Who was the best of the best lightsaber user?

[DeathScepter]

Even thru I am a Revan fan, he is pushing the limit of how powerful a jedi should be. Also that is why I am not so fond of The Exile because of the lvl 50 cap.

 

Many of the Older Jedi during Revan's time are quite if not too poweful for my tase.

 

 

Also Mary Sues of the Solo and Skywalkers. And the Death of the Hottie Mara Jade. Also Jacen is on my least favorite list of Star Wars characters for killing Mara Jade(Inwhich she is a beautiful redhead inwhich I have a soft spot).

[Darth Mortis]

Do you have a paragraph or sentence that describes that from Darksaber? I don't believe the Jedi would willfully use a technique like that considering it goes against their morals by taking something from somebody else, as it would be a bit too extreme and self-centered to be Jedi-like by stealing someone else' body. Actually, Palpatine managed to get into the body of one of his old Emperor's Hand's and that's how he got to Byss in the first place, though after he left the body, the guy went insane. GL never commented that Palpatine was the most powerful Sith ever, though he does imply it by saying "Yoda or Mace are the only one's strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine", though the ROTS Novel and NEC does say that "Yoda couldn't defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in History', so, yeah.

 

The part in darksabre was when the designer of the Deathstar (forget his name) was brought to Palpatine after Luke destoyed the first Deathstar. Palpatine kills the guy (He's eaten alive by bugs from Yavin IV) but puts him into a new clone body. Palpatine makes a comment that the techneque of putting someones mind into another body had to be forced from a Jedi master. (I'd give you a better quote if the book hadn't been a load of crap, leading me to throw it out). I would assume that the Jedi technique would be intended to put someone into a (Mindless) cloned body if they were dying and there was no otherway to save them. Of course a Lord of the Sith would realise that you could probably do the same thing to any living body if it was incapable of resisting.

 

Nevertheless, it's still canon. Besides, Palpatine gets powerful GRADUALLY, he doesn't get all of it in one night. As I recall, after TPM, he never used his saber again until Mace and The Posse confronted him and had to tone it down on the Force Powers and Sith Alchemy to keep himself away from being suspected by the Jedi. After the Purge, Palpatine doesn't have to worry about the Jedi and starts to practice with Force Powers and Sith Alchemy without worry, which by a few months before ANH, he's powerful enough to fry an entire room of genetically-altered Stormtroopers with Force Lightning(From SW: Empire comics, BTW) with ease.

 

Yeah, that was my point-Palpatine was the first Lord of the Sith for a thousand years who didn't have to worry about hiding himself from the Jedi. No doubt he was free to indulge himself in some of the more powerful techniques that the Sith had developed over the years-techniques that would have probably been hard if not impossible to hide from the Jedi had they been used before. He could have invented these powers himself, but it would be more logical to assume that at least some of his tricks were invented, but never used, by other Sith Lords.

[jodo kast 5]

Ouch. Sounds like he had some fun. Interesting. Yeah, DS was a load of crap. I remember just barely getting through Chap 1 before quitting and selling it to some bookstore. True, I suppose, though I would think it would be pretty easy for Palpatine to overpower the spirit of a host who was weaker than him or had little to no connection to the Force at all.

 

Yeah, that was my point-Palpatine was the first Lord of the Sith for a thousand years who didn't have to worry about hiding himself from the Jedi. No doubt he was free to indulge himself in some of the more powerful techniques that the Sith had developed over the years-techniques that would have probably been hard if not impossible to hide from the Jedi had they been used before. He could have invented these powers himself, but it would be more logical to assume that at least some of his tricks were invented, but never used, by other Sith Lords.

True, I suppose. I guess we'll never really know until someone comes along at LF and makes a novel about Palpatine's backstory. Until then, it's pretty much speculation, at best.

[OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)]

Though DE Sourcebook specifically states Palpatine is the only one who knew what Force Storms were and how to control

 

Only one who STILL knew it at his time. Also it's called lightning storm.

[Darth Scelus]

"...Assuming that it takes years to fully master a lightsabre form, and given that Luke only trained with Yoda for a few months, it seems unlikely that Luke would have been considered a master swordsman by the standards of the pre-clone wars jedi..."

 

Agreed...however, being the son of the 'Chosen One' might've added something to that...

