Deus ex Machina: the Will of The Force ...

[metadigital]

Your comments on the second part above seem to agree with WinterSun that a force which achieves balance would be considered a force with will. To some extent I raised my question (on which you commented in part one of your response) because I don't think your original question can be debated or answered unless we know which things fit the criteria.

...

[snip redundant explanation about the definition of a law]

...

Are we on convergent or divergent paths?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The laws are laws, yes. And gravity does not have a will, correct. I was asking for some clarification on WinterSun's ideas of the capital "F" Force as a small "f" force.

 

 

The definition of a will is not just a secret agenda. We can ultimately discover the behaviour of laws (even more abstruce ones, like quantum entanglement) because they are consistent, so just like in cryptography, security by obscurity si no security at all.

 

To show evidence of sentience, there must be an arbitrary component. The Force must arbitrarily help DS or LS according to some secret (i.e. unknown and unknowable to us) agenda.

 

I was talking about two different concepts, because it appeared that you had regarded the captial "F" Force as just a small "f" force, like gravity.

 

Okay?

[E_Motion]

Your comments on the second part above seem to agree with WinterSun that a force which achieves balance would be considered a force with will. To some extent I raised my question (on which you commented in part one of your response) because I don't think your original question can be debated or answered unless we know which things fit the criteria.

...

[snip redundant explanation about the definition of a law]

...

Are we on convergent or divergent paths?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The laws are laws, yes. And gravity does not have a will, correct. I was asking for some clarification on WinterSun's ideas of the capital "F" Force as a small "f" force.

 

 

The definition of a will is not just a secret agenda. We can ultimately discover the behaviour of laws (even more abstruce ones, like quantum entanglement) because they are consistent, so just like in cryptography, security by obscurity si no security at all.

 

To show evidence of sentience, there must be an arbitrary component. The Force must arbitrarily help DS or LS according to some secret (i.e. unknown and unknowable to us) agenda.

 

I was talking about two different concepts, because it appeared that you had regarded the captial "F" Force as just a small "f" force, like gravity.

 

Okay?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't mean to be argumentative - if that's how I came across, I apologize. I'm extremely analytical, perhaps too analytical, but that's just who I am, and I gave up years ago trying to be someone else (particularly since I didn't seem to have a great deal of success at it). Also I must note that my typing skills aren't the best, so I may have meant "Force" when I wrote "force"; don't know for sure.

 

Basically I think you have chosen a very difficult subject to discuss. Not a problem; indeed, notwithstanding the difficulty it is an interesting subject and the challenge is good.

 

I suppose where I was going was to see whether we could actually compare the Force to known physical forces and determine whether they are different in fact, (considering the manner in which they operate). Either way it might give interesting results and either way there might be some derivation (based on how the physical laws behave) that might be applied to the Force. No big deal... we've probably gone about as far as possible on this line of thought at any rate.

[metadigital]

Sure. The big difference with the Force (capital "F") and everything in the known universe is that it is a corporeal manifestation of an ethical concept.

 

More even than ghosts, this is a ludicrously surreal concept; being happy or altruistic is no longer a selfless deed; it actually manifests some tangible benefit to the one being good, as well as the person benefiting from the goodness, and indeed the entire universe becomes that much "lighter". And, of course, vice versa for evil acts and darkness.

 

It is always going to be a difficult study, because it is more insubstantial than even the most elusive philosophical concept we have in our universe.

 

PS I took no offence; I was just checking that you had understood what I wrote (which may not have been completely clear, I grant you).

 

I tend to be conservative in my use of emoticons ...

[E_Motion]

Here's a thought. If we combine WinterSun's interpretation of Metadigital's initial inquiry of whether the Force has a will, and then add a dash of the KotOR II plot, we could arrive at the following (that might be pursued in KotOR III or later).

