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So is it time?


Kalfear

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Okies, dont just dismiss me here right off the bat (there a meathod to my madness).

 

Back in the late 80s/early 90s some games would come out with a NR18 patch/expansion for games that basically added nudity to the games. Back then they didnt go over that well and the practice was stopped. Today however is not the late 80s/early 90s.

 

Now I must admit I didnt bother purchaseing these as it really didnt add anything to the games BUT...

 

Traveling over the web for last couple years it seems players (I have no clue of real age) are looking for more direct, less subtle content.

 

So my question is, is it time for computer companies to start adding adult content?

 

Im not talking about full on sex acts or stuff like that but pay for expansions/downloads that include acts/scenes/language that would push the game rating into the "restricted" catagory?

 

Even on these very boards you can find a thread about how the romance in KotOR2 was to subtle and not in your face enough that people didnt catch on to the meaning behind the acts.

 

IE: The force sharing between the Exile and Visas was basically a classy way of doing sex. But people so use to not being challenged in creative indoendo (sp?) that they didnt understand. I really think these people needed Exile and Visas to strip down and bump uglies to get the concept across to them.

 

But its not just KotOR2. In SWG there is a way to create nude female vendors, there is clothing that leaves very little to the imagination for female PCs to wear.

 

UO and Lineage games push the envolope in scanty garmets. Other games have actually included nudity in their released versions from the get go.

 

I dont actually think games should have nudity in them from the get go but has the concept and reality now hit that its the next logical step (much like the movie industry and how they use to handle onscreen sex in the 50s compared to what you see onscreen today).

 

Just something thats been banging around in my head the past while as I read boards and notice the gaming communities as a whole become less and less satisfied with creative abstracts rather then in your face everything.

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If you want 'adult content', then you can download it for a lot less time than it would take to install a patch...

 

*sickos*...

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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  • 2 weeks later...
LOL, oh Im not saying I need the stuff.

 

For me I would turn off any profanity anyways,

nudity is whatever, if I want nudity I can (looks at GF) goto a strip club :lol:

 

Just saying that it seems modern day players just dont get it with out these slap in the face items to whack them over the head with. Subtlty just doesnt seem to work on todays gamers sadly.

 

I don't believe that it's necessary to be graphic, and I don't believe that the industry would embrace an 'R' rating, in any case. Their demographic still slants most games toward males of the younger set, without regard for females or the folks who were hooked on computer games when the only way to get a game patched was a long-distance download from the dev's BBS.

 

It might be a very bad idea, in fact. While few parents pay attention to what their kids are playing, there is a lobby that alleges that all the violence in the world today is caused by video games. Okay, you can kill people with a 'T' rating, but OMG--sex? That lobby was strong enough to get the ratings system applied in the first place.

 

I like the more mature feel of Kotor, and appreciate it all the more for the fact that it doesn't hit the player over the head. It's frustrating that so many don't pay attention to the thought behind what is said and done, or recognize the artistry involved in pulling it off. They just diss the game because they didn't listen or haven't tried to understand it. But we shouldn't have to bow down to that level. (Not like TV has--LOL) Hey, maybe we should teach our kids to think instead.

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Indeed. Consider the target audience. Maturity, among other things, plays a large part in what one calls entertainment.

 

I don't want or need more cleavage (or gore). Most games cater to the fantasy well enough in that area, thank you. :) I do want to be enchanted, if you will, by the dialogue.

 

btw, in today's games, all one needs to earn an R rating is to be too violent.

 

I think it's been time for a long time. ;)

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I agree completly with Cybersquirt and kalimeeri, that it wouldn't be necessary or good for any game to include nudity or graphic language. I think the dialogue in KOTOR has basically proven that subtelty can be just as entertaining. The simple fact of the existence of nude patches for games proves that there are alot of immature people out there. I mean who needs his/her character to run around naked slashing people with swords, seems kind of strange to me.

 

But on the other hand I would welcome more romantic dialogue that could hint in the direction the relationship is going or provide cut sceenes when the "real action" is taking place. I mean beeing from europe has given me a slightly more relaxed look to sexuality and I think eventhough it isn't of any importance romantic relationships and sex, although not visually displayed, could enhance the story of any RPG.