 

 

"...Although Luke would have been trained in at least two forms-Yodas form and Obi-Wans-and he did seem to know Vaders style (he used that on the deathstar)...It may be that Luke's lightsabre form is/was a mixture of at least three different styles..."

 

 

Yoda's main form was Ataru (or Ataro; i've seen it spelt like that before), he used it to compensate for his old age and lack of height; it was an agressive form;

 

Obi-wan's (before the death of his master Qui-gon Jinn) was Ataru as well; although after defeating Maul he shifted to Soresu; the most defensive of all forms; realising Ataru's weaknesses;

 

The thing is Vader's form (as Anakin and Vader) was Djem So/Shien; the importance of this is that Djem So/Shien was developed by combining the Agressive nature of Ataru with the Defensive mind-set of Soresu; it was developed by a bunch of Soresu master's who beleived the Soresu as too passive; and preferred a more offensive angle; also it was to address the short-comings of Ataru; by blending the effects of both forms together;

 

So as Luke was trained by Yoda and Obi-wan; he would've naturally learned both techniques and blended them together hence leading to something that was much alike the Djem So/Shien style that Vader used

 

Although given that this wasn't the exact and precise Djem So taught to Anakin...

 

(and that Djem So included elements of Makashi; according to some sources; which Luke didn't learn to my knowledge; although Yoda being a Jedi 'Grand Master' and the best swordmaster at that time; he would've known all seven forms; i remember reading that he did know all seven but chose Ataru to compensate for his age and lack of hieght...although that's a discussion for another thread)

 

...Luke would've not had the finer elements of Djem So.

 

(also the fact that when the original trilogy was made i don't think they had the concept of 'The Seven Forms'; more that there really was only one way to duel with lightsabres; which was kinda based off Kendo with little bits of other stuff here and there...they changed the styles when they made the prequels; the 'Seven forms' were intregrated; and they used more sources of dueling)

 

 

 

"...in which case he would be far more adaptive and unpredictable than the 'old' Jedi would have been. That might help explain, at least in part, why someone who was only trained for a few months by Yoda would be able to hold their own against a fully trained Sith Lord..."

 

 

While it is an interesting supposition, I'm not sure that that would be the case; while in the sense he wouldn't be using 'stock' moves that one would be used to seeing, and that lends to unpredictability; but in a sense his lack of training would also make him very predictable in that he wouldn't have the mastery to use the technique/form to it's full effectiveness. Being adaptive too; i don't think he would've managed; as while he was not as experienced and hence he'd need to be adaptive to learn; he wouldn't have the mastery to be adaptive in a combat sense in that...

 

"...you need to know the rules; before you can break them..."...my music teacher drilled that into me; and in many things that is correct; he would've needed to know his forms completely before he could've used them in an adaptive sense.

 

 

 

"...Simply put they would not be used to fighting someone who was using a mixture of forms-The same way that Palpatine had trouble dealing with Vaapad simply because he didn't know that form, although there would have been other factors in that case..."

 

 

I don't think that would've mattered; the focus of a technique or form in this case; Djem So for example, is designed to counter ANY attack made in any way; with a certain counter move; while they would be taken surprise by the fact that their opponent suddenly shifts to another method of attacking; they'd still be able to counter it.

 

With the forms it's more different ways of countering the move; compare Soresu and Djem So; say the opponent strikes at your side (chest height) in a long swipe, (these moves are very hard to describe without visual aids)

 

Soresu; would have you make a quick pass of your blade across your body, close to your body, effortlessly deflecting the opponents blade

 

While Djem So; would have you swing your blade openly with force to counter the strike;

 

Also, Soresu would then have you wait for the opponent's next strike; delfecting it in a similar manner; while Djem So (providing the opponent hadn't already begun attacking again) would have you then attack yourself; this is difference of the forms; each has a disticnt philosophy; which is reflected in the way the form works.

 

There were other factors in the duel between Mace and Palpatine (in my view); but still it wouldn't have mattered that Palpatine didn't know Vapaad; although he would've been unused to fighting an opponnent using a similar style; his style would've countered it.

[DeathScepter]

any good fighter can adapt his fighting style to his need.

 

 

 

That is why Palpatine was able to keep up with Mace.

[seejai]

any good fighter can adapt his fighting style to his need.

 

 

 

That is why Palpatine was able to keep up with Mace.