 

************* THE WILL OF THE FORCE********************

Both Jedi and Sith masters have long understood that the Force seems to have its own independent will. This "will" promotes a balance between LS and DS Force users in the galaxy. Whenever either side achieves greater numbers and strength as compared to the other, there is a reaction in the Force that weakens the stonger side and strengthens the weaker side until balance is restored. Neither Sith nor Jedi fully understand how this happens, but both recognize this balancing power that seems inherent in the Force.

 

Legend has it that an ancient tomb known as The Will of the Force contains secret knowledge explaining how the Force maintains the LS/DS balance. The tomb, if it ever existed, disappeared millenia ago somewhere outside the galaxy.

 

Unknown to the Jedi Order, now reestablishing itself following the destruction of Malachor V, a group of Sith has found the The Will of the Force tomb in a world outside the galaxy once inhabited by the True Sith. The new Sith are using knowledge from this tomb in a nearly completed plan that threatens to finally eliminate all Jedi from the galaxy.

 

The The Will of the Force tomb reveals that the Force, although generally seen as one thing, is actually a neutral pool made up of light and dark components. Force users derive power from the Force by separating individual Force components from the pool. A purified component carries a LS or DS charge, much like a positive or negative electrical charge, because of the LS or DS imbalance between purified component and the neutral Force pool. The LS or DS charge fuels the power responsible for the powers of Force Users.

 

According to the tomb, the concentration of the Force can vary at different locations in the universe due to various factors. One such factor involves the activity of Force users in an area. Under normal circumstances Force users have a negligible impact on the Force pool. However in situations where the relative strength of LS and DS users becomes imbalanced, there is a corresponding imbalance in the components of the Force pool that limits availability of the overused Force component, resulting in Force powers of diminished strength for users of that Force component. An high severity imbalance could virtualy eliminate all Force powers of affected Force users.

 

The The Will of the Force has been hidden for millenia because misuse of its knowledge in ancient times corrupted nearly an entire galaxy and became a threat to many other galaxies. Using knowledge from the tomb, the True Sith designed an army of ciphers whose exact nature, machines or androids, is currently unknown. The cipher army was capable of stripping all LS Force components from the Force pool, rendering LS Force users defenseless.

 

The new Sith have learned where to find True Sith blueprints for producing the LS Force ciphers. They must be stopped.

 

********************

 

I plan to put a copy of this in the KotOR III thread.

[EnderAndrew]

Well, I guess an easy way to understand the Force is to compare it to playing K2 itself.  The characters in the game are those that feel the force but don't know it's will.  They do whatever we as gamers choose to make them do, but at the same time it's they who made the choice (for example the dialog options).  Since we can choose what alignment our characters are, we gamers could represent the influence of the dark/light side. 

 

We make the choices in the game, but the game itself provides how the story will end.  We don't know what the character's fates are no more than they do.  Only the game/devs do.  They could represent the Unifying Force.  This part of the force has the character's fates already written.  We still have our own will (as discussed by Handmaiden and Kreia) but no matter what choices we make, our fate was meant to be that way anyway.

 

The way I see it,

Kreia wants to break free of the Force's control, yet the Unifying force allowed her to realize she was being manipulated.

She was meant to figure that out.  Since the force is in everything, it's comprised of the characters' wills, which make up the overall will of the Force.

 

And as to whether the force's will is good or evil, I think in the Star Wars universe, like ours, whatever made us prefers good to reign to ensure that the universe isn't destroyed.

 

I hope I didn't just confuse everybody to no end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with everything up until the very end. Good and evil are subjective views of morality, to which the Force is probably immune. The Force as a living energy field is either a by-product of nature itself, or a conscious agent of nature. As such, the Will of the Force would simply be to survive, and continue the survival of the chain that supports it.

 

However life is a cycle, and death is a very necessary aspect of that cycle.

[Calax]

Force=Mako or lifestream from FF7 in my view. It's there, it doesn't have a will but if it were to dissapear from everything then we'd all turn to dust. In a nutshell, It's Brahman (I know that's spelled wrong) from the Hindu perspective, everones an expression of this universal form of life, when people die they join with the force. Following the anology the force eventually reexpresses them as sombody different.