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First off, thanks to all for keeping this post in the vein it was meant ( a mature discussion, not a free for all kiddy thing).

 

Actually I kinda got my answer to my question in Jade Empire to be honest.

 

With bioware adding mf, mff, ff, and mf romances along with the kissing cinematic cut screen, it seems the industry is in fact starting to push the envolope now to see what and how far they can go (or get a way with).

 

I obviously dont expect it to come from a Star wars product but I wouldnt be to to surprised to see nudity or profanity (actually isnt there already profanity in Grand Theft Auto game????? (I never played it but swear I read there was somewhere) in RPGs in the near future.

 

I just hope companies use their heads with content like that if they add it. Allow us to filter nudity and profanity out if we so choose and not force alternative life styles on people or in game (leave it as an option, if you want it you can open it, other wise you never run across it).

 

Again, thanks to posters for posting responcibly on this topic. I was very hesitant to create it because it could so easily get outta control and abbused. Very happy that my fears were not made real :wub:

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Okies, dont just dismiss me here right off the bat (there a meathod to my madness).

 

Back in the late 80s/early 90s some games would come out with a NR18 patch/expansion for games that basically added nudity to the games. Back then they didnt go over that well and the practice was stopped. Today however is not the late 80s/early 90s.

 

Now I must admit I didnt bother purchaseing these as it really didnt add anything to the games BUT...

 

Traveling over the web for last couple years it seems players (I have no clue of real age) are looking for more direct, less subtle content.

 

So my question is, is it time for computer companies to start adding adult content?

 

Im not talking about full on sex acts or stuff like that but pay for expansions/downloads that include acts/scenes/language that would push the game rating into the "restricted" catagory?

 

Even on these very boards you can find a thread about how the romance in KotOR2 was to subtle and not in your face enough that people didnt catch on to the meaning behind the acts.

 

IE: The force sharing between the Exile and Visas was basically a classy way of doing sex. But people so use to not being challenged in creative indoendo (sp?) that they didnt understand. I really think these people needed Exile and Visas to strip down and bump uglies to get the concept across to them.

 

But its not just KotOR2. In SWG there is a way to create nude female vendors, there is clothing that leaves very little to the imagination for female PCs to wear.

 

UO and Lineage games push the envolope in scanty garmets. Other games have actually included nudity in their released versions from the get go.

 

I dont actually think games should have nudity in them from the get go but has the concept and reality now hit that its the next logical step (much like the movie industry and how they use to handle onscreen sex in the 50s compared to what you see onscreen today).

 

Just something thats been banging around in my head the past while as I read boards and notice the gaming communities as a whole become less and less satisfied with creative abstracts rather then in your face everything.

They stopped because of ESRB. Back in the late 80s and early 90s ESRB didn't exist. Congress threatens game developers that if they didn't come up with a rating system in a year or so, they will.

"Your total disregard for the law and human decency both disgusts me and touches my heart. Bless you, sir."

"Soilent Green is people. This guy's just a homeless heroin junkie who got in a internet caf

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  • 2 weeks later...
Even on these very boards you can find a thread about how the romance in KotOR2 was to subtle and not in your face enough that people didnt catch on to the meaning behind the acts.

 

IE: The force sharing between the Exile and Visas was basically a classy way of doing sex. But people so use to not being challenged in creative indoendo (sp?) that they didnt understand. I really think these people needed Exile and Visas to strip down and bump uglies to get the concept across to them.

I believe that it is time for more mature content -- I think that the gaming demographic is aging, and the double standard of violence being okay, but a nipple can cost you millions is wearing thin.

 

In reference to this game, sure there was some suggestiveness with the "sight" scene, but if you play a female Exile, you don't even get that. Just Atton and Mical bickering and Mira asking about "power couplings" (which I thought was cute). An embrace, something would have been nice. To suggest that people wanted more because they didn't "get" the artistry is well, insulting. A kiss, a hug, throw us a fricken' bone over here!

