The Kreia/Kae Question

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

That does put a different spin on those cutscenes now you mention it. Perhaps that was going to be the way of revealing who she was without the handmaiden.

 

Although it could just be that Kreia recognised what a smart chap he was and was keeping an eye on him.

[The Great Phantom]

Kreia was insane. She wanted to destroy/deafen all that feel the Force, and only the Strong would go deaf, taking out their strength in the first place. This would kill pretty much everything, including herself.

She would strenghten the man...

The force is not just a usefull tool, force sensitive use the force to sustain themselves, to fill their weakness, due to this they will never improve or "fight" to become better as the force is there.

 

for example

if you break your legs to point that you need to do a lot of reabilitation to walk again but instead to "fight" and to do exercice you go around with a wheelchair is likely that you will never walk again.

 

the force is like that it prevents to develop your own skills becoming a sort of "replacement" of yourself.

 

The force is also something you can't really control, as Kreia says (and even Yoda to a degree), is manipulative and prepare a destiny for everyone, it doesn't care about humanity it just seek balance, regardless of how many people will die.

The mandalorean and jedi civil war are made for that, the jedi extermination by Nihilus is made for that. Even in the first trilogy we see a similar path...

 

 

Kreia propose is a human evolution, she is not looking for a world where the stronger put in submission the weak one (is this even wtih the force) she is looking to a world where a man can express himself and his talents, forgin his own destiny.

 

 

I think that the "True Sith" could have tricked her somehow, because all she manages to do is create enough echoes to be heard anywhere... If she had continued, then the above senario would be completed.

 

Probably she want to create a echo, but that one is the Exile that can be an example for all the humanity.

 

(if someone was cheated by the "true siths" or by the force i think that it could be Revan.... provocation hihi )

 

 

 

 

for the beauty... for a man is more difficult to "recognize" and speak of the beauty of another man, i have some problems too with that , for a woman i see that is generally different as they are more inclined to discuss and appreciate the beauty of other wimen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Force may set up a destiny, but it is also maleable, and choice plays a key part. If not, then the Jedi rules would be worthless. The Destiny may come, but how and when, and if it's what we expect, are unknown, until it happens.

 

Kreia's idea of evolution is a Nazi theology based idea: all inferior die.

 

The Force would not seek balance if people didn't choose sides. If all were neutral in the first place, then the Force would be calm, but that would be boring, wouldn't it? Besides, it's Human nature (and Nature's nature: look at the way rocks pile up) to seek balance. The Force is just this principle given a supernatural whirl.

 

Keep it coming, Zilod, I enjoy this discussion.

[Zilod]

The Force may set up a destiny, but it is also maleable, and choice plays a key part. If not, then the Jedi rules would be worthless. The Destiny may come, but how and when, and if it's what we expect, are unknown, until it happens.

 

Kreia's idea of evolution is a Nazi theology based idea: all inferior die.

 

The Force would not seek balance if people didn't choose sides. If all were neutral in the first place, then the Force would be calm, but that would be boring, wouldn't it? Besides, it's Human nature (and Nature's nature: look at the way rocks pile up) to seek balance. The Force is just this principle given a supernatural whirl.

 

Keep it coming, Zilod, I enjoy this discussion.

 

I don't think is so malleable... look at what happens...

Revan enter in war to stop the true sith and malak(lure by the dark side of the force) stop him throwing is plan out of window and creating the base for the destruction of the jedis.

 

Nihilus is created and proceed to the extermination of all jedi (and is not created by Traya, he is probably created by Revan and by the Exile)

 

Mandalorian wars and Jedi wars are made to destabilize the republic and make jedis vulnerable (when Kreia says that the republic is a shell for the jedi order and all the discussion about about the fact that where the jedi the target of the other wars)

 

first 2 episodes

Anakin is born on tatooine as a slave and by luck is found by Qui-Gon

 

The jedi council refuse to train Anakin but at the end of EP1 he becomes Kenobi's padawan

 

Anakin's mother (who even in EP1 is felt as a "weakness" by the council) is captured and killed by tuskens, beginning the process of fall

 

Even if Amidala is fighting to not enter in war the resolution is approved (when she is not on coruscant) and the war, as the jedi civil war, will weaken both the republic and the jedis preparing the path for the jedi destruction.

 

All of this is made regardless of the choices of someone that become pointless, all is pointing to an inevitable destiny where all the choices are twisted.

 

 

and i don't agree with the vision of the Nazi philosopy, who is different than Nietzsche Ubermensch, the idea of a man that can express himself and is able to change the world around him is not itself an "evil" idea.

 

I think that one as Gandi and Martin Luther King can be considered positive example of what a overman can be, as with their example where able to change the world and to bring a positive evolution.

