features.

 

6) If at all possibly, PLEASE dish out an editor like for NWN. That was about the coolest tool ever in any game and has completely made up for the crapy story of that game.

 

Now for the storyline:

 

1) Start with a whole new charakter! Preferably a child/teenager (see gameplay #1) so the development of your character and especialy his history is not as predetermined.

 

2) The companions should be new as well! Sure the droids could still remain but the others have already advanced in rank to much that it just wouldn't make any sense to have them reapear as part of your party. But they should certainly make a come back as part of the Jedi council (I'm thinking of Bastilla and all of the forcesensitive characters of TSL) or as villains (Revan and the Exile) or anything else you can think of. They were too well developed to just drop them.

 

3) Although I liked the fact of you having influence on your party member they should have a little more personality. I mean they should leave/not join your party if your allignment differs to much from their own (I'm thinking of the way it was in Baldurs Gate 1/2), or maybe try to influence you like the old hag did in TSL. This would even icrease the replay value of the game! The companions should also have quests of their own interest and engage in conversations more frequently again like they did in part I .

 

4) Keep the quality of the story! The one thing that made KOTOR I the best RPG ever was the fact that it had the most compelling story I have ever encountered in a game. Any loss in quality and depth like in TSL will overshadow any improvements that could possibly be made.

 

Well I guess that's it for now. It turned out to be quite a long post so thanks to everyone who took the time to read it. I still have some thoughts left but I'll just add them some other time.

[Kalfear]

Just a quick reply to sabre regarding riding swoops over land.

 

It might sound cool but it really hurts a game.

 

Many older players of SWG feel that game really deminished with the introduction of swoop bikes (even though they cheered when it was added thinking it a great idea) because the actual effect on game was it made the planets seem 1/100 the size of what they use to be.

 

With KotOR games having such small areas to begin with, this would really hurt its over all feel and atmosphere.

[jotabe1789]

man... if kotor had an editor... you could actually remake the movies kotor-like! lol :D

[Saber Rider]

Just a quick reply to sabre regarding riding swoops over land.

 

It might sound cool but it really hurts a game.

 

Many older players of SWG feel that game really deminished with the introduction of swoop bikes (even though they cheered when it was added thinking it a great idea) because the actual effect on game was it made the planets seem 1/100 the size of what they use to be.

 

With KotOR games having such small areas to begin with, this would really hurt its over all feel and atmosphere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Absolutely true, the planets would be traveled much faster! But that was sort of my thought. I was considering swoops only if the area restrictions were to be removed, wich I truely think will happen, as an alterate means of travel. It's just not very up-to-date to have those kinds of restrictet areas in a RPG thes days. And on an other thought I really don't think it would be a question of age, I mean I wasn't talking about turnig the game into an Action Adventure of any kind. Swoop bikes would just make an interesting side aspect, that's all! But in the end if the story holds up to the previous standard I could do with out that gimmik any day.

 

By the way, even though I'm probably not one of the older players, I would consider myself (27) out of the action driven age. I basicaly only play non-action

RPGs, but still a little action now and then will hopefully keep artheritis out of my joints for a few more years!

[Saber Rider]

man... if kotor had an editor... you could actually remake the movies kotor-like! lol :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Seriously dude, that would so ROCK MY SOCKS OF!!! (w00t) And if Obsidian actually does this game, and considering their expirience with NWN 2, that IS my biggest hope. (plus everything else I mentioned! " )

[jwhitt]

My idea for KOTOR 3, which should wrap up this storyline before moving on to another storyline for a Star Wars RPG (how about Knights of the New Republic).

 

Anways my overview....(dependent on Revan and Exile being LS males)

 

It's been 30 years since the events of KOTOR, and it has been a time of prosperity. The Republic reconstruction efforts from the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War for the most part, have been a success. The Jedi Order has been rebuilt, thanks in large part to Bastila and the Lost Jedi (Atton, Handmaiden, Mira, and Bao-Dur).

 

However, a Republic Admiral, upset that the reconstruction effort of his outer rim homeworld has not gone well, decides to stage a revolution. This Admiral, along with most of his fleet (considering the Republic has multiple fleets), commits a successful coup-de-tat and declares himself the ruler of his homeworld. Surrounding systems soon pledge their loyalty and the Republic is on the brink of a Civil War.

 

You play a Padawan learner, and the game starts out with you and your Jedi Master meeting with the Admiral to discuss a possible peace. However, the Admiral uses this opportunity to launch a surprise attack on the Republic.