 

Cloris

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It's Obscene and no one would ever go for it especially for the age of gamers who actually find that amusing. like in fable you didn't see anything but they threw in the noises just so teenagers could get their kicks but really is it necessary for you to do "what you do" while playing a video game if so you alll need to get out of your parents basements and get jobs.

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I think you can find what you want in Japan.

 

Yes, hentai games can be pretty decent but they can end up being more "click your way to the ending" that anything else ...

 

We had Larry years ago but it was discontinued and the recent bunch of adult games appears to be in the same way of the recent Larry title, a bunch of mini games and nothing overall special about then.

 

I had some good feelings about The Singles that I expected to be a adult relationship simulator and instead end up as a very scaled down of The Sims, perhaps its expansion might decide to go that path but I have serious doubts about it.

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Wow. lots to reply to today!

 

Lets start with Cloris ;)

 

I believe that it is time for more mature content -- I think that the gaming demographic is aging, and the double standard of violence being okay, but a nipple can cost you millions is wearing thin.

 

In reference to this game, sure there was some suggestiveness with the "sight" scene, but if you play a female Exile, you don't even get that.  Just Atton and Mical bickering and Mira asking about "power couplings" (which I thought was cute). An embrace, something would have been nice.  To suggest that people wanted more because they didn't "get" the artistry is well, insulting. A kiss, a hug, throw us a fricken' bone over here!

 

Cloris

 

Welp. all I can really say is yes, as a female you do get the force sharing scene with Visas, along with the entire build up. At least I (and many many others who posted about when boards were active) got it when I tried the female character. No Idea why you didnt unless maybe you did follow Visas's storyline far enough to get it (but Visas's storyline was the easiest of all the NPC characters so not really sure how you couldnt get the the scene).

 

Also, sorry you feel suggesting many players didnt GET the meaning as insulting. All I can really say is look back at the older posts and you will see for yourself that yes, many people just flat out didnt GET it (which is what prompted me to even start this thread to begin with). Wasnt meant as, or intended to be, insulting. Was simply factual information. I see the same problem happening in JE currently (and that game DOES include a kiss scene). Many people see the scene but dont actually read the conversation before the kiss and dont understand its meaning.

 

Again, not meant as an insult really, just a simple truth that many who play RPGs, sadly, dont read and rely on the cinematics to tell them the full story. There is no way to force them to read, but by adding more adult content, the parts they missed would be made crystal clear for them.

 

Cant really explain it any better then that.

 

It's Obscene and no one would ever go for it especially for the age of gamers who actually find that amusing. like in fable you didn't see anything but they threw in the noises just so teenagers could get their kicks but really is it necessary for you to do "what you do" while playing a video game if so you alll need to get out of your parents basements and get jobs.

 

Sorry Sion, but what you find obscene doesnt nessicarily make it so.

 

I have been dabating this same topic on Bioware boards (came up in a romance thread and no, I wasnt the one to bring it up), and no one there yet has suggested its obscene.

 

Fact is, as different poster posted already, nudity and vulgarity can already be found in certain games. I know as a person that was around for the start of the computer age (40 years old), many early releases included nudity or special updates to bring in nudity (vulgarity really wasnt a issue until resently). And there was no uproar about it.

 

Not sure what you mean by "do what you do". If your suggesting people whack off to a computer game, I must say thats a VERY narrow, imatuer, and grossly over generalized veiw. As I said in original post, my question was more in regards to storyline clarity then any perverse assuptions.

 

While I totaly disagree with your assumptions I should point out that the world is changing. What people are ready to (not embrace but) tolerate is definately on a far different level then even 10 years ago.

 

A clear example of that would be the homosexual romances in JE. 10 years ago there would have been a huge uproar about something like that in a Computer game. Fact is, in todays market there really wasnt much made of it at all. Id make the assumption that in todays demographics of players, vulgarity and nudity would be more openly embraced then homosexuality when it comes down to controversial issues.

 

PS: Sorry for responding serious but dont want this topic to become a flame war and after rereading your post, its seems all you did was make false assumptions about players and state your moral outrage in the form of a couple words with out actually explaining your responce at all.

 

PPS: Sorry cant get outta my parents basement as I own my own house. But if they ever reach the age they need to live in my basement Ill make sure I kick them out just for you, hows that?

