Where the Endgame REALLY went wrong

[Jediphile]

Querry: wonder how posters would have been if they saw the end of the empire strikes back years ago.. and no word on return of the jedi

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Some of us are old enough to have done just that, and I dare say Empire was and remains an underestimated success in that category - it is my favorite Star Wars movie.

 

KotOR2, however, is similar to what Empire would have been after you see you see Luke escape Vader, the Millennium Falcon picks him up and then promptly jumps to hyperspace without the Empire interfering, then fade to black and end titles.

 

There is no comparison.

 

Empire had the Falcon struggle to escape Vader while letting Luke and Vader struggle with their relationship through the force, and after the Falcon escapes, we still get closure to that part of the chapter with Lando and Chewie going off to track Han, Luke staying to continue learning while recovering in time for the next round we know will be coming sometime, somewhere... It's an unfinished story, but it has closure internally, since you know where the characters and the plots are left off. I didn't leave the theatre feeling cheating out of an ending - I left with suspenseful impatience at what would happen next.

 

KotOR2, however, just skips straight to the end titles. Like I said, there is no comparison.

[Jediphile]

It would still be about the Exile, even more so than the other way.  He still finds out all the stuff from Kreia, learns how to use his special power better, and comes to terms with himself and the past.  However, before going off after Revan to fight the "true Sith" he TRULY becomes whole by facing his final test: Nihilus.

 

Take Return of the Jedi for instance.  Luke goes back to Dantooine to find Yoda again and speak with him and Obi-Wan, finding out all he needs to know and that his training is complete.  However, he's not "whole", not a Jedi yet, until he confronts Vader and the Emperor.  It would work the same with the Exile.  Kreia would give him his final guidance, but to be complete, he would have to face his final test, who is essentially the antihesis of the Exile to a certain extent.

 

You're absolutely right that my way would be more "Star Wars".  I think "Star Wars" is what most people want when they buy a Star Wars game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I see what you mean, but I don't think the way is was done was what hurt the story. The missing content - particularly closure - is what hurt the story.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the real problem with Nihilus wasn't that we met him too early in the plot, but rather than he was such a damn pushover. I mean, a couple of swipes from your lightsabers and down he goes... And this is the guy who eats planets and jedi gatherings for breakfast?

 

Sure, there is a good reason why he cannot hurt the Exile, but I still don't think the fight should have been quite *that* easy...

 

But either way, the plot point about Nihilus is that he is so powerful, but suddenly he cringes and falls over when he tries to "eat" the Exile. Why? Why is the Exile so special?

 

Well, that's the mystery, and you don't get the answer until Kreia tells you at the very end. Plotwise it all hangs together nicely. You don't go to Malachor V to kill the game's greatest baddies, you go there to resolve Kreia's treachery and learn the final answers to all the open questions *after* you've killed the big boss of the game.

 

But I'll grant you that the major boss was a let-down and that it all could (and should) have been told better. For example, it should have suddenly been a problem that you actually don't face Nihilus alone, since he would just continue to suck power from your companions. But alas, LA has spoken..

[SteveThaiBinh]

As superficial as it is, I think the disappointment with the ending was more to do with the production value than flaws in the plot. What I mean is that keeping the same events and storylines is fine, they just needed to flesh it out more: cut scenes with your party members on the ship as you approach Malachor (or leave them behind on Telos); a substantially different dark side ending movie; dialogue and scenes of you with your party as you all flew away from Malachor; a visual representation of the fates of the planets as Kreia tells you (like they did with Arcanum).

 

I realise a lot of this is just eye-candy, but I think it was the feeling of insubstantiality, rather than any deep flaws, that caused people to come away dissatisfied and to log onto these forums to express that. The order of events (ending at Malachor 5 rather than Telos), was logical I think, and probably not the main problem.

[Blaise Russel]

I want Star Wars.

 

I suggest you watch the movies again.

 

I'd rather new Star Wars games struck out in their own storytelling direction, rather than tell us the same old story again and again. We've *done* epic good vs. evil; now let's try something else, maybe, like morally ambiguous tales of self-discovery in a murky and unclear universe.

 

It's bad enough that KOTOR 2 heavily echoes Torment without it being turned into a clone of KOTOR/Original Trilogy but with the names changed.

 

As for the whole "shoe horning it" get over it.  It wouldn't be something forced like you seem to suggest, it would have just been a much better set up.

 

I've already explained why KOTOR 2's focus is on the Exile's uncovering of his past, not on stopping Nihilus. Your initial statement of Nihilus being set up to be the game's super-bad-ass killing machine is erroneous. Yes, he is set up to be *a* super-bad-ass killing machine, but he's unimportant to the central story. You could cut him out easily and all you'd lose is a big battle in space over Telos and Visas Marr; the main storyline would remain intact, if a little shorter.

