Another end-game cut-plot stuff thread

[Cathari]

Yeah, yeah - I know it's a bit of a repeat of earlier threads - but I just wanted to rehash it because there are some things which I uncovered which I didn't see mentioned in other threads (or maybe I just missed them).

 

I'll focus specifically on what was meant to happen in the "good" ending, since this seems to be the most fleshed out ending in the dialog file.

 

So where is Bao-Dur at the end? If we use a save-game editor we see that he's not even available in the save-game files for the final sequence at Malachor V, which pretty much means that he's dead. The dialog file would seem to indicate that Bao-Dur sacrificed himself attempting to do something to fix up the accidental result of the Mass Shadow Generator - I could only guess that he died just after finalising some part of the sequence - but after having done enough that all the Remote needed to do was to activate the generators from the 4 ships. The dialog file makes explicit mention that Malachor should have broken apart and been totally destroyed when the original MSG fired, but something went wrong, and that the planet is really just 3 planetoids somehow still being held together by the bizarre gravtional fields unique to Malachor V. Now in the good ending when the ship flies off we can see the remnants of Malachor splitting into 3 separate pieces just before the camera pans away, so presumably that scene occurs after the Exile giving the order to fire the MSG again, thereby destroying Malachor V finally.

 

Now we see the bit where Goto intercepts the Remote in the game, but after that Goto gets ambushed by HK-47, Goto calls in his HK-50 droids, because apparantly Goto is the one who arranged for them to be created in the first place, but is guzzumped when the HK-50's recognise and treat HK-47 as one of them, thereby not allowing them to kill HK-47 due to their self-preservation routines. Goto pretty much mentions that this is an unfortunate over-sight on his behalf, then gets blasted by HK-47. HK-47 knows that the Remote is still in the ship remnant and taunts the Remote to come out, but Remote eludes him, presumably to then later return and fire the MSG. One could speculate here that there would have been an exciting cut-scene where when the Exile gives the order to be fired, that the Remote makes a dash for the console, HK-47 hot on his tail, and just as HK-47 lines up Remote to blast him, Remote activates the MSG.

 

In the dialog file, it's sort of evident that Mira was meant to fight Hanharr before the Exile even wakes up and starts the trek from the broken Ebon Hawk down to the Trayus Acadamy. Mira (good exile) defeats Hanharr, walks pretty much unchallenged into the Academy, and confronts Kreia. Kreia remarks something about Mira walking in all alone, and then Handmaiden, Atton, and Visas wander in saying that Mira is not all alone. Kreia makes mention as she looks at the pseduo-Jedi gathered, and she says "Well, let's see what the result of the Exile's teachings have wrought." Kreia then proceeds to kick each of their butts in turn with Force Crush, but curiously the dialog file never makes mention of her specifically dealing with Atton, that honor appears goes to Sion who "gets" to deal with Atton personally, one would presume in the now very famous cut-scene where Atton gets mangled by Sion, only to be found later by the Exile.

 

In the game Kreia mentions that the Exile has a choice to face when the Exile first enters the Academy. In the game the player is faced with a "hostile" who doesn't attack, so I guess that's the "cut" replacement choice. In the dialog file, Kreia goes on to say that the choice is meant to be one of the player choosing to come directly to confront Kreia/Sion, or having to divert to rescue the Exile's friends, thereby weakening the Exile. In the game maps if one hugs the outer walls of the east crescant, we can clearly see the map pointer tags behind doors that cannot be opened locating the prison cells where the Exile's allies would presumably be kept.

 

There's still the whole Atton death thing to contend with, but it appears that the player was meant to have the time to heal Atton if the player went to save him first (by not going to Kreia directly) thereby granting the "happy-end" Atton ending, or if the Exile does go to Kreia directly, then the Exile arrives at the prison cells too late after the confrontation with Kreia. The Exile's friends are all dead, and Atton is left there, irreparably near-death with the Atton death-scene comments.