 

 

Yes, hentai games can be pretty decent but they can end up being more "click your way to the ending" that anything else ...

 

We had Larry years ago but it was discontinued and the recent bunch of adult games appears to be in the same way of the recent Larry title, a bunch of mini games and nothing overall special about then.

 

I had some good feelings about The Singles that I expected to be a adult relationship simulator and instead end up as a very scaled down of The Sims, perhaps its expansion might decide to go that path but I have serious doubts about it.

 

Naaa, wasnt refering to Hentai. Was refering to non porn, but more mature/adult content in RPGs. Have never played a Hentai game and have no plans to ever play one.

 

Leisure Suit Larry was fantastic :blink: Not for the nudity but the tounge in cheek humor you could find through out the games :) Hillarious stuff there :)

 

But Larry a great example (lol, had forgotten about those games honestly till you mentioned it. Going back to Sions post. Larry wasnt obscene, there was no morale outrage about the games, they sold INSANELY well, and were totally adult material.

 

Closing: Anyways, I got my answer recently anyways. While I dont expect stuff like this to appear in KotOR series as Star Wars has never really embraced vulgarity or nudity (well other then Lei in dancer outfit in part 6). Its pretty appearent that RPGs will be embracing more adult orientated or mature content.

 

I hope developers show the common sence that Bioware did in JE and make any controversial material optional by having a on/off switch or paths that require clear intent by the player to open them so folks that do find stuff like this obscene or what ever never accidently come to see/hear it.

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Wow. lots to reply to today!

 

Lets start with Cloris ;)

Welp. all I can really say is yes, as a female you do get the force sharing scene with Visas, along with the entire build up. At least I (and many many others who posted about when boards were active) got it when I tried the female character. No Idea why you didnt unless maybe you did follow Visas's storyline far enough to get it (but Visas's storyline was the easiest of all the NPC characters so not really sure how you couldnt get the the scene).

 

Also, sorry you feel suggesting many players didnt GET the meaning as insulting. All I can really say is look back at the older posts and you will see for yourself that yes, many people just flat out didnt GET it (which is what prompted me to even start this thread to begin with). Wasnt meant as, or intended to be, insulting. Was simply factual information. I see the same problem happening in JE currently (and that game DOES include a kiss scene). Many people see the scene but dont actually read the conversation before the kiss and dont understand its meaning.

 

Again, not meant as an insult really, just a simple truth that many who play RPGs, sadly, dont read and rely on the cinematics to tell them the full story. There is no way to force them to read, but by adding more adult content, the parts they missed would be made crystal clear for them.

 

Cant really explain it any better then that. 

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

Yes, you can get Force Sight from Visas as a female Exile, perhaps I should have been more clear -- I meant the Sight scene with Visas just prior to the game's end run. As a female character, you usually see Disciple at that point. While there is no gratuitous anything in the Visas scene, it is more satisfying emotional and implies a greater sense of intimacy as a male character. Unless I'm really missing something else, there is no real equivilent as a female character. Does that make more sense?

 

While your statement may have been based on factual information (yes, I have seen some of those threads) it was a gross generalization that frankly, was insulting. I was also very clear that I personally did not necessarily mean that I needed explicit footage in the act to get more out of it (a reference to your "bumbing uglies" comment) -- something you did not address. Surely we are not saying that the only way to express a greater emotional denouement is to cut in scenes of pixilated pornography or somesuch. If I want adult content (and occassionally I do), I know where to get it -- although finding such content coupled with quality is always a struggle.

 

I know that I am new here (and that you are not), but I assure you that I did "get it" and it, frankly, wasn't enough. That I wanted more is a testament to the writers' ability to take the player to an emotional level but were not either willing or able to see it through. I am sorry that you see that as me "dissing" the game because I did not "get it." If we can get past that, I think we can have a very worth-while conversation about this topic. Otherwise, it was good to try on both our parts.

 

Cloris

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Yes, you can get Force Sight from Visas as a female Exile, perhaps I should have been more clear -- I meant the Sight  scene with Visas just prior to the game's end run. As a female character, you usually see Disciple at that point.  While there is no gratuitous anything in the Visas scene, it is more satisfying emotional and implies a greater sense of intimacy as a male character. Unless I'm really missing something else, there is no real equivilent as a female character. Does that make more sense?