I think that there the main problem is when the overman become so important to annihilate the importance of the humanity itself putting himself above the morality and of the "good" and evolution he should bring.

 

Even the chatolic doctrine for example have some points of contact with that, the development of our own talents is not so distant to what Kreia is pointing at, i think that what makes the difference is what move this Man.

 

If an overman act in an optic of service, to improve the humanity with a creative process that makes the ones around him to evole here that we have a positive man, but if the overman act for his own interest and greed, regardless of the ones around him we end up with a "monster" as it happened with nazi doctrine.

 

I think that Kreia and the game is pointing to first example, a positive overman, the Exile is an overman that should free the humanity from his enslavement and to permit him to evolve and grow.

 

I see Nihilus is another overman that incarnate the second model, the bad one, he put himself above all others and all he does is for himself "to satisfy his hunger" and Kreia is the first that want to destroy this egocentric abominion.

 

 

(also as i don't remember too much about Nietzsche philosopy () i hope that someone will correct my tought about Nietzsche if they demonstrate totally out of point, but still i think that Kreia is pointing to a positive model that will improve all the humanity)

[The Great Phantom]

Notice how everybody agreed on one thing: What happened to the Exile was bad. Very Bad. Everyone that knows anything except Kreia agrees with this.

 

As for her strengthening thing: If only the strong survive, but are deafened to the essence of Life, then what's the point?

 

I couldn't make out the rest of your post, so if I missed something, lemme know.

[Zilod]

Notice how everybody agreed on one thing: What happened to the Exile was bad. Very Bad. Everyone that knows anything except Kreia agrees with this.

 

If you are referring to the experience on Malachor i think that even Kreia understand what the Exile have suffered, i see that when she speak to the jedi council (before killing them )

 

If you are referring of the fact that the Exile is severed from the force i disagree...

Only the council (end the Exile) see this as a bad thing, they see the exile as deaf, blind and incomplete, but they really can't understand him.

 

I think in this case is very important what Visas says after dantooine... something like: "they saw you as the death of the force, i see you as the hope for the livings"

 

I think that what happens in the game is a process of enlightment to makes the exile understand what he really is.

 

 

As for her strengthening thing: If only the strong survive, but are deafened to the essence of Life, then what's the point?

Why only the strong should survive? I think that what Kreia consider strenght is the ability to fight to improve our condition and to resolve our problems, (expressing ourselves).

Kreia is also not considering the force as the essence of life, yes the force is bounded to life but is not its essence, i think this is the vision of the jedi and is for that that they can't understand the Exile, they just see the death in him and for them he is a deathbringer.... Atris is quite clear about that... she says something like "he is dead on malachor and he continue to die".

 

I couldn't make out the rest of your post, so if I missed something, lemme know.

In the other post i was trying to show how in my opinon Kreia and the model she propose is a positive and creative one and the eventual point of contacts with a positive overman who is different than an egoistic (nazi) one incarned by Nihilus.

 

 

mmm also maybe is better to move on a new topic, we are going way OT.

[The Great Phantom]

Well, she was positive, in a twisted way. Thanks for clearing a few things up.

 

Kreia's plot was not good, but the Exile theme was cool, but nobody ever does it again, except perhaps on a Nihilus level... Have you heard my helicopter analogy??? It covers a lot we've discussed.

 

The Exile is outside of the Force, but still is involved in it, to an extent. Besides, Revan needs the help of a paradox, right about now...

 

Kreia was twisted from her original goal, and I don't think she went about doing things the right way, even with the right ideas.

 

An LS Exile (in my case) would have seen the wisdom of the Council, and submitted (like it would have helped, it probably would have been like Nihilus trying to feed on him/her). I don't see the Exile as Death, but Hope (I like Visas, ok??? , but not as much as Bastila ). He shows that anything is endurable, with the right attitude. Kreia saw him as a way to get revenge on the Jedi, and this twisted her reason.

 

Let's leave it at this for now...

[Zilod]

No i don't think that Kreia seeks revenge, or she have not to die and the story could have ended with the council or Nihilus death

 

her goal is to forge the Exile not to kill the ones that betrayed her

 

about the council she says that in first person

 

if you kill the council she says that she was not seeking revenge, yes she wanted to show them their blindness and that to be done by one of her students, in no way she wanted to kill them.

 

even more important in that dialogue she show how she hate the "violence" of the war and of death...

 

If the exile begin to speak about killing all his enemies turning out to be a sadic tool of destruction then she tells him that he have not understood anything and that he just become a sterile assassin and murderer.

 

(evenually i can quote the dialogue, but as my english is crappy better to hear that directly, is the first part of the dialogue after the exile just killed the council, there is also a bug in LS that make this happens, if you ask to the council if they see the death in you then you should get the bug and be able to experience the DS part of the enclave. this is a very interesting dialogue that explain a lot about Kreia, the Exile and what she expect from him)

 

(aaa i didn't saw the helicopter analogy can you repost it?)