 

 

palpatine was in no way keeping up with Mace Windu in their fight in palpatines office. If you actually read the book, it sys that palpatine was in full retreat of Windu's Vapaad, WHICH HE DID NOT ACTUALLY CREATE, IT WAS ONE OF THE SEVEN SITH LIGHTSABER FORMS BEFORE THE PURGE OF THE SITH, ENACTED BY DARTH BANE, LORD OF THE SITH!!!!!!! all im trying to say is that sith kick the crap out of jedi when it comes to lightsaber fighting.

[seejai]

ah.... that was my brother violently lashing out. i should have logged out. but i do kindof agree. about palpatine getting his but semi kicked

[Darth Mortis]

any good fighter can adapt his fighting style to his need.

 

 

 

That is why Palpatine was able to keep up with Mace.

 

 

palpatine was in no way keeping up with Mace Windu in their fight in palpatines office. If you actually read the book, it sys that palpatine was in full retreat of Windu's Vapaad, WHICH HE DID NOT ACTUALLY CREATE, IT WAS ONE OF THE SEVEN SITH LIGHTSABER FORMS BEFORE THE PURGE OF THE SITH, ENACTED BY DARTH BANE, LORD OF THE SITH!!!!!!! all im trying to say is that sith kick the crap out of jedi when it comes to lightsaber fighting.

 

Of course the Sith tend to be better swordsmen than the Jedi;

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

 

Through passion I gain strength.

 

Through strength I gain power.

 

Through power I gain victory.

 

Through victory my chains are broken

 

The force shall free me

 

(Code of the Sith)

 

The sith code stresses strength through conflict, therefore sith will prepare/train more in the arts of warfare. The Jedi on the other hand are more interested in peaceful resolution to conflicts than in smashing someones face in. All else being equal-age, species, strength in the force etc, a battle between a single Jedi and Sith will be in the Siths favour simply due to the siths better experience in fighting.

 

As for Vaapad it was created by Mace Windu, not by the Sith. I can quote from the book Revenge of the Sith;

 

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness.......I am called a great swordsman because I invented A lethal style; but who is greater, the creater of a killing style-or the master of the classic form?"

 

Besides which, how exactly would a Jedi Master learn a Sith lightsabre form a thousand years after Darth Bane and the Sith vanished?

[Julin Eurthyr]

I'll go on a limb and say that Mace isn't the best lightsaber fighter.

 

 

Reading the aforementioned wiki page on Vaapad:

 

1. The Physical portion of the style is described as a series of open, disjointed moves, that while on the surface look unconnected they are, in reality, an effort to confuse the opponent.

 

2. The true power of Vaapad comes not from the actual motions, but from the whole mental thing, ie, the "superconducting loop"... That trick does 2 things for the user, it reflects all force attacks back upon the user, and it raises the practitioner's stats to match those of his opponent.

 

So, a vaapad fight, to me, comes down to this:

 

My strength / speed match those of my opponent. Therefore, I'll just flail my lightsaber around, deciding which way to aim my next attack based on how we end up from our last attack. On the off chance I have my saber inside my opponent's, I can just directly slash my saber through the enemy, and since I'm as fast as he is, he won't be able to block it...

 

Now, onto the question of best dualist, the question boils down to "are we talking actual knock-down drag-off fight where the force is being used fully", or are we talking just a regular, swing the saber practice duel? Those are 2 different scenerios, the full fight where a consular can out-force the guardian (Dooku vs Yoda fight), or the saber-only practice which is dominated by your better swordsmen...

[Darth Scelus]

any good fighter can adapt his fighting style to his need.

 

 

 

That is why Palpatine was able to keep up with Mace.

 

My point; in learning a particular style one learns the method with which you counter ANY other style. The style imprints instinctual responses. You counter the same attack (no matter how it's made) with the same defensive maneuvre. While seeing a different form of swordplay will take an opponent off guard; it won't give you an advantage over an equally skilled swordsman.

So in a sense you're right; you are merely using your technique to counter a new one; so it could be viewed as 'adapting'.

 

palpatine was in no way keeping up with Mace Windu in their fight in palpatines office. If you actually read the book, it sys that palpatine was in full retreat of Windu's Vapaad

 

Firstly; and I respect you for notifying about your brother; I would just like to say that his argument is a little flawed; in the MOVIE which shows the 'real' fight; Palpatine is the aggressor for nearly the entire time; Windu gets in a few attacks; but Palpatine has him on the defense for the majority of the fight; he goes on the offensive when he drives Palpatine towards the window (when Palpatine starts bouncing off the furniture).