 

These are my views, feel free to comment.

[julianw]

Calax - The second sentence in your sig is confusing. I think it should have been "everything we do is scripted, there won't be free will unless we kill god". If not, then could you explain it a little bit?

[Geos]

I find this post interesting but i think there are no true answers. The universe is creation, a sytem of it's own. Thus there is no reason that the laws, the logic, etc. within, are of any relevance to the Outside. Just like some artificial intellgence placed in a simulation, say KotOR II, could never learn what the our world is like on its own. Sure, it might get some correct information as there are also liknesses to our reality, but without ever being able to have them confirmed from within. I believe the only possibility to reach beyond the confines of the universe is with help from Outside and without the ability to confirm it by logic or science it becomes a matter of trust/distrust. So it comes that in the fundamentals of our life, such as "Who are we, where do we come from and what is our purpose?", we have to rely on belief. Ergo, one cannot grasp the wisdom of God and our paradoxons and dillemas may well have an answer. For the real world I trust that free will was given to us ; as for the SW universe we may have a peek at its Outside as it is comprised of the persons minds who created it, though I think their answer, being a human's ad hoc decision, is hardly that which you seek.

[metadigital]

1. So, in effect, the player of the game represents the Force?

2. But here you say the devs (who wrote the plot) are the Force. So we, the players, are just playing the microcosmic characters, living vicariously through them in their small worldview and experience. And we still have no control over our (virtual) fate, because the devs have written the plot

[Gabrielle]

Unholy s**t what's with this religion?

[metadigital]

Unholy s**t what's with this religion? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Que?

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

Deus Ex Machina is bad writing, period. The Will of the Force is a crutch for bad writing. Plain and simple.

[indarkestday]

I got to thinking that the will of the force is both good and evil and at the same time neither. For every amount of life there's obviously equal potential destruction. Our views of "good" or "evil" or "right" or "wrong" are based on our, for lack of a better word, programming that the force gives us. Our consciences automatically tell us whether something is right or wrong (i.e. what's beneficial for the world or what's bad for it), and since those of us who care for the world choose right, they automatically assume their creator has to be good since it created their world. "Good" or "right" is simply the natural programming we have to ensure we do what our creator wants, which is to keep the world it created in good shape. However, the creator gives us the choice to do evil too, which gets in the way of creation's progress. Those people aren't doing what the creator would like them to do, but it has to respect their choice. Destruction is a natural part of life's cycle, but nature provides the necessary amount of distruction by itself. When humans do evil, it throws the balance of life off a little bit. The creator may give its sentients the choice of good or evil to make them aware of its dark and light sides, but makes it clear that in this universe it wants them to do good. What if there were a universe that prospered on the creator's dark side, where evil was the choice the creator preferred its sentients to choose? Then those who do good would be punished by the creator. (I believe the phrase there would be "Go to heaven!" ).

[julianw]

Interesting... I think if a person's heart is filled with love: love for the creator and love for her creations, then that person's actions would be benefiting this world and what he is doing would be called 'good'. When love becomes absent in your heart, the thoughts of greed, jealousy, hatred, etc. would sneak in, and your actions would become 'evil'.

 

In the alternate universe described by indarkestday, if acts of love such as self-sacrafice is called 'evil', then 'evil' acts are what benefits all creator's creations. It doesn't matter if you would be going to 'heaven' or 'hell' for performing the supposed 'evil' deeds, you will still be rewarded for loving your fellow beings. So even if the creator is twisted and teaches her creations to hate each other, as long as we are offered the choice to interpret the creator's teachings as we are in this world, and as long as we have the choice to obey her or deny her just as we have today, that alternate universe won't be much different from what we have today.

 

The force may indeed have a will, but it cannot impose its will on the beings in its universe. It only serves as guidance. That's just my take on the issue. Feel free to comment.

[metadigital]

...