 

I know that I am new here (and that you are not), but I assure you that I did "get it" and it, frankly, wasn't enough. That I wanted more is a testament to the writers' ability to take the player to an emotional level but were not either willing or able to see it through. I am sorry that you see that as me "dissing" the game because I did not "get it." If we can get past that, I think we can have a very worth-while conversation about this topic. Otherwise, it was good to try on both our parts.

 

Cloris

 

The difference is in the idea of 'romance' rather than seeing graphic actions. (With 'whom' or 'what' you will). We don't necessarily have to see in detail what went on in the cargo hold. What we needed was a resolution to romantic involvement, yet there was none. Especially for a female PC.

 

We've come to expect more--I ended up in a major romantic triangle in BG2, and that was how many years ago? Perhaps the romantic sub-quests were cut, or maybe they just couldn't decide how far to take them, but in that sense K2 was a let-down. I mean, we got 3-4 men and 3-4 women on a spaceship all alone in space for long periods of time... That's realistic.

 

Gratuitous exploitation is another thing altogether. Maybe it's inevitable, but I for one would use the filters (language or whatever)--not because I haven't heard or seen it before, but because if it serves no real purpose, it's just annoying.

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The reason for such content is simple. It is the same reason that there is such content in art, books, plays, movies, music, TV's etc. Videogames are a form of expression. Sure they are "fun" but in reality they are another medium for expression.

 

Art is a reflection of life.

 

Life includes nudity, violence, foul language. It is common. I believe I learned my first swear word when I was six as a biker traveling down the road gave my friend and I the bird for no reason. I had no clue what it meant but my friend told me. I asked my dad if the f-bomb was a bad word. He looked at me told me it meant nothing and I never used it because I didn't think the word real.

 

Point isn't an anecdote of my youth, but the fact that video game language, nudity, violence is the least of problems when it comes to content. The content is all around us, and if that same realism lacks in games, movies, etc it can come across as fake or padded with fluff. Now I don't think that a game titled "Whinney the Pooh helps Tigger" should contain the F-bomb, or Whinney jack hammering Tigger from behind ... But I do feel that if you are playing the role of say a detective in a voice acted action game ... then yes some profanity may fit in there.

 

Nudity has already entered the gaming community. Playboy's Mansion, The Guy game, BMX XXX ... even the latest Leisure suit larry ... Even the idea of sensuality (DOA beach volley ball)

 

The market is there and that alone is enough for designers ... should there be an on off filter for content? nope. If you don't want the content don't buy the product. Is there a filter for R rated movies on DVD? In "Blade Trinity" does Blade really need to drop the F-Bomb? It gives realism to a character in an unrealistic scenario helping the viewer to accept the overall concept.

 

And to whoever felt that Video games are directed at kids still ... sorry but the average age of gamers these days is twenty-seven. And most mature gamers can handle a little bit of adult content without blushing or getting bent out of shape about it.

 

In fact a lot of times the ones getting bent out of shape have never seen or heard what they are complaining about. Ask any mother who berates Eminem if she has ever listened to his lyrics to know what he actual says that is bad ... most haven't. Or take it directly to the video game rating system. A craze brought on by Mortal Kombat and its gore. In which the majority of protestors and lobbyist involved admitted to not actually seeing the content first hand.

 

Nintendo trying to be responsible greyed out the blood as "sweat" but when Sega kicked the snot out of them in sells ... they made sure the next release had red blood.

 

People are too damn sheltered and censorship is horrible. If you aren't mature enough to deal with mature content then go by a doctor seuss book, listen to some barney songs, watch care bears, and play some Mickey's Magic Kingdom on the Nintendo.

 

And if it offends you ... just don't buy it.

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heh Jay,

 

While I agree with everything you said, I gotta go with cloris on the filter aspect.

 

Filters should be provided so no one person is forced to see or hear that style of content if they dont want to. Thats just good business practice for a company and would increase rather then minimize sales figures across the board.

