The Kreia/Kae Question

[Grant Dempsey]

Oh...and...I thought that the Handmaiden that you talk to in the Secret Acad. (the 'last Handmaiden') is The Handmaiden? - ie, if you're male, she joins you later when you leave the Academy - if you're female, she does not, and that's all. If that's the case, then yes, as a female Exile you do meet the Handmaiden, if briefly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right. That was the Handmaiden. Whether or not the Exile was male or female, he/she still ended up at least meeting (or at least had the option of meeting) both Handmaiden and Disciple. The Exile's gender only actually determined which character joined the crew thereafter.

[Grant Dempsey]

What I'm wondering about is what exactly Kreia meant when she addressed Disciple as "betrayer" as well.

 

Before playing through the game for the second time, having played through as a male character the first time, I'd thought that the way "betrayal" was worked into Handmaiden's sidestory (including in Kreia's comments about her) served as potential evidence toward the theory that Kreia was Master Arren Kae (particularly with the Echani's belief in "disloyalty" being a trait that could be passed down through bloodlines and whatnot). The fact that it was worked into Disciple's sidestory, too, when Disciple had no apparent relation to Kreia other than having simply recognized her (probably just because he had seen her at the Jedi Academy he attended years ago or something), kind of worked against that idea about Handmaiden, though.

 

I don't exactly understand what it was that Kreia was referring to when she called Disciple "betrayer" either, though. He turned away from the Jedi Order after the Exile first left to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, but he didn't turn against the Jedi Order or betray any oath to it, as far as I knew. Hell, he still seemed to outwardly support the Jedi Order. Did Kreia simply consider his turning away from the Jedi Order a betrayal of his "destiny" or something along those lines? In the deleted scene wherein the Force Sensitive heroes (excluding the Exile and Bao-Dur) confronted Darth Traya at the Trayus Core on Malachor V themselves, she once said to Disciple something like, "Do not make this one of the many battles that you have run from." So, I suppose it could be just his leaving the Jedi Order that she was referring to... It just didn't entirely make sense to me.

[pleto4_ryan]

I like the idea and i have to admit many facts get together really well.

But playing devil's advocate some of the facts can be easily seen in different way.

I believe that the Disciple said Revan's master's in chronological order. After all he is a historican. Talking about Revan's first master could mean

Talking about her/his "best" master...Kea

or talking about the first she/he ever had. Kreia.

What talks a lot about this plot is the two names...too much close to each other.

Also, about Kreia not wanting the handmaiden. I had the idea that she didn't want her close to the exile only because his mind would get all "into love" and lose his road...

 

ups...

 

could it mean that after she lost her road dew to love she wanted to protect her "son" the exile from the same mistake...mmm

 

 

Lastly something about the Disciple.

When playing as a male you can see a small cutscene where he tells to someone throught the comlink that "he is here". Is this the betrayal Kreia was talking about.

Was Disciple always working for the republic or the Jedi? Was it that his falling in love with the exile made him forget his "mission" and really join the group?

Just some questions.

[phiont]

First off that Dicsciple quote is wrong, I've played the game well enough to assure you of that and if it is in the game you will have to direct me towards it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Find the dialog.tlk file in your game's root directory, open it with WordPad and search for the quote.

 

...if Kreia is Kae why would she be exiled twice. She was exiled for her teachings only then to be exiled yet again for having a child. That doesn't make much sense to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is only Kreia who says she was exiled because of her teachings. However, she has been known to lie.

Besides, I doubt the writers would have her actually admitting that she was exiled for having a child if that were the case.

 

Like I said on page 1, there's no proof that Kreia was Kae. However, the theory hasn't been disproven, either.

 

The story goes out of it's way a number of times to identify Master Kae as having taught alongside the Jedi Masters we knew from KotOR I. The story also places someone who has changed her name to Kreia in that same group, around the same time, with the same Padawan (Revan) and with exactly the same fate - presumed killed at Malachor. So when Handmaiden mentioned that they never recovered her mother's body I got really suspicious.

[Grant Dempsey]

It is only Kreia who says she was exiled because of her teachings.  However, she has been known to lie. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When was it that Kreia said this, by the way? I thought I'd heard all of her dialogue, but I don't recall her ever mentioning why she was exiled, or even whether or not she was exiled in the first place (as opposed to just having left the Jedi Order)...