 

Windu was keeping up with Palpatine; remarkably well; and Palpatine was keeping up with Mace (when he finally went on the offense) equally well; Mace just got lucky when he kicked Palpatine's lightsabre out of his hand. Palpatine and Mace were nearly equal in capability; they were both Form 7 masters; Windu got lucky; that was all.

 

WHICH HE DID NOT ACTUALLY CREATE, IT WAS ONE OF THE SEVEN SITH LIGHTSABER FORMS BEFORE THE PURGE OF THE SITH, ENACTED BY DARTH BANE, LORD OF THE SITH!!!!!!! all im trying to say is that sith kick the crap out of jedi when it comes to lightsaber fighting.

 

 

The Seventh form was JUYO not Vapaad; JUYO was technically incomplete to Jedi (in my opinion); as to fully master it one had to embrace their powerful emotions; why Sith are superior COMBATANTS to Jedi; they could learn a far more powerful and lethal form that Jedi could not (without falling to the dark side); and joining the Sith anyway (a little self-defeating).

 

Vapaad; which was what Windu was using; was a brand new form that was designed to complete Juyo so that Jedi could use it without falling to the darkside; even though the only other Jedi that learned Vapaad fell to the dark side; it's

 

"...close, but not quite..."

 

Vapaad was the finished JEDI 'Juyo'. Palpatine was using the sith (completed) Juyo.

 

I'll go on a limb and say that Mace isn't the best lightsaber fighter.

 

 

So, a vaapad fight, to me, comes down to this:

 

My strength / speed match those of my opponent. Therefore, I'll just flail my lightsaber around, deciding which way to aim my next attack based on how we end up from our last attack. On the off chance I have my saber inside my opponent's, I can just directly slash my saber through the enemy, and since I'm as fast as he is, he won't be able to block it...

 

Well firstly; I agree; no he's not; Yoda was a better duelist; he was the top Jedi at the time after all; and he knew all the forms (well except for Vapaad); only he chose Ataru to compensate for his deficiencies (short and old). And Palpatine was at least equal to Yoda.

 

With the fighting however; Vapaad is quite dubious; we've only seen ONE example of it; not for very long; and a lot of the 'back-story' about it's intent isn't demonstrated in this fight; although Mace's moves are different from any other form we've seen.

 

And with duelling an equal combatant; the first person to make a mistake loses; or the first person to get a break wins. Your argument is correct; although the point is that if your equally matched you'll never get inside their guard nor they yours; not from skill alone; you're right in that: the first person to make a mistake will have their opponents blade inside their guard.

 

But the 'force-assisted' stuff kinda counters that.

 

Now, onto the question of best dualist, the question boils down to "are we talking actual knock-down drag-off fight where the force is being used fully", or are we talking just a regular, swing the saber practice duel? Those are 2 different scenerios, the full fight where a consular can out-force the guardian (Dooku vs Yoda fight), or the saber-only practice which is dominated by your better swordsmen...

 

That get's me a little muddled; with your scenarios; is that; in duel that is using force powers as well against a straight duel...or...a duel with the 'force-assistance' against a duel without?

 

If it's the latter; there's no point; the Jedi and Sith rely entirely on the force to guide their movements etc. that without it they couldn't fight at all; Jedi (and Sith) fighting styles all have the 'force' element built in; it's part of the form.

 

On the former though; in the high intensity duels there's no time for 'force-powers'.

 

And you are correct in that the better swordsman wins in such a duel. Although who is the better Swordsman is questionable; Yoda is my bet, as i've said before, being the Grand Master; but frankly taking the whole 'the dark side is more powerful than the light side' and the qualities of Sith training; i'd say Palpatine would also be considered.

[seejai]

actually in the dark lords of the sith comics im pretty sure it does mention vaapad as a sith form (and its 3000 yrs before windu) but i think im gonna reread it to be sure. and it also says vaapad brings u very close to the ds

[Darth Scelus]

actually in the dark lords of the sith comics im pretty sure it does mention vaapad as a sith form (and its 3000 yrs before windu) but i think im gonna reread it to be sure. and it also says vaapad brings u very close to the ds

 

 

Yeah do check up on that; because i don't doubt that it may be there; the only problem is that that contradicts all other evidence and i believe what's considered cannon; Mace Windu invented Vapaad (with a couple other Jedi's help).