The creator may give its sentients the choice of good or evil to make them aware of its dark and light sides, but makes it clear that in this universe it wants them to do good.  What if there were a universe that prospered on the creator's dark side, where evil was the choice the creator preferred its sentients to choose?  Then those who do good would be punished by the creator.  (I believe the phrase there would be "Go to heaven!"  ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's an interesting idea for a game setting, but you are forgetting that the golden rule ("Do unto others as you would have them do unto you") is actually a sound sociological construct.

 

In an evil-based social structure, the strong survive. But the diversity necessarily suffers; there is an artificial focus on survival at the cost of all others. This Hobbesian situation causes

[SilentScope001]

Thread revivication...

 

It is evil and must be stopped! Join the Disciples of Kreia!

 

...But how do you know if you are really working against the Force? Or if you are actually being contorlled by the Force in order to rebel against it, serving its will without knowing that you are fufilling its will?

 

To me, the Will of the Force is a "Deus ex Machina", used to explain everything. Why in the world did you just encounter a little pervert Jedi in Dantoonie? The Force. Why in the world did you crash land into Dxun? The Force. Why in the world did you just "somehow" gained access to a list of where all the Jedi Masters are? The Force. What is interesting is that the developers turn this Deus ex Machina on its head, and have one of the characters seek to murder it.

 

And here is the thing that is interesting. Kreia states that she cannot turn away from the will of the Force, that she relies on a thing that she depises. She even said that there will be others who will turn away from the Force, but they manitan unconsisus ties to the Force, secretly hearing the Force, and doing its will.

 

But, only The Exile was able to turn away from the Force, because he was afraid of falling to the Dark Side on Malachor V. He created a wound in the Force by turning away, and he is nothing more than a beautiful empty spot in the Force.

 

This is why Kreia in some ways worship you. You are the proof that her teachings are correct, and you are better, much better than Kreia. You shown the whole galaxy that you can live WITHOUT The Force. The Exile is the only "Disciple of Kreia" that ever lived in Star Wars, and Kreia believes him to be enough. The Exile steals Force from others, and transmits his echoes across the galaxy, making it harder for others to hear the Force, and hence, hear the Force's will.

 

But is it really freeing the galaxy from the Force, or just placing a new ruler at the helm of the Force? You heard the Jedi Masters talk about how The Exile was able to manlipuate and mind-contorl others to do his bidding, via the Force Bonds. The Exile lies outside of the Force, but he gets to contorl the Force, and hence...could theoritcally, in essence, become the "will of The Force"?

 

Does not matter, really. The Jedi Order is being reformed, thanks to the efforts of The Exile and Kreia. Hopefully, they will avoid the same mistakes that the previous Order did....but I doubt it.

Edited January 29, 2007 by SilentScope001

[DeathScepter]

Dude that was deep........

[metadigital]

...But how do you know if you are really working against the Force? Or if you are actually being contorlled by the Force in order to rebel against it, serving its will without knowing that you are fufilling its will?

 

To me, the Will of the Force is a "Deus ex Machina", used to explain everything. Why in the world did you just encounter a little pervert Jedi in Dantoonie? The Force. Why in the world did you crash land into Dxun? The Force. Why in the world did you just "somehow" gained access to a list of where all the Jedi Masters are? The Force. What is interesting is that the developers turn this Deus ex Machina on its head, and have one of the characters seek to murder it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I can't argue predestination is wrong anymore than you can argue coincidence can't be the explanation for all those events.

And here is the thing that is interesting. Kreia states that she cannot turn away from the will of the Force, that she relies on a thing that she depises. She even said that there will be others who will turn away from the Force, but they manitan unconsisus ties to the Force, secretly hearing the Force, and doing its will.

 

But, only The Exile was able to turn away from the Force, because he was afraid of falling to the Dark Side on Malachor V. He created a wound in the Force by turning away, and he is nothing more than a beautiful empty spot in the Force.