 

See, thats where you're wrong.  It would still be about the Exile, even more so than the other way.  He still finds out all the stuff from Kreia, learns how to use his special power better, and comes to terms with himself and the past.  However, before going off after Revan to fight the "true Sith" he TRULY becomes whole by facing his final test: Nihilus.

 

How does fighting Nihilus make him 'whole'? Hell, if the Exile has already 'come to terms' with his previous actions and Malachor V, why does he need to go after Nihilus in the first place? What, he gets 90% of the way to 'enlightened' and discovers that he needs some insight that he can only receive by hitting Darth Nihilus with a stick several times?

 

Nihilus isn't the Exile's father, or his tormentor, or his long-lost best friend or whatever; he carries no emotional baggage whatsoever. What could he possibly have to offer? What could the Exile gain from beating Nihilus in combat that he doesn't already possess from chatting with Kreia?

 

he would have to face his final test, who is essentially the antihesis of the Exile to a certain extent.

 

Nihilus is not the Exile's antithesis. No idea how you came to that idea. Partner in Force-sucking-crime, yes. Antithesis? Hahahahaha.

 

You're absolutely right that my way would be more "Star Wars".  I think "Star Wars" is what most people want when they buy a Star Wars game.

 

Bah. Wallow in the movies if that is all you want. Diversity of entertainment is better for all concerned, even if it means you can't have everything be 'Star Wars'.

[Darth Credulous]

Nihilus isn't the Exile's father, or his tormentor, or his long-lost best friend or whatever; he carries no emotional baggage whatsoever. What could he possibly have to offer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As things stand, yes. Nihilus is meaningless. The point everyone is making is that he could be meaningFUL.

 

As to what Nihilus could offer, that's fairly simple - the Exile either has the chance to assume his/her place as the premier darksider in the Galaxy, with Czerka and the Sith remnants behind him, trying to put Revan's plans back together - or he/she has the chance to affirm once and beyond doubt the fact that despite being a wound in the Force, he/she is an agent of the light; by challenging the other embodiment of that wound and casting it down. Not to mention 'making amends' for the deaths the Exile is responsible for at Malachor, if there's any guilt over that, by saving a whole bunch more.

[Drakonnen]

I'd rather new Star Wars games struck out in their own storytelling direction, rather than tell us the same old story again and again. We've *done* epic good vs. evil; now let's try something else, maybe, like morally ambiguous tales of self-discovery in a murky and unclear universe.

 

You can still have amorally ambiguous tale with the climax at the END. However, instead of suggesting I go watch Star Wars, if thats your bag, maybe you should just go see Sin City...

 

I've already explained why KOTOR 2's focus is on the Exile's uncovering of his past, not on stopping Nihilus. Your initial statement of Nihilus being set up to be the game's super-bad-ass killing machine is erroneous. Yes, he is set up to be *a* super-bad-ass killing machine, but he's unimportant to the central story. You could cut him out easily and all you'd lose is a big battle in space over Telos and Visas Marr; the main storyline would remain intact, if a little shorter.

 

Once again you say it well. He is unimportant currently, despite all the build up surrounding him. He could be cut out. Thats the problem. He was completely wasted.

 

How does fighting Nihilus make him 'whole'?

 

Why did Luke have to face Vader and the Emperor before being a true Jedi? Why did the Jedi have trials at all for Padawans? Because the Hero's Trial is a necessary part of any hero's journey or epic such as this. Take it up with the JEdi council and George Lucas if you don't agree. Thats simply the way Star Wars is, and this is a Star Wars game.

 

Hell, if the Exile has already 'come to terms' with his previous actions and Malachor V, why does he need to go after Nihilus in the first place?

 

Uhh, he'd have to go after Nihilus to stop him from destroying the galaxy, if he's a lightsider, or from destroying the galaxy you intend to rule, if you're a Sith.

 

Nihilus isn't the Exile's father, or his tormentor, or his long-lost best friend or whatever; he carries no emotional baggage whatsoever. What could he possibly have to offer?

 

He doesn't have to have a personal tie like that. He is the Exile's antithesis. Both suffered at Malachor V, yer where the Exile shut himself off from the Force, Nihilus went with it and now feeds off it. Thats why it is the Exile who must defeat him

 

Bah. Wallow in the movies if that is all you want. Diversity of entertainment is better for all concerned, even if it means you can't have everything be 'Star Wars'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Again, a game title Star Wars, should be Star Wars-esque. Arguing that a Star Wars game shouldn't by Star Warsy is just silly. If you're the one whoe doesn't want Star Wars, you should be the one looking for Non-Star Wars games then.