 

There's also meant to be a touching parting scene where Visas says good-bye to the Exile, with whom Visas is obviously in love with (assuming the Exile is male). Exile explains that the Exile has to head off to go help Revan, and the Exile appears to have a number of other convserational topics where the Exile instructs his remaining allies to prepare and wait for him, and to show others the way to go beyond the Rim and fight the war against the Sith.

 

What I don't understand is that all of this would still tie in well with a Kotor3, with the Exile heading off after Revan, leaving the previous NPC's behind, just as is what is implied in the "cut" ending of the game.

 

In other words, I'm seriously struggling to understand why all of this was cut out.

 

Thanks for hearing the rant. If anyone has anything else to add to expand on what the ending should have been, then I'd like to hear it.

 

If you want to moan that it's all been said before, then just ignore my post and don't bother complaining and let this thread die.

[Silvershadow]

Honestly, I must admit, I've read many, many, MANY cut ending threads, and not ONE of them actually managed to make me understand what the REAL ending was meant to be in a story context before. I mean, yes, I knew that Atton died, I knew that everybody went to face Kreia, blah blah blah, but I didn't really understand how all the scenes actually worked together.

 

The one part that I still don't really get is why everybody seemed to think the Exile was dead, and thus decided to go face Kreia.

 

This is awesome... I didn't realize they had actually planned a way to save Atton from that death scene.

[Starphire]

I don't know. I'm uncertain Bao-Dur was intended to die. It's true that he's unavailable, and Kreia seems to avoid talking about him when she goes through her infamous "future speech", but if you choose the right path, she'll admit his future and that of the droids is uncertain. (Which should be no surprise, as she's never been able to penetrate the barrier of his mind.) The admission would just be really... odd... if he were already dead.

 

I think the more likely explanation is that he's simply stuck repairing the seriously damaged ship. It would explain why the Ebon Hawk is suddenly able to zip away to a bright new future (in the LS ending) after the incredibly rough landing on M5.

[Cathari]

I don't know.  I'm uncertain Bao-Dur was intended to die.  It's true that he's unavailable, and Kreia seems to avoid talking about him when she goes through her infamous "future speech", but if you choose the right path, she'll admit his future and that of the droids is uncertain.  (Which should be no surprise, as she's never been able to penetrate the barrier of his mind.)  The admission would just be really... odd... if he were already dead.

 

I think the more likely explanation is that he's simply stuck repairing the seriously damaged ship.  It would explain why the Ebon Hawk is suddenly able to zip away to a bright new future (in the LS ending) after the incredibly rough landing on M5.

 

The thing is though is that he's not even present in the Save Game file for Malachor V, whereas everyone else is. At every other time in the game when people are just "busy" somewhere else (for example Atton when you're on Dxun, he's unavailable, but his character is still present in the Save Game files). Visas, who you can get her to commit suicide on the Ravager, disappears from Save Game files after she commits suicide, so basically the pattern here is that characters who are dead, rather than unavailable, aren't in the save game files any longer.

 

While pure-speculation, the whole Remote with Bao-Dur's hologram sequence thing reminds me of a "If you're seeing this - I'm dead but I need you to do this one last thing for me...". I mean, at what time at any point in the game is Bao-Dur ever without the Remote. Never. The Remote would only be alone if Bao-Dur was dead. Again, just speculation.

 

I would have thought that T3-M4 was the one would piloted the Ebon Hawk after it fell and everyone else left for the Trayus Academy.

[BattleCookiee]

Might have something to do with the FACT his Char is replaced by the Remote...

 

So you can't use him since Remote is there... (taking his slot)

(Obvious)

 

EDIT: Due to the fact that this is because of GAME-MECHANICS, It doesn't tell anything about Bao's Fate...

Edited April 24, 2005 by Battlewookiee

[Cathari]

Might have something to do with the FACT his Char is replaced by the Remote...

 

So you can't use him since Remote is there... (taking his slot)

(Obvious)

 

EDIT: Due to the fact that this is because of GAME-MECHANICS, It doesn't tell anything about Bao's Fate...

 

You may be right.