 

I know for myself, even tho Im personally indifferent to all this contraversial content (makes no real difference to me if its in or out, I have no morale objection to it) I would definately look down on a designer that forced vulgarity or a alternative romance on me in a game and would most probably would opt for the "dont buy approach".

 

For a game creater, thats lost income that really should have been gained income.

 

However if they did it like Bioware did it in JE where the content is in there but I have to show my intent to see it (JE has alternative romances), it would be a non issue for me.

 

I mean, over the years I have had many gay friends, doesnt mean I personally embrace their life style and want to be involved in it. I judge people on who they are, not what they are or what they do in the privacy of their own homes. But they know that so dont sit there telling me about stuff I have no interest in. In a sence, thats a filter, and because of it, we all get along fine.

 

Same goes for swearing, I personally look down on people that swear every second word. Over the years Ive known people that do fit that catagory, but when in my precense they intentionally try not to or try to minimize the content. Again, not because of any morale outrage but because I choose to not live me life around that garbage, and will opt to walk away if someone insists on swearing that often. So in a sence thats a filter, and friendship becomes more important then the right to swear in abundance.

 

For Closis:

 

Hmmm maybe if you have done some of the romance with Disiple, his cut screne takes over, or takes precidence.

 

I know when I played female character, I point blank refused to romance Atton or disiple and did get the cut screen with Visas of shareing force moment.

 

Wasnt refering to the gaining of force site ability.

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heh Jay,

 

While I agree with everything you said, I gotta go with cloris on the filter aspect.

 

Filters should be provided so no one person is forced to see or hear that style of content if they dont want to.

 

I guess my thought on the filter is that I do appreciate the artists intent regardless what that be. I still can't see DVD's with the "G" rated version of "Pulp Fiction" as a filter option ... I realize that for many DVD's, music, etc have nothing to with games, but in so many ways they do.

 

Now I can see a point in filters for "mainstream" games ... or games appealing to a wide audience ... but in these cases the content would be PG or PG-13 at best equivalent. Going back to the DVD example to you really expect a mainstream movie like say "Shark Tale" to have "bad content" option that will allow you to watch the fish do the nasty? Or here Oscar cursing Lenny?

 

Point being that content should be geared toward the target audience. If it is fitting for the selected game to have cursing, nudity whatever ... fine ... that is why we have the entire rating system ... If it's not ... then I don't want to play a kiddie game just because it has couple easter egg nudie clips.

 

Keep the content uncensored ... but keep it where it belongs. And that way if you see something that you don't want to watch or listen to then you don't buy it. But the truth is that revenue for adult content is there regardless if it has a clean version so a seven year old can play.

 

To that degree ... given the technology, given the rating system in place, given the fact that games are already coming out, not just PC but on consoles as well ... then the answer to the topic question "So is it Time?" would be that it is past time and you are running late.

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heh Jay,

 

While I agree with everything you said, I gotta go with cloris on the filter aspect.

 

Filters should be provided so no one person is forced to see or hear that style of content if they dont want to.

 

I guess my thought on the filter is that I do appreciate the artists intent regardless what that be. I still can't see DVD's with the "G" rated version of "Pulp Fiction" as a filter option ... I realize that for many DVD's, music, etc have nothing to with games, but in so many ways they do.

 

Now I can see a point in filters for "mainstream" games ... or games appealing to a wide audience ... but in these cases the content would be PG or PG-13 at best equivalent. Going back to the DVD example to you really expect a mainstream movie like say "Shark Tale" to have "bad content" option that will allow you to watch the fish do the nasty? Or here Oscar cursing Lenny?

 

Point being that content should be geared toward the target audience. If it is fitting for the selected game to have cursing, nudity whatever ... fine ... that is why we have the entire rating system ... If it's not ... then I don't want to play a kiddie game just because it has couple easter egg nudie clips.

 

Keep the content uncensored ... but keep it where it belongs. And that way if you see something that you don't want to watch or listen to then you don't buy it. But the truth is that revenue for adult content is there regardless if it has a clean version so a seven year old can play.

 

To that degree ... given the technology, given the rating system in place, given the fact that games are already coming out, not just PC but on consoles as well ... then the answer to the topic question "So is it Time?" would be that it is past time and you are running late.