[Blaise Russel]

As things stand, yes. Nihilus is meaningless. The point everyone is making is that he could be meaningFUL.

 

Actually, Nihilus already has a role. He's a warning; what the player can and will become without control. He's also a failure - according, at least, to Kreia's philosophy, which is the ideology given the most screen time in the game. He's not meaningless, it's just that he was portrayed as having more meaning than he actually does by the artwork and stuff. He's built up to something more than he is or needs to be.

 

As to what Nihilus could offer, that's fairly simple - the Exile either has the chance to assume his/her place as the premier darksider in the Galaxy, with Czerka and the Sith remnants behind him, trying to put Revan's plans back together -  or he/she has the chance to affirm once and beyond doubt the fact that despite being a wound in the Force, he/she is an agent of the light; by challenging the other embodiment of that wound and casting it down. Not to mention 'making amends' for the deaths the Exile is responsible for at Malachor, if there's any guilt over that, by saving a whole bunch more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Firstly, your explanation still fails to show what Nihilus provides an evil character.

 

Secondly, your 'Light Side' explanation still veers towards the standard romantic tale, with Nihilus being a means for the hero to prove himself, like a giant Force-breathing dragon. Fighting him doesn't contribute anything towards the Exile's self-discovery; the main quest would still be over once the Exile had spoken with Kreia.

 

Yes, of course, of course; it does work. However, it doesn't do it for me, mainly because I'm still seeing KOTOR 2 as journey of discovery, and this doesn't fit. Eh... that's just me.

 

You can still have amorally ambiguous tale with the climax at the END. However, instead of suggesting I go watch Star Wars, if thats your bag, maybe you should just go see Sin City...

 

Kreia *was* a climax. A bad one, because Malachor V is so, so rushed, but cut out the prophesying, make the fight more dramatic and 'master/apprentice' and add in a proper denouement, and you're set. A Nihilus-Boss-Fight is not necessary for a climactic ending.

 

And Sin City doesn't have things like 'the Force' and 'Jedi' and 'Sith' which are necessary to explore certain ideas (like, I don't know, the reaction of a control-freak Sith to an all-pervading all-controlling transcendental entity and her subsequent planning to remove it by creating a Force-less Jedi).

 

What's wrong with diversity, man? Why all the hate, man?

 

Once again you say it well. He is unimportant currently, despite all the build up surrounding him. He could be cut out. Thats the problem. He was completely wasted.

 

Actually - again - I think you ascribe too much importance to him. He was wasted in terms of difficulty; the player doesn't feel the significance because the man who purportedly destroys planets and can hold a massive ship together through sheer force of will can't even scratch two Jedi and a soldier, before he wastes himself by trying to drain a vacuum.

 

However, his story significance was small - he was just another enemy of Kreia's that the old witch wanted to eliminate.

 

You might as well say that the HK droids were underused, and THEY should be the final boss. Just that Nihilus has charisma, I guess.

 

Why did Luke have to face Vader and the Emperor before being a true Jedi? Why did the Jedi have trials at all for Padawans? Because the Hero's Trial is a necessary part of any hero's journey or epic such as this. Take it up with the JEdi council and George Lucas if you don't agree. Thats simply the way Star Wars is, and this is a Star Wars game.

 

Vague mumblings, damnit. Nihilus means nothing to the Exile; how can his defeat mean the Exile suddenly finds inner peace and calm? *Kreia*, yes, her death brings peace because a) the Exile surpasses his mentor and b) she's no longer messing with his mind. Nihilus? He has sod all to do with the Exile, apart from the invisible relationship you draw out of nowhere.

 

Uhh, he'd have to go after Nihilus to stop him from destroying the galaxy, if he's a lightsider, or from destroying the galaxy you intend to rule, if you're a Sith.

 

Allow me to clarify: I was talking in terms of Nihilus offering the Exile answers to his questions. If the entire game - not half of it, not a lot of it, but all of it - is driven by the Exile's need to answer questions about the way he is, then shouldn't the final antagonist have something to do with this goal? I mean, why not just have a Krayt Dragon crash land on Malachor and battle the Exile to the death, it'd have the same relevance!

 

He is the Exile's antithesis. Both suffered at Malachor V, yer where the Exile shut himself off from the Force, Nihilus went with it and now feeds off it. Thats why it is the Exile who must defeat him

 

Okay, firstly: antithesis means opposite. There is no such symbolic tie between Nihilus and the Exile the same way there might be between, say, a Jedi who drew upon the power of life (yes, the Force) and a Sith that drew upon the power of death (the Exile or Nihilus' anti-Force, so to speak). Even then, such a connection would be tenuous.