 

I still liked the idea that Bao-Dur died while trying to reverse his biggest mistake, and redeem himself, and achieving that through his Remote, which was his creation and final "piece" of himself.

 

Not that I wanted him to die, but it seemed fitting given that rest of the tone of the ending that was cut, and what he kept moaning about all through the game.

[metadigital]

It really does cast the game in a harsh daylight to see what the end could have been. Instead, we got an end that was so lacking in meaning that I have not had any interest in playing the game again. As Silvershadow said, your summary (even though it might pre-empt the mod! ) actually helps sort the mess into some sort of cogent denouement.

 

I suspect that the Exile would have had to be taken (perhaps miraculously, like a teleport, or similar) from the group for them to think her dead. (Actual death would have had repurcussions on M5 and Kreia, after all, and some of them -- e.g. Visas -- would have known that.)

 

Perhaps she set off first and missed a scheduled communication? Then the team would have to assume she was dead or captured. Perhaps if there was also some big explosion in the general area where she was heading, that might help them to their erroneous decision.

 

Who knows? Probably one of the plot points they hadn't decided on and so it was not scripted yet when the command came to ditch everything not finished.

 

Also it is not clear whether the fights between the competing love interests (Micah-Atton / Visas-Brianna) are fatal for LS, which would have an effect on the end battles.

[Darth Flatus]

Yep the ending you described made so much more sense Cathari. Like silvershadow i had reas all the cut bits but never unserstood what the ending was supposed to mean.

 

Wow if the ending was actually like this i would have been totally satisfied and most probably wouldnt have sarched the net for complaints and signed up to these boards....

 

I hope the restoration team do the ending in this way.

[DevilCat]

But how can Bao be dead if (presumably) he's the one who fixes the ship after the crash on M5? Shouldn't he get back on to Ebon Hawk and fly away with everyone else? Also, sending Remote to do the job is a logical way out, why should they both go out and die? Bao's message hints that's what the Remote was built for. I think so, anyway.

[darth spock]

Good job. I finally understand the ending!

[metadigital]

... Wow if the ending was actually like this i would have been totally satisfied and most probably wouldnt have sarched the net for complaints and signed up to these boards....

 

I hope the restoration team do the ending in this way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And that is the saddest truth; the game suffered from a final effort that would have propelled this game from the ordinary (moments of innovative brilliance marred by basic competency failures) to the superlative (groundbreaking design without flaws).

 

But how can Bao be dead if (presumably) he's the one who fixes the ship after the crash on M5? Shouldn't he get back on to Ebon Hawk and fly away with everyone else? Also, sending Remote to do the job is a logical way out, why should they both go out and die? Bao's message  hints that's what the Remote was built for. I think so, anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed, but T3 could fix the Hawk -- presumeably there is a plethora of repair parts on M5.

 

I agree because the remote replaces Bao as a playable character, this explains his apparent omission from the save game file (which is only circumstantial evidence of his death).

 

The biggest mystery is what happened to the Exile to lead the others to think she died. Maybe she fell out of/ejected from the ship before it crashed? :D

[Darth Flatus]

T3 fixed the hawk in the prologue so its perfectly reasonable that he can do it at the end.

 

I always thought that the hologram of bao implies that he is dead and so his death triggers a det of instructions in the remote. To make it clearer a cut scene would be a good idea just to show what he was doing at the time of death. Maybe he was in the bit of the hawk that was crushed.....?

[Dark Wastl]

HK-47 knows that the Remote is still in the ship remnant and taunts the Remote to come out, but Remote eludes him, presumably to then later return and fire the MSG.  One could speculate here that there would have been an exciting cut-scene where when the Exile gives the order to be fired, that the Remote makes a dash for the console, HK-47 hot on his tail, and just as HK-47 lines up Remote to blast him, Remote activates the MSG.

 

 

I don't think HK planned anything against the remote. Would be kind of redundant to kill of GOTO if his goal is to eliminate the remote.

There isn't really a taunting remark against the remote, especially not in Goto's end scene.