[wannabealoser125]

It seems like the question (#1) at the beiging of this forum seems to have been passed, but I didnt see anyone write this (unless I somehow missed it in 11 pages)

 

Its easy enough to answer the question about weither Kreia is Handmaiden's mother. Just look at the Handmaidens face and compare it to Kreia. I havent personaly compared thier faces because Im playing female charactor so I cant exactly make them stand next to eachother. So it can prove that theory right or wronge simple enough.

 

"I bare the face of my mother" - Handmaiden ^_^

[Strika]

I highly doubt kae and Kreia were the same person but its a possibility and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But honestly, I think Kreia and Kae are two completley different masters who trained Revan. When kreia spoke of her i got the feeling that they were close friends or maybe even related, but not the same person.We learn that Revan had "many" masters. Many could be 5, or 10, or 15, we dont know. Its not specified. The fact that Revan had so many masters is cool .

[phiont]

When was it that Kreia said this, by the way? I thought I'd heard all of her dialogue, but I don't recall her ever mentioning why she was exiled, or even whether or not she was exiled in the first place (as opposed to just having left the Jedi Order)...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kreia tells the Exile, "...Atris and the others blamed me, sentenced me. They believed me responsible for Revan's fall." And, at the bottom of one of the load screens you can read, "Jedi who have turned from the Order are either imprisoned or sent into exile." I suppose there's little doubt that Kreia turned from the Order, so just add two and two.

 

Its easy enough to answer the question about weither Kreia is Handmaiden's mother. Just look at the Handmaidens face and compare it to Kreia.  I havent personaly compared thier faces because Im playing female charactor so I cant exactly make them stand next to eachother. So it can prove that theory right or wronge simple enough.

"I bare the face of my mother" - Handmaiden ^_^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. There's likely a huge age difference between Kreia and Handmaiden making it difficult to compare.

2. Kreia's face is mostly covered making it difficult to compare.

3. Handmaiden only says she honours her mothers face to explain why she looks different from the sisters. She never actually saw her mother.

4. Disciple indicates that Kreia's face has changed much when he tells her, "I know you - not even the markings of the dark side can hide it."

[phiont]

Question: How did Handmaiden end up getting the Jedi robes of her mother, Master Arren Kae?

 

Perhaps they were left to Handmaiden when her father, General Yusanis, died. But how did he get them? We know that he followed Arren Kae to fight the Mandalorians and according to Handmaiden, "She died in the battle that shattered Malachor V, and her body was never recovered." Doesn't it seem strange that Arren Kae's Jedi robes were recovered, but not her body?

 

Perhaps Arren Kae didn't die at all. Perhaps she simply fell to the dark side where she would have no further need of Jedi robes. And how would witnessing Arren Kae's fall to the dark side have affected General Yusanis?

 

"When my father returned from the Mandalorian Wars, he walked as you do now. There was something wounded inside him. He did not speak of what had happened there. And with us, he was silent. Changed." -- Handmaiden to Exile

[phiont]

The following remarks by HK-47 lend further support to the theory that Kae (Kreia) survived Malachor because she was one of Revan's strongest supporters:

 

HK-47 to the Exile:

 

"Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.  I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters.

 

Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V.  What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic.

[kalimeeri]

Another significant point is brought out by Exile, when he asks Kreia why he has never heard her name mentioned in any of the archives or by the Jedi Council. He certainly should have. I don't think 'Kreia' existed before Malachor.

 

Her anger at Exile's attention to Handmaiden (and the possibility of his training) may not be just a desire to protect him, but Handmaiden as well. If she hates all that the Jedi and the Force stand for, she would not want her daughter anywhere near either. That's why the Echani seemed a perfect place to leave her.

 

The dialogue points in this game tend to be subtle, letting you make your own conclusions. There are few flat-out statements, yet everything that is said is important. There simply is a great deal too much coincidence surrounding Arren Kae and Kreia, and as Kreia says, 'Coincidences are rare.'

[phiont]

Another significant point is brought out by Exile, when he asks Kreia why he has never heard her name mentioned in any of the archives or by the Jedi Council.  He certainly should have.  I don't think 'Kreia' existed before Malachor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And near the end, Atris says, "Kreia? Oh... that is not her name."