 

The Exile and Nihilus are the same, it's just that the Exile can control his vampiric nature. Sword of steel versus sword of iron, not sword of iron versus the olive branch.

 

Again, a game title Star Wars, should be Star Wars-esque. Arguing that a Star Wars game shouldn't by Star Warsy is just silly. If you're the one whoe doesn't want Star Wars, you should be the one looking for Non-Star Wars games then.

 

Because two stories are set in the same milieu, they should be the same? Once you come up with an idea, you can only take that idea in one direction? There should only be the one kind of story? What the hell kind of thinking is that?

 

Why, I mean, why limit yourself? Why limit yourself to only one kind of story per universe? Why does Star Wars have to mean "the movies, but with different people involved"?

 

Does every Star Wars story have to be "young hero with magic challenges big evil bad guy"? If so... don't you ever get tired of the same old stuff, every time?

 

Ye gods.

[Vashanti]

Well, the "Star Wars" tale(s) are inspired by Jungian psychology and the archetypes he described, and as such they show the evil side/good side (animus/anima), the process of individuation, or the journey towards reaching one's potential, etc.

 

So, yah, that's kinda always been the motif.

 

It's been years since I studied any of that, though, so I might be off a bit.

[Solar Xero]

i totally agree withcha bro,the ending has no climax at all!!!! the story is great through the whole game.....and then comes the end part....not fitting at all <_<

[Drakonnen]

Secondly, your 'Light Side' explanation still veers towards the standard romantic tale, with Nihilus being a means for the hero to prove himself, like a giant Force-breathing dragon. Fighting him doesn't contribute anything towards the Exile's self-discovery; the main quest would still be over once the Exile had spoken with Kreia.

 

Yes, of course, of course; it does work. However, it doesn't do it for me, mainly because I'm still seeing KOTOR 2 as journey of discovery, and this doesn't fit. Eh... that's just me.

 

Exactly, that failing is simply one of your own design, in your assuming that the story is ONLY about the Exile's self discovery. It isn't.

 

 

Kreia *was* a climax. A bad one, because Malachor V is so, so rushed, but cut out the prophesying, make the fight more dramatic and 'master/apprentice' and add in a proper denouement, and you're set. A Nihilus-Boss-Fight is not necessary for a climactic ending.

 

Yes, exactly, she was a bad climax. But no matter how you build up the fight with her, the fight against a prattling, gimped old woman is never going to seem as large as it does against a planet consuming, Jedi killing, Force black hole with his own fleet and capital ship held together by sheer will. Kreia just can't compete with that as far as grandiose and epic, climatic sense goes.

 

What's wrong with diversity, man? Why all the hate, man?

 

Nothing wrong with diversity, but where diversity = a premature climax and a completely boring endgame, then diversity has to give way. However, you're assuming doing the way I suggested it isn't diverse. It still explores those ambiguous themes, it just does it in a way that continually builds towards a climax at the end.

 

You might as well say that the HK droids were underused, and THEY should be the final boss. Just that Nihilus has charisma, I guess.

 

No, I hardly think that some droids could have the same importance ascribed to them as Nihilus. Its really rather simple: Planet consuming, multiple Jedi killing bad ass > prattling, gimped betraying old hag > assassin droids with funny language modules.

 

Nihilus means nothing to the Exile; how can his defeat mean the Exile suddenly finds inner peace and calm? *Kreia*, yes, her death brings peace because a) the Exile surpasses his mentor and b) she's no longer messing with his mind. Nihilus? He has sod all to do with the Exile, apart from the invisible relationship you draw out of nowhere.

 

Yet earlier you said:

 

He's a warning; what the player can and will become without control.

 

So you see, there is a link there, even if its not a personal one. The Exile must overcome which is essentially the monsterous version of himself, what he could have become, or what he could still become. Once he has overcome that, that is how he truly has become whole, either by defeating the danger and turning from it entirely and turning from the path in lightside fashion, or destroying Nihilus and essentially taking his place in true darksider/Sith fashion.

 

Okay, firstly: antithesis means opposite. There is no such symbolic tie between Nihilus and the Exile the same way there might be between, say, a Jedi who drew upon the power of life (yes, the Force) and a Sith that drew upon the power of death (the Exile or Nihilus' anti-Force, so to speak). Even then, such a connection would be tenuous.

 

The Exile and Nihilus are the same, it's just that the Exile can control his vampiric nature. Sword of steel versus sword of iron, not sword of iron versus the olive branch.