 

Also you are correct Vapaad brings you very close to the darkside;

 

The reason being; stated in the Wiki page; that Vapaad was a channel for one's inner darkness; and to master it one had to be a true master of the light side;

 

this was dangerous as it meant one would face these emotions and hence skirt close to the dark side; the same was true for Juyo; the more a Jedi wanted to master it the closer they would get to the dark side;

 

Vapaad was the answer; you could have the completeness and full mastery of 'Form 7' without the nasty after-effect of falling to the dark side.

 

Vapaad was invented by Mace; to channel his dark emotions into a weapon of light; Vapaad was the COMPLETE Jedi form of Juyo; while Juyo (form 7) could be taught and mastered to a point by Jedi; it could never be mastered fully; because it involved embracing the darker emotions and hence falling the dark side.

 

Mace Windu was a form 7 master at the time of the Battle of Geonosis; this was Juyo; and perhaps realising that Juyo could never be fully mastered by a Jedi (in the time between AOTC and ROS, during the clone war) Mace completed Juyo by inventing the new form Vapaad; again; Vapaad is the COMPLETE JEDI form 7

 

They are both form 7, Juyo and Vapaad. But Juyo can never be mastered by Jedi; Vapaad can.

 

Although, in my view, it wasn't very effective; Depa Billaba was the only other Jedi to master Vapaad, and she fell to the dark side.

 

Which also leads me to believe that Vapaad can never be mastered by a Sith; seeing as it requires the user to channel their darker emotions into a weapon of light; a Sith could never master it; being adept in the dark side and all.

 

A Sith could master Juyo (Maul and Sidious both used it); as i've said; but they couldn't master Vapaad; because one of it's foundings is that you use it for a weapon of light.

[Darth Mortis]

Mace Windu was a form 7 master at the time of the Battle of Geonosis; this was Juyo; and perhaps realising that Juyo could never be fully mastered by a Jedi (in the time between AOTC and ROS, during the clone war) Mace completed Juyo by inventing the new form Vapaad; again; Vapaad is the COMPLETE JEDI form 7

 

If I'm remebering correctly the other Jedi to use Vaapad was Windu'd apprentice, which would strongly imply that Mace was using that Form before the clone wars since he didn't have an apprentice during the clone wars. Plus the clone wars were only something like two years or so long which doesn't seem quite long enough to 'finish' or invent a new form given that Mace was a Jedi Master sitting on the council, and therefore one of the people most involved in the war.

 

In order for what you said to be true Mace would have had to create Vaapad in a matter of months, test it, master it, master it well enough to be confident he could teach it to someone and then teach it to someone else. He'd have to do all this while handling the Jedi order's day to day buisness, helping to run the war and attempting to find out more about the Sith. Frankly I have serious doubts that anyone would have been able to do this. Learning one of the forms in a few months is quite possible (Luke Skywalker managed it) but creating a totally new form, or even finishing one, would require testing it as much as possible and therefore require a much longer time. And of Course Luke was only training when he learnt the lightsabre forms, he wasn't doing anything else.

 

That Mace was a form 7 master at Genosis doesn't surprise me, regardless of if Vaapad was a finished Juyo or a new form in its own right it was based on Juyo, meaning that he would have had to know Juyo before he started using Vaapad and before creating that form he would have had to be a master of that form. It should also be realised that some of the stock moves from Vaapad are probably identical to Juyo-and since before the clone wars all of the jedi's opponents would have been using blasters a Vaapad master deflecting blaster bolts would probably look identical to a Juyo master.

 

actually in the dark lords of the sith comics im pretty sure it does mention vaapad as a sith form (and its 3000 yrs before windu) but i think im gonna reread it to be sure. and it also says vaapad brings u very close to the ds

 

There probably was a Sith form called Vaapad. Mace Windu called the form he created Vaapad after a very dangerous predator on his home world. The most likely explination-and the simplest-is simply that the Sith called one of their forms/styles after this creature too. Otherwise you have to explain why/how;

 

Did a Jedi Master get enough information to copy a Sith fighting style a thousand years after the Sith order was believed to have been wiped out? The only people who would have been able to teach such a style were unknown to the Jedi before the battle of Naboo.