 

(This tutorial level will involve yourself fighting your way off a Republic ship, kind of like the opening scenes of The Phantom Menace).

 

After making it back to Coruscant by the skin of your teeth, you then learn of the disappearance of numerous freighters and lone Republic capital ships being attacked by phantom ships out on the Outer Rim. The Senate requests that the Jedi Order helps in the investigation. You go to a couple systems and conduct investigations, and finally learn where the attacks seem to be coming from, the Unknown Regions.

 

After traveling to the coordinates, you discover a damaged Ebon Hawk with Revan and the Exile on board.

 

(At this point, player would then "create" Revan and the Exile and would also get to play as them at certain parts of the game. Revan and the Exile will mostly be in the background, but will play a key role in the game towards the end.)

 

After finding Revan and the Exile, Revan tells you of the origins of the attack...the true Sith Empire are preparing to invade the Republic and that you must warn the Republic.

 

By the time you reach Coruscant, it's too late. The Sith Empire launches their attack........with the help of our rebellious Republic Admiral.

 

Rest of the game is going from place to place, helping to preserve the Republic, culminating in a final battle at Coruscant .

 

(During the war, we'll have Mira get killed, fulfilling Kreia's promise of her sacrificing her life. Also, your Jedi Master will get killed by the Sith leader at some point).

--------------------------------------

Yes it's action oriented, but it's a war to decide the fate of the Republic. I personally believe this is about the only way you can wrap up the storylines involving Revan and the Exile.

[Saber Rider]

@ jwhitt:

 

I don't get the point where you and lots of others feel that the stories of Revan and the Exile were linked that much that the story needs to be "wraped up"?! Sure, the story of the exile kind of had an open ending but please, there is seriously no need to bring these two out of retirement to be playable characters again. I mean of course both of them should have a vital part in the history of the future game, but realisticly I feel that sending characters of into "unknown regions" at the end of a game is just a polite way to cut them out of the game. <_<

 

Please don't get me wrong I realy liked the story you came up with but I just can't see it beeing fun and most of all surprisingly new to play. I know Star Wars kind of dosn't hold real surprises any ways (always good vs. evil/jedi vs. sith), but draging out fully explored characters is just plain boring. But your story would have rocked for KOTOR II as for realy continuing a strong story.

[Plano Skywalker]

Just a quick reply to sabre regarding riding swoops over land.

 

It might sound cool but it really hurts a game.

 

Many older players of SWG feel that game really deminished with the introduction of swoop bikes (even though they cheered when it was added thinking it a great idea) because the actual effect on game was it made the planets seem 1/100 the size of what they use to be.

 

With KotOR games having such small areas to begin with, this would really hurt its over all feel and atmosphere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kalfear,

 

I agree that having Swoop Bike travel on some planets but not others could adversely affect the overall "feel" of the worlds that do not have it.

 

However, I think there are other things that could be done to compensate. For instance, you could have some worlds that have a land speeder shuttle service--kind of like the Stilt Strider in Morrowind. You don't actually watch the travel, the screen fades out and you are already at the other city, etc.

 

That sort of thing could be used on the worlds that don't have bike quests.

[Kalfear]

Just a quick reply to sabre regarding riding swoops over land.

 

It might sound cool but it really hurts a game.

 

Many older players of SWG feel that game really deminished with the introduction of swoop bikes (even though they cheered when it was added thinking it a great idea) because the actual effect on game was it made the planets seem 1/100 the size of what they use to be.

 

With KotOR games having such small areas to begin with, this would really hurt its over all feel and atmosphere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kalfear,

 

I agree that having Swoop Bike travel on some planets but not others could adversely affect the overall "feel" of the worlds that do not have it.

 

However, I think there are other things that could be done to compensate. For instance, you could have some worlds that have a land speeder shuttle service--kind of like the Stilt Strider in Morrowind. You don't actually watch the travel, the screen fades out and you are already at the other city, etc.

 

That sort of thing could be used on the worlds that don't have bike quests.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh that would be fine, but I got the impression for other post that the poster wanted a speeder to ride in around the lands.

 

Im fine with quick travel (return to Ebon Hawk, build the speeder in nar shaddar, module transporters in Taris, ect) but actually getting into a speeder and controling it as you zone around is detremental to feel of game is all im saying

[Kalfear]

Just a quick reply to sabre regarding riding swoops over land.

 

It might sound cool but it really hurts a game.