 

No, its just that your definition is lacking. For instance, the Jedi and Sith both have the same power of the Force and connection to it, but they are still the antithesis of eachother when it comes to how they use it. That is the same way the Exile and Nihilus are opposites. Nihilus let his power run rampant, he consumes others. The Exile cut himself off from it rather than go that route, and once he returned to the force, he drew subtly from others, and in essence strengthened them as well by awakening them to the force, rather than destroying them.

 

Why, I mean, why limit yourself? Why limit yourself to only one kind of story per universe? Why does Star Wars have to mean "the movies, but with different people involved"?

 

Again, you're just losing yourself in a limited definition. The story itself doesn't really change. Exile still has his self discovery, all the same themes are explored, it just rearranges two parts of it to build towards the biggest climax at the very end. Stop acting as if that rearrangement suddenly completely changes the story or destroys diversity. It doesn't. It just saves the best of the action where everyone is involved for the very end.

[Grant Dempsey]

no matter how you build up the fight with her, the fight against a prattling, gimped old woman is never going to seem as large as it does against a planet consuming, Jedi killing, Force black hole with his own fleet and capital ship held together by sheer will.  Kreia just can't compete with that as far as grandiose and epic, climatic sense goes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, then, your whole point isn't about concern over how the climax could've better fit the progression of the storyline (which is what a climax should do) at all, but rather about concern over how the climax could've better highlighted the massive space battle around Telos. What I mean to say is, the starting point for your argument here isn't "how the game's storytelling could've been improved". You're starting from just wanting the climax to highlight the "big war event" and, from there, are trying to find ways that the storyline could work around that.

 

Personally, I found the final confrontation with Kreia and her dialogue therein very dramatic and intriguing, and I'm sorry you found it to be "boring hogwash". I wasn't particularly disappointed at all that Darth Nihilus didn't end up being the primary antagonist, mainly because I found Kreia so interesting. What I feel hindered the game's climax was really just the amount of content that was cut from Malachor V and how more could've happened there.

[Drakonnen]

So, then, your whole point isn't about concern over how the climax could've better fit the progression of the storyline (which is what a climax should do) at all, but rather about concern over how the climax could've better highlighted the massive space battle around Telos. What I mean to say is, the starting point for your argument here isn't "how the game's storytelling could've been improved". You're starting from just wanting the climax to highlight the "big war event" and, from there, are trying to find ways that the storyline could work around that.

 

No, I think thats an inaccurate statement.

 

If you read through my complete comments, I did talk about how having the big climax with the fight against Nihilus at the very end would be better storytelling wise without fundamentally altering the nature of the story in addition to leaving a better impression of the game in general by saving the biggest action and epic feel for the very end.

[Rosbjerg]

I agree with the original poster ..

 

to me this seems like a better ending even though that was a plothole! since you are in essence the same as Nihilus, and it's not a matter of shutting off the force, since you draw your force power from others around you which is why the Masters wanted to kill you!

 

But you could still face him at the end as well alone.. during a huge battle, you then both get weaker as the battle progresses since you have no one to feed on for instance!

 

but all in all .. I agree with you Drakonnen!

[Drakonnen]

But you could still face him at the end as well alone.. during a huge battle, you then both get weaker as the battle progresses since you have no one to feed on for instance!

 

but all in all .. I agree with you Drakonnen!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

See, this is the beauty of it though. As the Exile, you don't NEED the force. Thats what sets it up as the better confrontation, in my opinion.

 

Multiple times we heard how the Exile turned from the Force and grew stronger for it because he develoepd abilities that he otherwise wouldn't have nurtured while continuing his Force use.

 

Nihilus can't shut himself off from it though. So alone, with the two of them, Nihilus would have no one to feed off because the Exile would just shut himself off and manage to defeat him without using the force at all. Instead of being seemingly random and not understanding how to control it as when he "lost" the Force the first time on Malachor, Kreia's final lesson to her student would be how to turn it off and on like a light switch, and how to use that unique power to defeat Nihilus.

 

So I don't see it as a plot hole. I see it as a plot enhancement and tie in opportunity

[Rosbjerg]

well he wouldn't be able to feed off you anyway .. he tried that in the game and failed .. that was just my point!

[Ki Rin]

Statement: its the lack of closure that i didnt like. like what happened on board the Ebon Hawk after they flew away.

[nuanil]

And this would tie in extremely nicely with the conversation between Kreia and Atton in Telos about Jedi relying oto much on the force, and the mandalorian battle circle, "Take away a Jedi's lightsaber and the force and they're weaklings that can't compare to a true mandalorian." or whatever they say when you do the battle circle.

 

But you could still face him at the end as well alone.. during a huge battle, you then both get weaker as the battle progresses since you have no one to feed on for instance!

 

but all in all .. I agree with you Drakonnen!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

See, this is the beauty of it though. As the Exile, you don't NEED the force. Thats what sets it up as the better confrontation, in my opinion.