 

Why would a Jedi master on the council want to use or learn a fighting technique from the Sith? Any Sith fighting style is going to rely on the Dark side of the Force, altering it so that you could use that form using the lightside would imply an understanding of how the original form worked-meaning you'd have to use the darkside to use/learn the orignial which wouldn't have gone over well with the rest of the council. Also the changes would lead to a similar, but not identical, form which would raise the question as to why you'd use the same name. Yes, both the Jedi and Sith call the main lightsabre forms the same names; Ie Juyo is juyo for both the Jedi and Sith-but the first Sith Lords (meaning darkforce users, not species) were origanly Jedi who left the order. Which is to say that the main forms were created by the Jedi and then used by the Sith, so they kept the same names.

Edited July 6, 2007 by Darth Mortis

[DeathScepter]

There is no Vaapad for the Sith outside of Darth Bane by Drew K. that i am aware of. One mentioning of a Vaapad and it was an accidently typo by Drew K. and he really meant Juyo because of Deadlines and other factors, he and the editors miss that.

 

 

One word can be easily missed with all of the work both he and the editors were doing. And yes both of them had a ton of work to do.

 

 

 

Also Vaapad is just a finessing of Juyo by Mace but it was never to replace it.

Edited July 6, 2007 by DeathScepter

[DAWUSS]

Someone make a youtube video that answers this question once and for all.

[Darth Scelus]

If I'm remebering correctly the other Jedi to use Vaapad was Windu'd apprentice, which would strongly imply that Mace was using that Form before the clone wars since he didn't have an apprentice during the clone wars.

 

Actually; his apprentice was Depa Billaba who was a member of the Jedi council by PM; and she wasn't his apprentice during AOTC or ROTS; although she and Sora Bulq help Mace Windu design Vaapad (sorry, i've been pelling it wrong; i've corrected that now); but Sora couldn't take the flow of the light side and dark side energy; so he fell to the dark side; also Depa (after witnessing the atrocities of the war; and also because of the Vaapad stuff) fell to the dark side.

 

Considering the danger involved in learning any form 7 Depa would've had to have been an accomplished swordsmaster; obviously as she was a member of the Jedi Council; and hence she (in my view) must have assisted Windu in the creation of the new form; also she would've had to have already been a (to the Jedi point of view) master of Juyo before that (to my point of view).

 

Plus the clone wars were only something like two years or so long which doesn't seem quite long enough to 'finish' or invent a new form given that Mace was a Jedi Master sitting on the council, and therefore one of the people most involved in the war.

 

As some one has said before me; "...a good gentleman knows when he's beaten..." so i cencede your argument;

 

The Clone Wars lasted for three years; and even with two (or possibly three) of the highest swordmasters working on perfecting (might i also say that i would be more plausible that they 'complete' Juyo for the Jedi rather than design a completely new form) Juyo so that Jedi could use it; three years just wouldn't be enough.

 

In order for what you said to be true Mace would have had to create Vaapad in a matter of months, test it, master it, master it well enough to be confident he could teach it to someone and then teach it to someone else. He'd have to do all this while handling the Jedi order's day to day buisness, helping to run the war and attempting to find out more about the Sith. Frankly I have serious doubts that anyone would have been able to do this. Learning one of the forms in a few months is quite possible (Luke Skywalker managed it) but creating a totally new form, or even finishing one, would require testing it as much as possible and therefore require a much longer time. And of Course Luke was only training when he learnt the lightsabre forms, he wasn't doing anything else.

 

One thing i'd like to add; in that it would make more sense if they were helping Mace design Vaapad; although also he'd then have the ability to test the new style against these others that helped him; and also given that there was a war on; he'd have numerous opportunities to test the form out against other enemies.

 

Although, again, with learning a new form in short amounts of time, the force must play a role in that and hence wouldn't it also play a role in designing the new form;

 

Ah...i retract that statement; they are both totally different things; and the role it would play in the latter seems to me to be rather miniscule if at all.