[vadrillan]

...as in- it's really Darth Traya.

 

Interesting theory though, and as you say, not totally disproved yet.

And, unfortunately, impossible to prove.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

...as in- it's really Darth Traya.

 

Interesting theory though, and as you say, not totally disproved yet.

And, unfortunately, impossible to prove.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

She would have to have a Jedi name too. If it wasnt Kreia,then Atris must have known her as something else.

 

The Kae theory has a lot going for it.

[phiont]

When was it that Kreia said this, by the way? I thought I'd heard all of her dialogue, but I don't recall her ever mentioning why she was exiled, or even whether or not she was exiled in the first place (as opposed to just having left the Jedi Order)...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've just remembered that the whole idea of Kreia having been exiled comes more from what the Exile asks her in the following dialog:

 

Exile: "If the council cast you out, how come Atris and none of the Jedi Masters mentioned you?"

 

Kreia: Ignorance... and perhaps they do not remember, or care. It is of no consequence to me, or to them.

 

Exile: You are lying.

 

Kreia: Am I? Then perhaps you should know... there are techniques in the Force, where one can cloud the memory of others, make their presence so small as to be unnoticed. And on the worlds where we have encountered these Jedi... there is much life and death, where sensing such things is difficult.

 

By the way, this is where Kreia practically confessed that she has been able to cloud the minds of any Jedi Masters they've met so that they would not recognise her. This explains why Vrook did not recognise her in the crystal cave or Khoonda and Kavar did not recognise her on Onderon. However, both of them recognised her as soon as she addressed them in the rebuilt enclave.

[phiont]

...as in- it's really Darth Traya.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not so sure about that. For the cut scene of Kreia departing Atris' meditation room the developer inserted the following:

 

{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a sequence of Kreia leaving the holocron chamber along the walkway, the door open behind her. She is alone, and Traya cannot be seen. There should be the sense that something terrible has happened, but the player cannot see.}

 

I assumed this meant that Kreia had converted Atris into the new Darth Traya. There is also the following dialog:

 

Kreia: Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn. You have bathed in the knowledge of the Sith. But there is not enough truth in such teachings... but it will be a step for you.

 

Atris: How did it happen?

 

Kreia: Search your heart. It was never battle that called to you. Never battle that caused you to fall. Let us say that Malachor V has touched many things, and it casts its echoes still.

 

Atris: Why did he betray me?

[AlaricQelDroma]

...as in- it's really Darth Traya.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not so sure about that. For the cut scene of Kreia departing Atris' meditation room the developer inserted the following:

 

{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a sequence of Kreia leaving the holocron chamber along the walkway, the door open behind her. She is alone, and Traya cannot be seen. There should be the sense that something terrible has happened, but the player cannot see.}

 

I assumed this meant that Kreia had converted Atris into the new Darth Traya. There is also the following dialog:

 

Kreia: Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn. You have bathed in the knowledge of the Sith. But there is not enough truth in such teachings... but it will be a step for you.

 

Atris: How did it happen?

 

Kreia: Search your heart. It was never battle that called to you. Never battle that caused you to fall. Let us say that Malachor V has touched many things, and it casts its echoes still.

 

Atris: Why did he betray me?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wait, here's an addition! Kreia stated to you in one of your dialogue options with her that the Betrayer is female was "unknown", but that she would appear!

 

I bet the "Betrayer" is Atris, uptillion-to-one :D

[Grant Dempsey]

...as in- it's really Darth Traya.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not so sure about that. For the cut scene of Kreia departing Atris' meditation room the developer inserted the following:

 

{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a sequence of Kreia leaving the holocron chamber along the walkway, the door open behind her. She is alone, and Traya cannot be seen. There should be the sense that something terrible has happened, but the player cannot see.}

 

I assumed this meant that Kreia had converted Atris into the new Darth Traya. There is also the following dialog:

 

Kreia: Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn. You have bathed in the knowledge of the Sith. But there is not enough truth in such teachings... but it will be a step for you.

 

Atris: How did it happen?

 

Kreia: Search your heart. It was never battle that called to you. Never battle that caused you to fall. Let us say that Malachor V has touched many things, and it casts its echoes still.

 

Atris: Why did he betray me?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wait, here's an addition! Kreia stated to you in one of your dialogue options with her that the Betrayer is female was "unknown", but that she would appear!