 

heh, thats were the delemia happens. Im asking about mainstream games.

 

Obviously not Star Wars because Star Wars has never embraced vulgarity, nudity, or alternative relationships. But main stream in general.

 

A good example actualy is Jade Empire (if you played it).

 

At the conclusion of the romance scene the PC kisses the NPC he/she involved with in the romance.

 

However, if you read the words exchanged just prior to the kiss, it becomes obvious to most they spend the night togather.

 

The problem (that I was refering to ) is that even though one would think thats obvious, more then just afew DIDNT get it. The concept or storyline was totally lost on them. This is where a more adult scene (not saying nudity but maybe siloettes on the tent embracing and such) could be used to make sure anyone playing DID get it.

 

Anouther example actually does come from KotOR2. Anyone thats followed the storyline and read the warnings from Kreia and comments from Visas knows that the cinematic of the PC and Visas shareing the force so she can see was a artful way of suggesting a sexual relationship between the two. Yet is you read back on the Obsidian boards you see again, LOTS of people just didnt get it. And then went on to complain the storyline was lacking or incomplete because they didnt get it.

 

Add in a scene where after the force shareing the Exile embraces Visas and they lay down togather (again, no nudity needed) and suddenly these people, that dont understand clear but very passive suggestions like discribed, suddenly GET IT.

 

Now obviously I used two examples were nudity or vulgarity wasnt needed but other mainstream games might find themselves in a possition where they have to resort to nudity or vulgarity to get point accross (after all, most developers out there dont write as well as Bioware or Obsidian).

 

So anyways, since Im refering to mainstream products, I think a filter should be added 100% of the time.

 

Think of it this way, Bioware added a filter for blood in JE (could turn it off or on) and designed romances in a way that you personally had to initiate the romance and then double and triple verify your intent before any romances happened. This was obviously added to ensure no one, but those interested, accidently ended up with the homosexual romances.

 

If just something like blood requires a filter, then surely vulgarity and nudity does as well.

 

On the grand scale of things, id say blood is far less contraversial then nudity, vulgarity, and alternative lifestyles.

 

Filters only make sence when put into context IMO :)

 

PS: Just to summerize: Im not asking for nudity, vulgarity, or even blood for that matter for the sake of having it. My enquirery is more about useing these things to advance storylines and situations.

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@Jay:

 

Well since you're pointing out that filters sort of censor the artists vision and therefore are corrupting the intent. I'd have to say that art is always relative! There are lots of people who would consider porn as art, but in the same way the drawing of a three year old could be considert art.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that the level of nudity or vulgarity sort of sets the sceen for the rest of the movie, game, music or whatever. There are tons of great movies that do just fine with out nudity, because the plot doesn't need graphic support. On the other hand Pulp Fiction with out vulgarity or Leisure Suite Larry without a sexual undertone would be plain stupid.

 

So especially mainstream games, which mostly don't need or rely on that kind of content, could benefit from a filter system. Enhancement of the relationships of characters would only be benefitial for most games, but forcing controversial content upon players or telling them that if they don't like it, they shouldn't buy it, can't be the way to go. A filter system would be kind of the democratic solution! Personaly I would probably not use it since I wouldn't mind either way, but then again that's just me, other people might find that content distracting or offensiv. Giving those people the chance to enjoy the game would only be fair, since the "mature" content isn't vital for the quality of the game.

 

As far as the rating system is concerned I think that is utter nonsense in the first place. I mean how could anyone judge what I would consider offensive, or how old someone needs to be to play a game, watch a movie or listen to music. :)

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Well since you're pointing out that filters sort of censor the artists vision and therefore are corrupting the intent. I'd have to say that art is always relative! There are lots of people who would consider porn as art, but in the same way the drawing of a three year old could be considert art.

 

snipped for space, see the rest of the post above!

 

As far as the rating system is concerned I think that is utter nonsense in the first place. I mean how could anyone judge what I would consider offensive, or how old someone needs to be to play a game, watch a movie or listen to music.  :p

Some porn is quite artistic, take a look at Andrew Blake's work or any number or quickly rising female erotic film directors and you can see that some parts of the marketplace are answering the demand for quality rather than simply anatomy. I guess I should say take a look if you are old enough in your location to legally do so. While the majority of work out there is bullocks, there is always the exception.