[radical]

Actually as Kreia said it's all about the exile, and so are Kreia's goals. She wanted a lot of things, but I believe most of all to train someone really great, powerful and of course someone she could control. She used the exile in many ways, but her relation to the exile is one of a mother-child, and ultimatly she is proud of him/her.

[Helton]

She wanted a lot of things, but I believe most of all to train someone really great, powerful and of course someone she could control.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No. To be truly free one must release themselves of all influences. Kreia was an influence, and she controlled him. That is why she had to die. If she wanted to control him it would never have been necessary for her to die.

[Planeforger]

Actually as Kreia said it's all about the exile, and so are Kreia's goals. She wanted a lot of things, but I believe most of all to train someone really great, powerful and of course someone she could control. She used the exile in many ways, but her relation to the exile is one of a mother-child, and ultimatly she is proud of him/her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Or maybe during her travels with the Exile, the Exile's bonding caused her to change her goals, making her want to fight/sacrifice herself/whatever for the Exile. Same thing happens with the other characters.

 

This was the second question:  The droid factory should have been under the abandoned military base on Telos, right?

 

Yes, the droid factory was in the sublevel on Telos. I kind of guessed it when I saw the damaged HK droid that takes a few steps and explodes in one of the corridors of the base.

You can download the files for the factory and play them through. They are interesting, but partly unfinished.

[phiont]

You can download the files for the factory and play them through. They are interesting, but partly unfinished.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Planeforger.

Where are they hosted?

 

(w00t)

[Planeforger]

Where are they hosted?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.anderson4/Modules.rar

for the modules

 

http://home.alltel.net/jls31/saves5.html

for a save game from the start of the area (saves time with console commands and stuff).

[radical]

I was a bit tired to explain what i really think about kreia, but here goes...

 

Kreia had two important goals in my vision. She wanted power, and what other is power, than the possibility to truly decide, to have freedom of choice. The more areas you can influence, the more power you have; the problem only is, if the force has a will so powerful, then you will never be able to have true power. She saw an undoing of this rule, she saw the true wound in the force: the exile. She immediatly realised that the exile is not bound to the force, and he is not so by his own free will ( this is the difference between Nihilus and the exile ). Only the exile could become truly powerful; and the exile represented that what she could never be. Afterwards as a parent who wants his/her child to overcome them she taught the exile, because she loved him, as a mother loves a child. She also used him, but her main goal was to carve something out of the exile that she could never become.

 

The reason why she knew she would have to be slain by the exile, is that the exile needed no weakness after venturing to the unknown regions, and at the moment of her death she could be truly proud of her pupil, the greatest she ever trained, and she could die knowing that her greatest has not left her, like the others did.

 

The world of KotOR is truly amaising because of Kreia: finally we have a "not so evil" sith lord, finally we can view this world in colours, not in plain black and white! If we wern't discussing about jedi, I'd just say, she's human too.

[The Great Phantom]

Here's my basic Helicopter analogy, with explanations. I posted this in a discussion about how the Force doesn't control the Exile, which is PARTLY true.

 

The Exile is a hole in the Force, which is like seeing a charging herd of cattle headed right towards your primitive settlement, but the Exile is in a helicopter. He's on a totally different level, and can seem unnatural to the untrained eye. BUT, he can lower himself to just over the ground, and aim his gun at either the settlement or the herd, which is what he does when he reties himself to the Force. He's in it now, and is involved, but can 'pull out' whenever he needs to.

 

Nihilus is a hole in both the Force and Life, which is why he seems to be an extreme Exile: He fills in both gaps, with the connection between the Force and peoples' lives. Visas elaborates on this some.

Therefore, Nihilus is a high-speed bomber. He's much more threatening, and is 'large' enough to only notice the big things: the settlements, and maybe the herd. BUT, the Helicopter, if well practiced, can give the Bomber heck if he flies low enough, to 'feed'. The Bomber also fits Nihilus because if he 'stops', then he'll 'fall' to his death. He is already 'dead', because he was revived on Malachor V. He needs to fill in both spaces, or suffer, whereas the Exile only lost the Force, and is a vacuum that picks it up wherever he is able.

 

Well, that is a watered down and modified (to fit the discussion) version of my Helicopter analogy. Some points need tweaking, but it's served its purpose in many discussions.

 

:ph34r:

[The Great Phantom]

I was a bit tired to explain what i really think about kreia, but here goes...