 

That Mace was a form 7 master at Genosis doesn't surprise me, regardless of if Vaapad was a finished Juyo or a new form in its own right it was based on Juyo, meaning that he would have had to know Juyo before he started using Vaapad and before creating that form he would have had to be a master of that form. It should also be realised that some of the stock moves from Vaapad are probably identical to Juyo-and since before the clone wars all of the jedi's opponents would have been using blasters a Vaapad master deflecting blaster bolts would probably look identical to a Juyo master.

 

 

True. Again; in my view Vaapad is the completed Jedi Juyo; and so hence it would be more or less identical to Juyo; although altering the technique slightly perhaps; and hence it's true you'd need to learn Juyo to learn Vaapad.

 

Also i prefer my argument because i think it solves the argument of what Vaapad is; in that i don't mean i've got the answer and every one else is wrong; to me it finds the 'common' ground between the other sides of the argument;

 

In that Vaapad can be considered a 'new' form designed to replace Juyo; (as i does alter the mind set; to allow Jedi to use it); and also it can also be considered a 'completing' of Juyo (as it is merely adjusting the form so Jedi can use it).

 

There is no Vaapad for the Sith outside of Darth Bane by Drew K. that i am aware of. One mentioning of a Vaapad and it was an accidently typo by Drew K. and he really meant Juyo because of Deadlines and other factors, he and the editors miss that.

 

One word can be easily missed with all of the work both he and the editors were doing. And yes both of them had a ton of work to do.

 

Agreed.

 

Someone make a youtube video that answers this question once and for all.

 

The only problem is that we don't have a concrete example of what Vaapad is; if you observe the moves in ROTS; you can distinctly see the difference between Makashi (Dooku), Soresu (Obi-wan; although it is debatable by the back-story), Ataru (Yoda), Djem So/Shien (Anakin) and Juyo (Palpatine);

 

(Shii-cho is very simple and we know how that is supposed to work, supposedly; and Niman isn't shown; although it is debatable)

 

Each looks unique and you can see the 'style' of the form; but Vaapad;

 

As i've said before i'm not sure the moves and the back story match; although some of his moves were very much like the Juyo ones; so again it's possible that Vaapad is just a completion of Juyo for the Jedi; my argument.

 

And again it just isn't possible to really define the difference because we just don't have enough evidence to back either side up.

[Darth Mortis]

The only problem is that we don't have a concrete example of what Vaapad is; if you observe the moves in ROTS; you can distinctly see the difference between Makashi (Dooku), Soresu (Obi-wan; although it is debatable by the back-story), Ataru (Yoda), Djem So/Shien (Anakin) and Juyo (Palpatine);

 

(Shii-cho is very simple and we know how that is supposed to work, supposedly; and Niman isn't shown; although it is debatable)

 

Each looks unique and you can see the 'style' of the form;

 

As an aside;

 

The lightsabre 'Forms' used in the original trilogy were devived from fencing styles in the real world; Rapier, Epee and Sabre-In fact the guy in the Vader suit during the fight on Bespin was a real life fencing master. By the time of the prequals they started to shift towards other swordfighting styles-such as Kendo, which seems to be the basis for Qui-Gon Jin's form. I'm not sure why this happened, unless it was easier to find a fencing master schooled in the western styles than it was to find someone who knew easten forms when they made the original films.

 

Every type of fencing teaches different ways to fight, in some cases this is because of a different aproach to how you fight-Japanesse fencing styles for example tend to be more about delivering a single killing blow than defending yourself-in others the difference is down to the type of weapon-Again, a lot of Japanesse fencing moves involve slashing strokes since a Katana has a single slightly curved cutting edge. While Western fencing tends to be more about lunges, since most western blades are designed for thrusting. The weight of the weapon is also a factor, since a lighter blade can be moved more quickly-An epee or Rapier fencing match is a blur and a hell of a lot faster than a sabre fencing match since the blades are lighter.

 

When it comes to the forms as seen on screen what we have is a mixture of varying styles, with (I assume) some differences in the on-guard position to denote differing forms. Since lightsabers have no effective weight (One of the things that is consistant throughout the entire StarWars universe) and because the blade can cut just as well regardless of if it is thrust or slashed they most likely just picked the most visualy impressive moves, and added one or two impressive moves that probably are not used in the real world. (During the Mace/Palpatine fight Mace at one point parries a swipe by turning his back and holding his sabre one handed down his back. Somehow I can't see that being a very smart thing to do in a real fight...).