 

I bet the "Betrayer" is Atris, uptillion-to-one :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think "Darth Traya" was ultimately meant to be both of them. No, I'm not referring to the cut content, I'm talking about the final version of the game.

 

For the purpose of the Exile's confrontation with Master Atris, I believe she had indeed become the "new" Darth Traya. Kreia even spoke of Master Atris as "Darth Traya" at the Trayus Core on Malachor V (when asked, "Why did you destroy Atris?").

 

However, remember what Kreia said through the holocrons when (if) the Exile delivered the fatal blow to Master Atris. She said something along the lines of, "There must always be a Darth Traya. If she is not it, then I must take on that role, and prepare you for the times to come." Once Master Atris was either killed or simply beaten, I believe Kreia had then retaken that moniker for the purpose of the Exile's final confrontation with her at the Trayus Core on Malachor V.

[AlaricQelDroma]

...as in- it's really Darth Traya.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not so sure about that. For the cut scene of Kreia departing Atris' meditation room the developer inserted the following:

 

{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a sequence of Kreia leaving the holocron chamber along the walkway, the door open behind her. She is alone, and Traya cannot be seen. There should be the sense that something terrible has happened, but the player cannot see.}

 

I assumed this meant that Kreia had converted Atris into the new Darth Traya. There is also the following dialog:

 

Kreia: Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn. You have bathed in the knowledge of the Sith. But there is not enough truth in such teachings... but it will be a step for you.

 

Atris: How did it happen?

 

Kreia: Search your heart. It was never battle that called to you. Never battle that caused you to fall. Let us say that Malachor V has touched many things, and it casts its echoes still.

 

Atris: Why did he betray me?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wait, here's an addition! Kreia stated to you in one of your dialogue options with her that the Betrayer is female was "unknown", but that she would appear!

 

I bet the "Betrayer" is Atris, uptillion-to-one :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think "Darth Traya" was ultimately meant to be both of them. No, I'm not referring to the cut content, I'm talking about the final version of the game.

 

For the purpose of the Exile's confrontation with Master Atris, I believe she had indeed become the "new" Darth Traya. Kreia even spoke of Master Atris as "Darth Traya" at the Trayus Core on Malachor V (when asked, "Why did you destroy Atris?").

 

However, remember what Kreia said through the holocrons when (if) the Exile delivered the fatal blow to Master Atris. She said something along the lines of, "There must always be a Darth Traya. If she is not it, then I must take on that role, and prepare you for the times to come." Once Master Atris was either killed or simply beaten, I believe Kreia had then retaken that moniker for the purpose of the Exile's final confrontation with her at the Trayus Core on Malachor V.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, thanks for reinforcing what I just said

 

As I said: "Master" Atris is the Betrayer that Kreia talks to you about when you ask her about the Sith that you face

 

Heh...I don't care about the cut material, because it's just plainly obvious that Atris was to become Traya because Kreia was about to die, and Kreia knew that, and knew she could use the Holocrons that Atris sorrounded herself with to convert her

 

There is an alternative Traya model/skin, she really looks like a Dark Side version of Atris, too...

 

Kreia had two options: Create a new Darth Traya, or make damned sure the Exile was trained well enough to survive the aftermath of her death.

 

Kreia was dead, and she knew it, those were her two options.

[Grant Dempsey]

Well, thanks for reinforcing what I just said

 

As I said: "Master" Atris is the Betrayer that Kreia talks to you about when you ask her about the Sith that you face

 

Heh...I don't care about the cut material, because it's just plainly obvious that Atris was to become Traya because Kreia was about to die, and Kreia knew that, and knew she could use the Holocrons that Atris sorrounded herself with to convert her

 

There is an alternative Traya model/skin, she really looks like a Dark Side version of Atris, too...

 

Kreia had two options: Create a new Darth Traya, or make damned sure the Exile was trained well enough to survive the aftermath of her death.

 

Kreia was dead, and she knew it, those were her two options.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wasn't just reinforcing what you said. Yes, I believe Master Atris had been "converted" into Darth Traya or however you prefer to word it. (Speaking of which, if you "don't care about the cut material," why, then, should the alternate model/skin for Master Atris interest you?)