[BattleCookiee]

The way I though the end-meet with Remote, GO-TO and HK (as you can listen to in the topic my Largest link in my sig points to):

 

LS, HK pops up, blasts GO-TO with the HK-51's and then Remote and HK blow Malachor

 

DS, GO-TO summons HK, who kills the Remote and GO-TO and HK guard the MSG untill the Exile took the planet...

[Silvershadow]

Well, I'm glad -- and a little relieved -- to see I'm not the only one who didn't understand what the ending was meant to be.

[Plano Skywalker]

Honestly, I must admit, I've read many, many, MANY cut ending threads, and not ONE of them actually managed to make me understand what the REAL ending was meant to be in a story context before. I mean, yes, I knew that Atton died, I knew that everybody went to face Kreia, blah blah blah, but I didn't really understand how all the scenes actually worked together.

 

The one part that I still don't really get is why everybody seemed to think the Exile was dead, and thus decided to go face Kreia.

 

This is awesome... I didn't realize they had actually planned a way to save Atton from that death scene.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The cut content with regard to Droid World is one thing (they admitted in official interviews that this was cut because of time constraints).

 

HOWEVER, has it ever occurred to anyone that some of the stuff may have gotten cut because it sucked?

 

I mean, really, Atton dying, everybody ganging up on Kreia and STILL have a cliffhanger....no, they handled the ending right.

 

It was not a *satisfying* ending but it was *supposed* to be a cliffhanger--having beaten a non-traditional enemy (who was not the real threat).

[kalimeeri]

The cut content with regard to Droid World is one thing (they admitted in official interviews that this was cut because of time constraints).

 

HOWEVER, has it ever occurred to anyone that some of the stuff may have gotten cut because it sucked?

 

I mean, really, Atton dying, everybody ganging up on Kreia and STILL have a cliffhanger....no, they handled the ending right.

 

It was not a *satisfying* ending but it was *supposed* to be a cliffhanger--having beaten a non-traditional enemy (who was not the real threat).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It is worthy of some thought, yes. If you take a wider view of theme, and how they intended to portray Kreia, the published ending fits better. She told Atris that 'Sith' was a title, and that was not who she was any more. It was not what she taught. So killing the party members might prevent them from becoming liabilities to Exile, but that was a decision I feel Exile should have learned to make on his/her own.

 

There is no doubt the ending feels artificially rushed. But it does show that Exile made a difference, just by influencing his party members ... who went on to influence others. It validates the journey, whether it ends on a cliffhanger or not.

[metadigital]

Well, I'm glad -- and a little relieved -- to see I'm not the only one who didn't understand what the ending was meant to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was more cheesed off than anything.

 

I could see the map points and I even went completely around the entire complex twice (clockwise and anticlockwise) looking for !secret! doors, with (obviously) no success.

 

Not removing the map points demonstrated to my satisfaction that the game had not been completed for quality to my satisfaction. :D

[BattleCookiee]

Ehmmm, guess we are both wrong, look at this piece from the Dialog.TLK:

 

Their presence is needed to stabilize the galaxy.Without them, the galaxy would be reduced to anarchy within years. And if there is anything I can't stand, it's an untidy galaxy.So, let us wait here, you and I, for the General's orders, and the fate of the galaxy shall wait with us.{[Gameplay Programmer: HK-47 is destroyed, several HK-50s and HK-51s arrive on the scene, behind G0-T0, flanking him like thugs.]} Correction: One could rust listening to your speeches, fat one. Perhaps it is the large, unwieldy vocabulator within your moon-sized frame that prevents your calculations from taking me into account.

 

HK-47 DESTROYED? WTF? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

What the hell they tried to do with this scene?

(The convo is spread very widly around the Dialog.TLK and ANY info how it works out is not found by me yet)

 

EDIT1:

{Slight contempt, actually making a comment on the fact that there's no, "Luke, I am your father" event in this game}

AND

[Gameplay Programmer: Have a scene where Visas is walking amongst the corridors of the Academy.]}{She stops, waits for a moment, draws her blade, as the corrupted Handmaidens step from the shadows, like Darth Vader when Luke is going down beneath Bespin. She'll draw her blade.}

AND

[sion bows down before Kreia as she sits there, meditating, similar to Vader bowing before the Emperor in Empire Strikes Back.]