 

Damn, I'm off-topic again! Let's fix that...

 

Mature content isn't always about nudity or vulgarity. The SW universe is incredibly violent, but it is absent the gore that we usually associate with such (hence the propensity for energy weapons, in my opinion, all the dismemberment wihout the blood and viscera). I have to admit, I have had a good laugh at the recent parent groups that have complained that Episode III is too dark -- I mean, come on, Anakin becomes Dark Vader! How was that going to happen -- with him smelling flowers and snuggling cute puppies?!?

 

Rating systems are always questionable because they, by definition, must be based on a person or group of people's opinion as to what is appropriate for whom. However, I do greatly appreciate the additional descriptions: gang violence, drugs, sex, launguage: as a parent, that gives me far greater ability to make sure that what my children see is appropriate to their developmental level. E, T, M: those simply don't cut it -- however, these ratings also give companies the room to produce mature content whereas without such, they are accused of peddling porn to preschoolers. As a fan of mature content, I am also a advocate for the ratings system.

 

While I agree with everything you said, I gotta go with cloris on the filter aspect.

It's Cloris.

 

Filters should be provided so no one person is forced to see or hear that style of content if they dont want to. Thats just good business practice for a company and would increase rather then minimize sales figures across the board.

 

I know for myself, even tho Im personally indifferent to all this contraversial content (makes no real difference to me if its in or out, I have no morale objection to it) I would definately look down on a designer that forced vulgarity or a alternative romance on me in a game and would most probably would opt for the "dont buy approach".

 

For a game creater, thats lost income that really should have been gained income.

I do not believe that a game should have filters forced on it. If, however, a publisher wants a broad market appeal, then filters are the way to go. Of course, any such system depends on the involvement of parents in their child's lives, and we all know how well that goes over with the fundie groups.

 

As a consumer, if you decide not to buy a product based on the inclusion of adult or mature material, be sure that there will be someone right behind you to pick it up, perhaps just because it contains such. Mature content has almost never indicated lesser sales. In the marketplace, we all vote with our money. If a product has mature content, and is labeled as such, then no one is being forced to do anything -- so I am having trouble seeing your point on that one, please elaborate.

 

Are you saying that the inclusion of vulgarity or alternative lifestyles is to "force" such on the consumer? If in any place where representation of a heterosexual lifestyle would be appropriate, to say that any other representation would not be is dubious at best.

 

However if they did it like Bioware did it in JE where the content is in there but I have to show my intent to see it (JE has alternative romances), it would be a non issue for me.

Your wallet indicates your intent, in my opinion. If it is part of the story, and it is mature content labeled as such, then I have no problem with it.

 

I snipped the bit about your friends et al, because I do not believe that this is a place to discuss prejudice and the many nuances it encompases.

For Closis:

It's Cloris.

 

Hmmm maybe if you have done some of the romance with Disiple, his cut screne takes over, or takes precidence.

 

I know when I played female character, I point blank refused to romance Atton or disiple and did get the cut screen with Visas of shareing force moment.

 

Wasnt refering to the gaining of force site ability.

 

Hmmm, that seems odd -- not to seem trite, but has anyone else had that experience? I've played LSF a number of times and ways and never have I seen that.

I think I have a savegame that I can edit and test this theory...

 

Cloris

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Just thought I would point this out given the topic and all.

 

I was playing through the original KOTOR and never once before had I noticed this. But when you get to Dantooine at the Jedi Enclave, you meet a woman who's droid has been kidnapped. Turns out the droid has just run away, blah blah blah.

 

I never before noticed the undertones... and they weren't even that subtle. They all but say flat out she was using the droid to pleasure herself. Not just by the lighthearted way they refer to it as her "personal droid" for "personal" needs ... but when you actually ask if it means "ALL" personal needs ... the droid responds "you don't want to know" ...

 

I thought of this chat string and began to laugh hysterically ... so yeah there are hidden undertones in the Star Wars games for anyone that doubted.

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