 

I was simply arguing that they were both "Darth Traya". Not simply in the past, in Kreia's case, but in the present as well. In other words, I don't believe that Kreia was necessarily referring only to Master Atris when she spoke of "the betrayer".

[AlaricQelDroma]

Well, thanks for reinforcing what I just said

 

As I said: "Master" Atris is the Betrayer that Kreia talks to you about when you ask her about the Sith that you face

 

Heh...I don't care about the cut material, because it's just plainly obvious that Atris was to become Traya because Kreia was about to die, and Kreia knew that, and knew she could use the Holocrons that Atris sorrounded herself with to convert her

 

There is an alternative Traya model/skin, she really looks like a Dark Side version of Atris, too...

 

Kreia had two options: Create a new Darth Traya, or make damned sure the Exile was trained well enough to survive the aftermath of her death.

 

Kreia was dead, and she knew it, those were her two options.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wasn't just reinforcing what you said. Yes, I believe Master Atris had been "converted" into Darth Traya or however you prefer to word it. (Speaking of which, if you "don't care about the cut material," why, then, should the alternate model/skin for Master Atris interest you?)

 

I was simply arguing that they were both "Darth Traya". Not simply in the past, in Kreia's case, but in the present as well. In other words, I don't believe that Kreia was necessarily referring only to Master Atris when she spoke of "the betrayer".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hm, I am always open to alternative theory-craftings

 

Interesting, but I don't beleive Kreia would have been referring to herself with that particular line, because it would have given her away, Kreia and the Exile could read each others emotions and thoughts, you know

[Grant Dempsey]

Interesting, but I don't beleive Kreia would have been referring to herself with that particular line, because it would have given her away, Kreia and the Exile could read each others emotions and thoughts, you know

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was never stated that the Exile and Kreia could read each other's thoughts and emotions. Only that their bond transmitted physical feelings, senses, power, and so on. If they were able to read one another's thoughts, particularly to the extent at which you're claiming (that the Exile could "read" the truth behind anything Kreia ever said to him), then the Exile should have been able to sense Kreia's manipulations very early on.

 

So, why wasn't the Exile able to sense that Kreia was referring to Master Atris with that particular line, then? What difference would it make to their bond whether she was referring to herself or Master Atris?

[AlaricQelDroma]

Interesting, but I don't beleive Kreia would have been referring to herself with that particular line, because it would have given her away, Kreia and the Exile could read each others emotions and thoughts, you know

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was never stated that the Exile and Kreia could read each other's thoughts and emotions. Only that their bond transmitted physical feelings, senses, power, and so on. If they were able to read one another's thoughts, particularly to the extent at which you're claiming (that the Exile could "read" the truth behind anything Kreia ever said to him), then the Exile should have been able to sense Kreia's manipulations very early on.

 

So, why wasn't the Exile able to sense that Kreia was referring to Master Atris with that particular line, then? What difference would it make to their bond whether she was referring to herself or Master Atris?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I was never taken in by her rantings, not even on my first play-through...I learned all about manipulation during K1, so I was very well prepared for Kreia's clever little manipulations

 

Oh, and the Exile did sense her manipulations, and her true meaning was revealed during the venture through Ludo Kresh's Tomb in the Shyrack Caves

 

The Exile even had the option to say Kreia is manipulating him/her all along

[Jad'en]

Heres something that screws your theory. The Exile knew her mother. You can get the conversation where you tell her that her mother was a jedi and a great warrior without talking to Kreia or Handmaiden about it beforehand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is BS

 

When he asks Kreia about the Handmaidens mother he goes "Are you sure - i dont remember her"

[@Li3n]

Well, I was never taken in by her rantings, not even on my first play-through...I learned all about manipulation during K1, so I was very well prepared for Kreia's clever little manipulations

 

Oh, and the Exile did sense her manipulations, and her true meaning was revealed during the venture through Ludo Kresh's Tomb in the Shyrack Caves

 

The Exile even had the option to say Kreia is manipulating him/her all along

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah he probably did. But how much he cared? It was kinda obvious that he was feeling the Force again because of her and their bond. And also that whole her death being lethal 4 him.

What really annoyed me was that option after the council on dantooine that goes kinda like : "Kreia was a Sith all along!". For crying out loud she even tells u as much even without influence. Then again maybe the exile hit his head one 2 many times when the Ebon Hawk was drifting in space.