 

Kreia had two important goals in my vision. She wanted power, and what other is power, than the possibility to truly decide, to have freedom of choice. The more areas you can influence, the more power you have; the problem only is, if the force has a will so powerful, then you will never be able to have true power. She saw an undoing of this rule, she saw the true wound in the force: the exile. She immediatly realised that the exile is not bound to the force, and he is not so by his own free will ( this is the difference between Nihilus and the exile ). Only the exile could become truly powerful; and the exile represented that what she could never be. Afterwards as a parent who wants his/her child to overcome them she taught the exile, because she loved him, as a mother loves a child. She also used him, but her main goal was to carve something out of the exile that she could never become.

 

The reason why she knew she would have to be slain by the exile, is that the exile needed no weakness after venturing to the unknown regions, and at the moment of her death she could be truly proud of her pupil, the greatest she ever trained, and she could die knowing that her greatest has not left her, like the others did.

 

The world of KotOR is truly amaising because of Kreia: finally we have a "not so evil" sith lord, finally we can view this world in colours, not in plain black and white! If we wern't discussing about jedi, I'd just say, she's human too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

She did show Sith-ish traits at the very end, but she was twisted by her anger at pretty much every side. That is why we see more grey: She hates the Jedi for taking away humanity; she hates the Sith for being inhuman. Same things, on different ends of the spectrum. She started off with good intentions, but these became twisted into a hate for the Force itself, on which all life relies upon.

 

I do think that she 'loved' the Exile, but that was because she saw Choice. While Visas and Handmaiden (and even Atris; shall we even mention Malak???) all admit that there is choice (The Force controls, but is controlable. You have to listen...). Malak does it in anguish at his choices, as does Atris. Visas and Handmaiden say it in terms of redemption.

 

After all, if there was no choice, then the Jedi Code would be worthless. They seek balance, but do not say that the Force controls EVERYTHING. As said before, who knows what Destiny is until the Choices have been made? "The Future is always in motion."

 

Over all, I think Kreia hates Revan's fall. She tries to rationalize it as many things (I prefer her sacrifice), but in the end, Revan was the final string. She grew sick of it all, and came up with the Plot...

 

Well, judging by the time, and the current Stock Market, not to mention oil prices, there's my $20.99 (from 2 cents... Economy stinks right now. )

[radical]

I accept your analogy, but i have a different vision of the Force-exile relation

 

During the games and the movies, the force was explained many times, never before as something so complex as in k2. The force is a very controversial thing. During the games it was said the force has a will of its own, and that it has three major sides: l, or d, or simply the absence of it. Of course the will of the force might compromise the free will of life (by life I mean all kind of aware life: Jedi, and simple humans as well), that means that characters, have no real choice, and this is untrue, for the games are all about your choice. To give an explanation to this, I might say, that Nietzsche

[Ace]

I'm glad a couple people like the little "what if" thingie I wrote up. It's nothing compared to what the real dialog probably would have been like though...

[The Great Phantom]

It says in game that Nihilus must feed to sustain his hunger, and that he was revived on Malachor V. This leads one to believe he is dead.

 

Radical, you sound like one of the Vong books, trying to explain the Force scientifically. :ph34r:

 

The Force has a will, but merely because Sentience has a will. The Force would be neutral, if those connected to it were, as well. We all know that this is blatantly against human nature. Just pointing this out.

[radical]

I do try to scientificate (i do wonder if such word exists) the force, but it is easier for me to interpret it this way.

 

The force has a will, but i never said it is concious, it is just trying to balance, and this process of forever balancing is majorly uneffected at a global level by the concious will of those connected to it.

[radical]

And yes it is against human nature, as experienced in the real world

[The Great Phantom]

Well, I'm in an anological mood, so I'll compare the Force to Rocks.

 

Dump a pile of rocks off of a cliff, and they'll pile up JUST right. They'll be at the very edge of collapse, with out actually collapsing. However, with the SLIGHTEST disturbance (Some moron trying to climb up them, for example ) will send them all tumbling, carrying anything on them to their inevitable death.

 

This, in my mind, is a decent example of the Force and its Balance.

 

Keep in mind that Sci-Fi and Fantasy is usually based on real life events and principles, and we see Nature embodied in the Force. But, in the spirit of Star Wars: "Size matters not." I rest my case.

[radical]

I believe that at the base of our difference of opinions lies a different type of interpretation of the force and fate. Easily put: you like to explain the phenomena via comparisons ( analogies ), whilst i try to explain things in a global scientific way.

 

I do wonder however if GL ever thought this much about his universe as the people on this forum do?...and should i dare: does he understand his universe best?

[The Great Phantom]

I doubt it. He's busy making millions of bucks, while we're here at midnight talking about pixels.

 

I think that our ideas mean the same thing, but different choices of words...

 

I like analogies and Homeric Similes... They're fun to play around with.

[The Great Phantom]

Come on Zilod, what do you have to say?

[radical]

I agree, we did kind of say the same things...

 

btw did you like the movies? or what do you think, which's story is better: kotor or the movies? or can they even be compared?