 

Many older players of SWG feel that game really deminished with the introduction of swoop bikes (even though they cheered when it was added thinking it a great idea) because the actual effect on game was it made the planets seem 1/100 the size of what they use to be.

 

With KotOR games having such small areas to begin with, this would really hurt its over all feel and atmosphere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Absolutely true, the planets would be traveled much faster! But that was sort of my thought. I was considering swoops only if the area restrictions were to be removed, wich I truely think will happen, as an alterate means of travel. It's just not very up-to-date to have those kinds of restrictet areas in a RPG thes days. And on an other thought I really don't think it would be a question of age, I mean I wasn't talking about turnig the game into an Action Adventure of any kind. Swoop bikes would just make an interesting side aspect, that's all! But in the end if the story holds up to the previous standard I could do with out that gimmik any day.

 

By the way, even though I'm probably not one of the older players, I would consider myself (27) out of the action driven age. I basicaly only play non-action

RPGs, but still a little action now and then will hopefully keep artheritis out of my joints for a few more years!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

heheh Saber, by older I meant SWG players that started SWG when game hit retail. Swoop bikes were added 1 year after SWG was in retail in that game.

 

So for the first year players had to rely on stationary shuttles or walking. Many of those players complained after swoops were introduced as suddenly crossing a world took 10 minutes rather then the previous 50-60 minutes (if walking), making the the worlds seem alot smaller then they were entended as. Also planitary shuttles (from city to city on same planet) became rarely used (which since SWG is a MMORPG meant citys also became ghost towns, a place to throw up a house and leave). Swoops really effected the ambeaunce (sp?) of the game negatively.

 

Wasnt a reference to player age

 

I thought your post was very well written and showed a maturity that some players lack online (regardless if they are 15 or 80 years old in real world).

[edu11]

i don't think i'd like a new character in K3. I think that 3 super-powerful force users is a little too much.

[Saber Rider]

@ Kalfear:

 

Seems like were realy on the same page here! I do remember the problems in SWG (I was playing as soon as it came out in europe). Eventhough the Swoop travel kind of didn't bother me that much, the deserted cities realy killed the feel of the game. I eventually quit because the whole thing about becoming a Jedi kind of anoyed me (I almost played for a year and still no FS slot).

 

Question: Do you still play?! How is the feel of the game now? I've read some real bad suff about there being too many jedi and them harvesting everything? I was thinking of starting again as soon as ROTW is released.

 

But back to the topic! I think Plano's idea could be the way to go, to be honest I wasn't thinking in that direction but it would certainly be a compromise I can agree to.

 

@ edu11:

 

I don't feel the Exile was a "super-powerful" force user unlike Revan, but has isolated himself from the force on his own free will, which made him special because it has never been done before.

On the other Hand aren't all force users sort of superpowered? But I think since it's a game, everybody sort of wants to be the hero or thew guy/girl that kicks the sith/jedi masters butt in the end!

[Plano Skywalker]

Eventhough the Swoop travel kind of didn't bother me that much, the deserted cities realy killed the feel of the game. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

right. I would argue that there is a much different dynamic at work in the KOTOR games than in an MMORPG. The KOTOR games are very linear and trigger-based. So, I don't think the swoop bikes would really cause the same kind of trouble as in an MMORPG, especially if only a couple of worlds gave you the trigger to use them.

[kalimeeri]

Well, yes and no. While I certainly feel the game should begin its plot in the established parts of the Star Wars galaxy, I also feel that the significance of confronting the true Sith must inevitably bring the plot to worlds outside the known universe. After all, both Revan and the Exile have gone to the unknown regions, so the third game must do the same. If done right that certainly doesn't need to be a bad thing, though. I'd set the first part of the story among some of the more established planet and then move to the unknown Sith empire when going closer to the finale.

 

That's a possibility that would work. But so would the reverse. Start in the Unknown Regions, and return to known space. If the Sith are in hot pursuit of our PCs and their party(ies), there is the possibility of an epic space battle to wrap it all up, bringing Canderous' and Carth's forces to bear. I'd love to see the Mandalorians redeem themselves, and Exile's fledgling Jedi order band together.

[stoo]

For Yoda' sake, release it on DVD.

 

-my 2 cents-

[bubblyofart]

For Yoda' sake, release it on DVD.

 

-my 2 cents-

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lol, ain't that the truth, I'm getting a bit sick of having to continuly change discs when installing. But first things first, they actually got to make the game, and a decent 1 at that.