 

This is why Kreia in some ways worship you. You are the proof that her teachings are correct, and you are better, much better than Kreia. You shown the whole galaxy that you can live WITHOUT The Force. The Exile is the only "Disciple of Kreia" that ever lived in Star Wars, and Kreia believes him to be enough. The Exile steals Force from others, and transmits his echoes across the galaxy, making it harder for others to hear the Force, and hence, hear the Force's will.

 

But is it really freeing the galaxy from the Force, or just placing a new ruler at the helm of the Force? You heard the Jedi Masters talk about how The Exile was able to manlipuate and mind-contorl others to do his bidding, via the Force Bonds. The Exile lies outside of the Force, but he gets to contorl the Force, and hence...could theoritcally, in essence, become the "will of The Force"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I take it you are assuming a Light Side Exile.

 

If the Exile is able to control the force, then the Exile is a (demi-)God, surely? If nothing else, if the Force has a will, then it now has multiple personalities! Competing goals (the Exile never claimed nor appeared to be able to understand the the Force's will) only mean trouble, too ... unless the Force is somehow controlling the Exile, which seems to be counter-intuitive the theory, or somehow able to predict the Exile's behaviour. Competing goals means trouble (too many Jedi cooks spoil the Force broth), and (the road to hell is paved with good intentions) ultimately a serious conflict ... wouldn't the Exile end up as another Nihilus, with the universe (and the Force) fighting to remove the aberration?

Does not matter, really. The Jedi Order is being reformed, thanks to the efforts of The Exile and Kreia. Hopefully, they will avoid the same mistakes that the previous Order did....but I doubt it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What if they didn't make mistakes ... what if they were just in a dilemma, where there isn't a wrong choice, just consequences ...

[DarthBane]

This is more significant than I believe anyone has mentioned yet.

 

If The Force has a Will of its own, then it is a God (equivalent to the Judea-Christian one).

 

Up until this point in time, Star Wars has implied that The Force is neither good nor bad, simply the sum of all life. If, indeed, The Force has a Will, then either:

 

it is a Good God and Good will triumph (Light Side), or

it is ultimately an Evil God and the universe ends in pain and suffering.

 

It also means that an individual's free will is subsumed in the Will of the Force (so that they are all pawns of The Force).

 

Interestingly, this is one of the central dilemmas of Christian thought, as first illucidated by Saint Augistine: Free Chioce means that there must be some people who will choose evil and will therefore not be saved; if some people are doomed, then either God is not all knowing (didn't see it coming) or not all powerful (couldn't prevent it).

 

So, does The Force have a Will? Or is it just an energy form that binds us all together (and can be manipulated by carbon-based life forms with iron-based fluid called blood that transports nutrients and oxygen fuel around their bodies, together with midichlorians that enable them a degree of control over this Force)?

 

Free Will or Fate? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Interesting question. the force can be neither light or dark because that would meen there is no balance. Also Christians lie about destiny. For example the Cathocism of the church states "Mary was predestined to be the mother of god, yet christians dont belive in predestination." That my friend is an oxymoron proving they are hypocrites. Mary was born without original sin so she could have jesus in a clean environment if you will, meaning her fate was chosen from the start. I think the force has a free will. The lifeforms it surrounds all have an oppurtunity to manipulate it any way they please, weither it be hurt people or help people. It is an energy that binds us all together, but the energy can be twisted to the people's will.

[SilentScope001]

Well, I can't argue predestination is wrong anymore than you can argue coincidence can't be the explanation for all those events. 

 

Well, Kreia did state to The Exile that he knows all too well that 'true concidences' are very rare indeed, and during the travel to Telos, she believed the Force has brought them there "for a reason". So, Kreia does believe that the Force contorls their destinty.

 

I take it you are assuming a Light Side Exile.

 

Assuming only due to argument using canon as a basepoint (and Canon I hate a lot)...but yeah, even the LS Exile would be able to manlipuate the Force, because he does not know that he is doing it (it's being done on a subconsisus level).