 

One interesting thing I have noticed is that lightsabres are never used in a lunge, even though the blade should be very effective used in this way. (Luke Skywalker, while training Mira Jade in one of the EU books, does pass comment on never this when she impales something on the end of her sabre). I can only assume that given the nature of the lightsabre props it was considered somewhat safer for the actors, in the case of a mistake or missed parry, for them to be belted over the head with the pole than impaled on the end of it. Since the films were also intended as family entertainment someone probably also decided that it was better if the kiddies didn't recreate lightsabre fights with lunges.

[Darth Mortis]

(And back on topic)

 

One thing i'd like to add; in that it would make more sense if they were helping Mace design Vaapad; although also he'd then have the ability to test the new style against these others that helped him; and also given that there was a war on; he'd have numerous opportunities to test the form out against other enemies.

 

I do see your point, and useing the form in real combat would allow you to fully understand a forms strengths and its weaknesses. However you really would want to test any new form as fully as you could in a situation where discovering its weaknesses doesn't involve dying shortly afterwards. That would take time, and I would assume that (Ironically) the middle of a war would not be the best time to start messing around with a new fighting techneque without a very good reason-I'd assume that Mace was quite skilled using Vaapad before the clone wars started or he would have stayed with Juyo during the war.

 

That Mace was a form 7 master at Genosis doesn't surprise me, regardless of if Vaapad was a finished Juyo or a new form in its own right it was based on Juyo, meaning that he would have had to know Juyo before he started using Vaapad and before creating that form he would have had to be a master of that form. It should also be realised that some of the stock moves from Vaapad are probably identical to Juyo-and since before the clone wars all of the jedi's opponents would have been using blasters a Vaapad master deflecting blaster bolts would probably look identical to a Juyo master.

 

True. Again; in my view Vaapad is the completed Jedi Juyo; and so hence it would be more or less identical to Juyo; although altering the technique slightly perhaps; and hence it's true you'd need to learn Juyo to learn Vaapad.

 

Also i prefer my argument because i think it solves the argument of what Vaapad is; in that i don't mean i've got the answer and every one else is wrong; to me it finds the 'common' ground between the other sides of the argument;

 

In that Vaapad can be considered a 'new' form designed to replace Juyo; (as i does alter the mind set; to allow Jedi to use it); and also it can also be considered a 'completing' of Juyo (as it is merely adjusting the form so Jedi can use it).

 

I have to agree that your explination does make the best sense, and also would explain why Vaapad is listed as form seven(?) along with Juyo, rather than being form eight. I do feel the need, however, to point out that there were some Jedi who were using Juyo so the basic form didn't need tinkering for Jedi to pick it up as such. It might be more correct to say that Vaapad is Juyo at its full potential, rather than completed. Since Juyo is an agressive form and Jedi are not meant to be agressive it could be safely assumed that the Jedi version of Juyo is probably not quite the equal of the Sith version. From everything I've read about how Vaapad seems to work it could be said that Vaapad is as close to the Sith version of Juyo as they can get, and at least its equal-if not better in fact, since the Jedi has to be more careful about maintaining control it probably would provide a slightly more defensive mindset, as well as allowing the user to plan ahead better than a Sith who's caught up in a fight.

[seejai]

sooooo the vaapad in darth bane is juyo but with the wrong name?????

[DeathScepter]

Yep that is right.

 

 

 

Also Another thing, Kendo and Broadsword are more of the OT than with the PT. Also With Qui Gon, It is more wushu than anything.

 

 

Ray Parks, aka Darth Maul, chorographed all of the lightsaber fights that relates to his character and he did assist Nick Gillard with the training of Liam and Ewan for that movie.

 

His martial art is Wushu.

 

 

 

Another thing, Darth Maul is also a Juyo Practionor like his master before him.

[seejai]

its so complicated!!!! i didnt know the guy who play darth maul chorograhed that. thats cool

[DeathScepter]

Also Ray Parks was the stunt double for James Remar whom play as Lord Rayden in Mortal Kombat Annilations. In that movie, Ray Parks gain valuable insight inwhich assisted him in the Phantom Menace.

[seejai]

thats impressive. i think its awesome when actors dont need stunt doubles

[DeathScepter]

the only reason that the stunt doubles are used is for legal reasons. Even of the actors wanted to do all of the stunts, By law there is always will be a stunt double or a stuntman filling that role.