He, he, they steal from the movies :D

[Brickyard]

Well having finally been able to complete this game due to a few freaky bugs (I completed it last night as a LS male), I've got to admit I was totally lost with much of what was going on on M5. I'd been close to finishing, but never 100% complete. And I've only finished it the one time, so easily could have missed much. I do plan on replaying as a DS male just to see what happens differently.

 

As the game stood as I played it, I have no idea why I fought Hanharr as Mira. Why was she on the planet? I have no idea what the point of the Goto-Remote confrontation was, or how it resolved (obviously the Remote sets off the Shadow thing, or gets help in doing so), and seeing the unreachable points in the Academy was frustrating as hell. Who fixed the Ebon Hawk?

 

Basically, from the first time I left Onderon (I went Telos-Nar Shaddaa-Dantooine-Dxun/Onderon-Korriban), I felt a little lost in what was happening, and felt the story sort of degenerated into mostly confusion, especially with regards to the companions.

 

But Malachor V was mostly just confusing. Nothing but mindless hack-and-slash and finding all the really nice items that I simply didn't find when I needed them earlier in the game.

 

At least I'm not the only one lost as to what was supposed to happen at the end.

[Darth Flatus]

I think this analogy has been mentioned elswhere - but for me from the rebuilt jedi enclave onwards it was as if the game stopped and ithe rest was being told in fast forward. Or as if i was being told a brief summary of the game's ending.

[metadigital]

I think this analogy has been mentioned elswhere - but for me from the rebuilt jedi enclave onwards it was as if the game stopped and ithe rest was being told in fast forward. Or as if i was being told a brief summary of the game's ending.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would add that it was told like we were watching a "what happened previously in KotOR:TSL" ...

 

 

 

 

 

PS I thought Cathari's plot synopsis was sooo good it needed cpr! :cool:

[E_Motion]

Thanks Cathari - now many of the loose ends actually make some sense. Funny thing; now the whole "wound in the force" idea is also beginning to make sense in a 'life mimics art mimics life ...' sort of way.

 

As I finally grasp the ending that should have been, I am also beginning to grasp another truth - KotOR 2 is filled with echos. The broken quests and unfinished dialogs are echos in the force. Echos of a sacrifice some believed necessary. Echos of a sacrifice that collapsed the world of KotOR 2, much like the sacrifice wrought by the mass shadow generator that collapsed the planet of Malacor V.

 

The real "wound in the force" is the sacrificed game ending; an ending that might have made KotOR 2 a true contender among all RPGs, both past and yet to come. And so we have a wound within a wound, and echos within echos. Those echos refuse to be silenced, and even now continue ringing into the future.

[Darkside]

Wow, it all makes sense now. It actually makes sense! I never thought K2 could...

 

I'm glad to hear Atton can be saved (at least in your interpretation). Make sure the Restoration Project remembers that! I don't want to watch the death scene... :'( :'( :'(

[Guest Fishboot]

Has anything been turned up that might fill out the Ravager portion of the game a little bit? I always thought the Visas/Nihilus stuff was a little nonsensical (particularly since Nihilus was such a pushover) and Colonel Tobin vanishes after his conversation. I'd be surprised if there wasn't supposed to be a better explanation for why Visas survived Kattar there and just more lore about Nihilus in general. There's some stuff in 853 that has Tobin relaying Kreia's trap to Nihilus (that he should come to Telos to feed on a bunch of Jedi there, except in reality it's barren and he'll "starve" and be beaten by the Exile) and some more stuff where Sion is talking to Nihilus and telling him to screw off - and something about him killing someone on "The Smuggler's Moon", presumably Nar Shadda - something cut from Nar Shadda, probably, maybe behind one of the perma-sealed doors.

 

Also, the contents of 907/904Kreia are driving me nuts - it's the scene where the sidekick Jedis confront Kreia - except Atris is speaking all of Kreia's lines!