 

If the Exile is able to control the force, then the Exile is a (demi-)God, surely? If nothing else, if the Force has a will, then it now has multiple personalities! Competing goals (the Exile never claimed nor appeared to be able to understand the the Force's will) only mean trouble, too ... unless the Force is somehow controlling the Exile, which seems to be counter-intuitive the theory, or somehow able to predict the Exile's behaviour. Competing goals means trouble (too many Jedi cooks spoil the Force broth), and (the road to hell is paved with good intentions) ultimately a serious conflict ... wouldn't the Exile end up as another Nihilus, with the universe (and the Force) fighting to remove the aberration?

 

Well, while it is good to call The Exile a "Mini-Nihlius", I think there is a difference between Nihlius and The Exile in that Nihlius wants to gobble up Force users, while The Exile merely wants to use Force Users, for either good or evil. He's not interested in putting Force Users on a platter.

 

A war between The Exile and the Force would become a serious conflict, and may be more interesting than the war against the True Sith. Prehaps the Force is allying with the True Sith to stop The Exile from taking over "its" galaxy?

 

Jediphile makes a theory in that Darth Nihlius is in fact a physical represenation of The Exile's Dark Side that The Exile rejected over at the Battle of Malachor V, the "wound in the Force" that The Exile created. It is a good theory, but Jediphile makes a point that I would seek to talk about here. But first...

 

I doubt that in such a conflict, The Exile is going to win. Resistance against The Force is futile, and The Exile, sooner or later, is going to be killed off. That's a given. It's also a given that after K3, the True Sith would be destroyed by the armed might of Revan. But it would be quite, QUITE interesting to watch how Revan will destroy the True Sith...and how The Force will destroy The Exile.

 

I see that you quote 1984 in your sig, and I like the book too. So, K3 will, most likely, focus, as a subplot, the Force's boot crushing The Exile's face...forever. We're going to see how Kreia's dream will be smashed, and how the galaxy will remain as it always had. It will be fun...

 

And let us return to Jediphile's theory. Jediphile state that after The Exile will arrive to assist Revan in his war against the True Sith, Revan realize he needs a superweapon to destroy the True Sith. So he reveals to the Exile about Darth Nihlius being the Dark Side that Exile rejected all the way at Malachor V. Revan tells The Exile that he must embrace that Dark Side, and become Darth Nihlius, so that the True Sith be destroyed, but more importantly, so that the wound of the Force can be healed. And The Exile...accepts. In other words, the Force is able to destroy The Exile...by getting The Exile to give up

 

I feel it would be defeating the point of having Kreia teach The Exile, and I would like The Exile to go out with a bang rather than to surrender like so...(or you know, win his war against the Force). But it seems to be a possible theory, and I post it here for completeness.

 

What if they didn't make mistakes ... what if they were just in a dilemma, where there isn't a wrong choice, just consequences ...

 

Possible. Kreia however believed that the Jedi Council was, in a sense, cowards. They were afraid to battle the Dark Side, and instead fled from it, so that they can surivie. Kreia believed they made a mistake, but you know...maybe they didn't.

 

To me, the Jedi made a wise desicion to avoid the Mandalorian Wars. From a certain point of view, the Jedi made a wise desicion with Darth Revan. And, the Jedi knew they could not kill Darth Nihlius.

 

However, Kreia cares about consquences, and it is the consquences that deterimines if it is good or not. You give a poor person 5 credits, and that poor person get mugged for that 5 credits...therefore, YOU are responsible for causing that poor person to be mugged. The consquences, even if you are unable to predict it, you are still responsible for. (Kreia's ethical relativism was possibly movivatied to train The Exile to be a more fairer judge than The Force...)

 

The Jedi Council may not have made mistakes, but there was bad consquences, and the Council did not take responsibility for the consquences, and because of this, they had to be destroyed.

===

There is yet another thing. What if Kreia wants such a war between The Exile and The Force to happen...as part of a plan to destroy The Force? Since The Exile and The Force may seek to destroy each other, it would be an internal civil war...and a civil war where both sides may die. It does seem a bit Kreia-ish to use The Exile for such a means...