 

Multiple times we heard how the Exile turned from the Force and grew stronger for it because he develoepd abilities that he otherwise wouldn't have nurtured while continuing his Force use.

 

Nihilus can't shut himself off from it though. So alone, with the two of them, Nihilus would have no one to feed off because the Exile would just shut himself off and manage to defeat him without using the force at all. Instead of being seemingly random and not understanding how to control it as when he "lost" the Force the first time on Malachor, Kreia's final lesson to her student would be how to turn it off and on like a light switch, and how to use that unique power to defeat Nihilus.

 

So I don't see it as a plot hole. I see it as a plot enhancement and tie in opportunity

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Stewart]

I always thought of this ending as being a multi-climax. It was a climax when you reach Nihilius and again on Malachor V. MY biggest problem with all of this, is that they cut out all of the stuff concerning your party members on Malachor V. I never talked to one party member on Malachor and it just completely left the feeling that there was this big piece missing, which we find out that there was.

 

If they would've added those character conversations, we would not even be having this conversation.

[Drakonnen]

If they would've added those character conversations, we would not even be having this conversation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I disagree. Even with that dialogue, the so-called "climax" on Malachor is nothing compared to the one on Telos was Nihilus, the Sith forces, the Onderonians and Republic showing up etc.

 

I mean hell, after that you even have the beginings of real closure and an ending anyways after fighting Nihilus when you finally talk to Carth. Thats when you should settle up with your party members to, now even more convinced of the need to follow Revan after talking to Carth, reinforcing what Kreia would have told you earlier.

 

Malachor was far too slow and dull, and Kreia's endless dialogue didn't help speed it along. The closure of hearing from your party members after that would be great, but it would by no means add to the climax (or really, the lack of one).

[Ohma]

Premature Climaxing? Oh dear, I'm afraid that I can't help you there...but here is *my* .00 cents:

 

I think that the Exile should have confronted Nihilius twice. The first time, of course, in the battle at Telos, where after grossly underestimating eachother the Exile destroys Nihilus' physical form, thus *temporairily* banishing it from existance.

 

The second time, on Malachor V, place of Nihilus' first, and now second, re-birth. In this second battle Nihilus would be far more powerful than before, and the player would have to destory Nihilus once and for all(I don't know how), and, if you had freed your other party members, it would give you multiple opportunitys to either save them or sacrifice them, and it would force the Exile to come to terms with their true nature, and to finally choose a path to follow, before confronting Traya.

 

 

 

...why do I suck so much at conveying my thoughts...and spelling?!

[Jivin]

Am I the only one that was primarily dissasitisfied with the CHARACTER endings?

 

I mean its great to see such in depth debate on the plot holes and lack of a climax ect.. but to me the downfall of the game wasn't in those things at all, it was instead with the fact that you party members which they pushed you into developing relationships with throughout the entire game, are totally ignored in the final chapter of the game... I mean if there was ever a flaw in a game of this type then that would have to be it!

 

I understand that a lot of the debate here is on the core storyline with the exile and his/her past... and arguably all of those extra characters are irrelevent to that core story, but from my perspective at least, this -isn't- a star wars movie... its an interactive story that gives the player a chance to explore a range of human(esque) relationships and emotions as they follow the storyline... and to me in something like that, the lack of a huge climax pales in comparison to the fact they failed to recognise the importance of including established character relationships as a critical factor in the end of a game/story.

 

I AGREE that the two "climaxes" that were set up in the game were quite weak, which is probably an indication of poor writing, but I imagine it came about as a downside of attempting to create such a 3 dimensional, thought provoking game, which was done to perhaps steer away from the traditional star wars theme. I welcomed that a LOT... which may be why I don't have as much of a problem with the plot on the whole as a lot of other people. BUT I do see the truth in the comments of people saying that the game lost its epic feel due to this.

 

To go with the whole Empire Strikes Back comparison, I see it more like...

 

You see the millenium falcon land on cloud city, and thats it. Luke has his premonition and goes to cloud city as well. he doesnt see leia or chewbacca or anyone else, and he goes into the trap, has his fight with darth vader, vader cuts his hand of yadda yadda "i am your father", then vader asks him to join the dark side AND THEN IT ENDS.

 

 

- Dan

[Drakonnen]

Am I the only one that was primarily dissasitisfied with the CHARACTER endings?

 

I mean its great to see such in depth debate on the plot holes and lack of a climax ect.. but to me the downfall of the game wasn't in those things at all, it was instead with the fact that you party members which they pushed you into developing relationships with throughout the entire game, are totally ignored in the final chapter of the game...