 

Also, in K3, it can easily be retconned that Kreia was wrong. Prehaps The Exile may find some way to make amends and peace with The Force, and both may be able to prosper?

Edited January 30, 2007 by SilentScope001

[Dark Wastl]

Interesting question. the force can be neither light or dark because that would meen there is no balance.

 

Not necessarily.

 

There are two kinds of balance:

 

1) Balance between two things, equal to each other. This balance could be destroyed by one part getting weaker.

 

2) Balance by one object, which can be harmed by other influences. Example: nature.

Lets take an oil catastrophe as an example. Before it happens, nature is in balance, but once it happens, all balance is lost and animals and plants are destroyed. This is the balance Star Wars is about. In case of the movies, Anakin Skywalker brings the force back into balance by killing the Emperor, destroying the Sith and turning power back over to the lightside.

[Knights&Darths]

If The Force has a Will of its own, then it is a God (equivalent to the Judea-Christian one) [

[WhiteRaven]

if the force had a will, wouldn't it eliminate anyone who found out that big huge death echoes can kill it? at Malachor kreia learned that, but she lived quite a bit longer, the exile learned it first hand, but again wasn't killed by the sith, or by the jedi masters, the council failed to cut her off from the force, she could have died anytime during her exile, she could have died from the explosion at peragus, so why didn't she?

to will is to make happen, try this, politely ask your arm to move, without actually moving it. It doesn't work. Now just move your arm, you willed your arm to move and it moved (unless it's broken).

 

"except maybe pope Palpatine"

 

I didn't know he was catholic...

 

 

"the natural phenomena responsible for existence itself, probably the original idea of the Jewish version, considering the meaning of the name."

 

which name, there are many hebrew words for god:

 

YHVH

Adonai

baal

eloh

elohim(this one is translated god, but is actually plural)

Illahu

[Knights&Darths]

if the force had a will, wouldn't it eliminate anyone who found out that big huge death echoes can kill it?

Kreia can't kill the Force just as she can't kill George Lucas, it is impossible to elude the Force, and she realizes this in the end I think

[SilentScope001]

if the force had a will, wouldn't it eliminate anyone who found out that big huge death echoes can kill it? at Malachor kreia learned that, but she lived quite a bit longer, the exile learned it first hand, but again wasn't killed by the sith, or by the jedi masters, the council failed to cut her off from the force, she could have died anytime during her exile, she could have died from the explosion at peragus, so why didn't she?

And here is the thing. We know aboustley nothing that about the Force's Will. We don't even know how POWERFUL the Force is. It flows within everyone, but does it contorl everything, or does it only infulence on the sidelines. After all, since there is a "big huge death echo" that can kill it, it shows The Force is not as omiprescent as others things. And maybe The Force also failed in all its possiblities...or, thanks to that "big huge death echo", the Force is so wounded that The Exile and Kreia are able to live. And if The Exile becomes the Force God, as I think, The Exile can basically manlipuate fate and events to do what he wants to do!

 

But, maybe The Force wants The Exile to live, for some reason...

===

I think the Force is no different. It cares little for forms, it just reacts to your own nature, light or dark, and achieves balance merely by responding to our stimuli. It affects us and drive us like an electromagnetic field, more or less, in a totally natural unintentional way.

 

Still, that is the Will of the Force, and Kreia hates it. The Force becomes a scapegoat for all problems according to Kreia. After all, most wars in the galaxy are caused by Jedi and Sith, who are using the Force. Take out the Force, and no more war.

 

Of course, that may be a logical fallacy. Look at the Rakatans. They were stripped of the Force as a race, and they still murdered each other.

 

Kreia can't kill the Force just as she can't kill George Lucas, it is impossible to elude the Force, and she realizes this in the end I think…

 

To me, Kreia did Kill the Force, just not in the whole galaxy. The Force was merely killed within the body of The Exile, and she is content of The Exile being freed of the Force. The Galaxy may not be able to freed, but at least one person is saved.

Edited January 31, 2007 by SilentScope001