 

Well, to me, thats a huge issue as well (which is why I even included something about that in my suggestion), but I also feel that in the end, its a combination of all those things.

 

I AGREE that the two "climaxes" that were set up in the game were quite weak, which is probably an indication of poor writing, but I imagine it came about as a downside of attempting to create such a 3 dimensional, thought provoking game, which was done to perhaps steer away from the traditional star wars theme.

 

Well, thats another thing I suppose. Was it really that thought provoking? To me, droning on about Force Bonds, echoes, the Force having its own will doesn't equal thought provoking. More like it was forced dialogue recycled endlessly to make it seem like there was much more going on then there was.

 

Perhaps its just me (entirely possible), but I didn't feel like it provoked any, or that I even feel made any decisions during the game or given any real choice along the Exile's path regarding anything of that nature. Sure, you can agree to let the Jedi Masters cut you off from the Force, but even if you do it doesn't change anything. It amounts to nothing more than a mere dialogue tree option, not a true choice. The Exile cut himself off before the game starts, he gets his Force powers back either way.

 

I felt the choice in KOTOR1 was more aparent and one I was actually involved in, particularly as a lightsider. You find out you're actually Revan, the Dark Lord, yet you have been betrayed, you have no memory of your past and while you're technically on the good side right now, you only are so because the Jedi Council has been using you as a puppet, a mere tool. Do you hold to the lightside and embrace the new self created for you, or embrace the darkness and try to reclaim your former self? Whether you saw the twist coming or not, at least you were given a choice and a dilemna to deal with.

[Grant Dempsey]

I disagree.  Even with that dialogue, the so-called "climax" on Malachor is nothing compared to the one on Telos was Nihilus, the Sith forces, the Onderonians and Republic showing up etc.

 

I mean hell, after that you even have the beginings of real closure and an ending anyways after fighting Nihilus when you finally talk to Carth.  Thats when you should settle up with your party members to, now even more convinced of the need to follow Revan after talking to Carth, reinforcing what Kreia would have told you earlier.

 

Malachor was far too slow and dull, and Kreia's endless dialogue didn't help speed it along.  The closure of hearing from your party members after that would be great, but it would by no means add to the climax (or really, the lack of one).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, it seems to me that what you're really judging is the "excitement" and epic atmosphere of the climax more than how the climax would've fit the actual progression and buildup of the storyline. As if you're sort of saying, "How could the storyline have been different to justify this space battle coming at the very end instead?"

 

First of all, setting up Kreia as the final "voice of persuasion" for the Exile to follow Revan into the Unknown Regions better fit the progression of the storyline, because she actually had some knowledge of what it was out there that Revan went to face. Carth, on the other hand, did not. Would it really have felt like the storyline was "moving swiftly along" if the player learned the truth from Kreia, went back to Telos and dealt with Darth Nihilus, and finally spoke to Carth on Telos' Citadel Station, who had no real idea whatsoever as to what might be out there? What would have been the point to furthering the development of the mystery of Revan's departure from all known space (which the scene with Carth did) when the truth (or at least as much truth as was revealed in this game) was already revealed by Kreia earlier?

 

By the way, you seem to be forgetting the fact that that particular scene with Carth (and -- potentially -- Bastila) wouldn't always appear during the game. It only played if the player had said Revan had been redeemed to the Light Side of the Force in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. If the player had said Revan had fallen to the Dark Side of the Force in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, that scene wouldn't've played at all. That would leave that "epilogue" moment (in your vision of the climax) seeming even more empty, no?

 

Also, with Kreia as the final "voice of persuasion" for the Exile to follow Revan into the Unknown Regions, it was essentially set up as the true turning point for the Exile's character. When he confronted Kreia for the last time, he had confronted and resolved most of what lingered deep within him from his past along the path that she laid out for him, save for one thing: Malachor V itself. In confronting Malachor V in person -- resolving his past -- and truly completing all of what training Kreia had for him by surpassing Kreia herself, the Exile was now free to make his actual choice, to determine the fate of the galaxy, to an extent. It was the perfect point at which to bring on the conclusion -- and cliffhanger -- because it was the true resolution to the development the Exile's character underwent over the course of the storyline.

 

By setting up the final confrontation with Kreia as the "sub-climax" and the showdown with Darth Nihilus as the "actual" climax, it wouldn't enhance that crossroad point for the Exile's character. Quite the contrary, it would lessen it. He had already completed his training because he would have already surpassed Kreia, which would mean that he had already reached the end of his character development. All that would've been left for him to face...was a massive space battle that wasn't very personally signficant to him, apart from "just" saving the galaxy.

 

Also, regarding your apparent belief that Darth Nihilus somehow had a deeper connection to the Exile than Malachor V itself did...I don't quite see how. Darth Nihilus was another "byproduct" of Malachor V like the Exile, sure, but it still seemed obvious that Malachor V itself held a more profound connection to the Exile. After all, Malachor V wasn't just another "byproduct" of itself; it was the source of essentially all that had happened. The Exile carried more of Malachor V -- and took more from his experience at Malachor V -- than even Darth Nihilus seemed to, really. For the Exile, it wasn't just the source of his unusual ability to "feed" on the deaths of his enemies -- those he struck down in war -- to increase his power (since Malachor V itself also fed its power by feeding on war and death), as it was for Darth Nihilus. For the Exile, it was also where he rejected and severed his connection and ties to the Force. It also carried much emotional barrage in that it was where he ordered the Mass Shadow Generator's activation, and caused the deaths of hundreds (possibly thousands) of soldiers, Jedi, and Mandalorians to bring an end to the war, his decision to abandon the Jedi Order to join was another "unresolved" part of his past. Malachor V just seemed more significant to the Exile's character than Darth Nihilus did.

[Drakonnen]

Again, it seems to me that what you're really judging is the "excitement" and epic atmosphere of the climax more than how the climax would've fit the actual progression and buildup of the storyline. As if you're sort of saying, "How could the storyline have been different to justify this space battle coming at the very end instead?"

 

No, again you seem to be taking out one part of something I wrote and not reading through the entire post. I've explained -multiple- times how it better fits the story to have the Exile fight the antithesis of himself, the guy with the most power and the same sort of vampiric abilities as the Exile, LAST. I honestly don't see how you keep missing it unless you're flat out ignoring it.

 

The action however, and the fact that all the factions are focused there does certainly add to the climactic feel of it all. That doesn't make it the sole reason for it.

 

First of all, setting up Kreia as the final "voice of persuasion" for the Exile to follow Revan into the Unknown Regions better fit the progression of the storyline, because she actually had some knowledge of what it was out there that Revan went to face.

 

Oh, come on.

 

Lets recap... Kreia has lied to you, betrayed you, used you as a puppet to go after her enemies, and, get this, wants to see the Force DIE.

 

And now she is going to be the voice of reason? What kind of friggin' idiot would listen to her at all, knowing what they know, let alone after getting burned by her in the past?

 

Carth, on the other hand, did not. Would it really have felt like the storyline was "moving swiftly along" if the player learned the truth from Kreia, went back to Telos and dealt with Darth Nihilus, and finally spoke to Carth on Telos' Citadel Station, who had no real idea whatsoever as to what might be out there?

 

It would have made much more sense, and here is why: Kreia tells Exile what is out there, yes, and she tells him he'd have to leave his allies behind, like Revan did. Yet it is Carth, far more than Kreia, who shows the Exile the personal sacrifice Revan had to make when deciding to head out into the unknown. So it makes more sense to get that personal aspect last right before you have to make your personal choice and do the same to your allies.

 

By the way, you seem to be forgetting the fact that that particular scene with Carth (and -- potentially -- Bastila) wouldn't always appear during the game. It only played if the player had said Revan had been redeemed to the Light Side of the Force in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. If the player had said Revan had fallen to the Dark Side of the Force in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, that scene wouldn't've played at all. That would leave that "epilogue" moment (in your vision of the climax) seeming even more empty, no?

 

Not really. A similar scene with Canderous tilted toward describing Revan's darkness and the power he left behind could be used instead.

 

Also, regarding your apparent belief that Darth Nihilus somehow had a deeper connection to the Exile than Malachor V itself did...I don't quite see how. Darth Nihilus was another "byproduct" of Malachor V like the Exile, sure, but it still seemed obvious that Malachor V itself held a more profound connection to the Exile. After all, Malachor V wasn't just another "byproduct" of itself; it was the source of essentially all that had happened.

 

Exactly my point. They were both byproducts, similar ones as far as their power goes, and Malachor V was more important personally for the Exile. So it makes sense for Exile to return their FIRST to understand fully what happened there and learn the last of the necessary secrets and lessons it holds, settling his personal baggage before setting off to defeat the planet consuming antithesis of himself, Nihilus.

 

Notice that Visas Marr went to her chamber first to settle her personal stuff and center herself for the battle. Not AFTER. Why? Because it would have been totally out of place to come to terms with it and center herself afterwards instead of before. Just as it is out of place to defeat the biggest bad guy FIRST before understanding fully what happened to you and the true nature of your power.

[AlanC9]

But isn't this all assuming that Nihilus should have been the Biggest Bad Guy? I don't think he would have made a satisfying endboss at all. No personality. Killing him is like shooting a rabid dog