Mandalorian Wars

[SAkida]

*I feel this will gonna be a loooong thread *

 

Ok,so after we discussed about the end,about the plot which doesn't exist,about the lack of information given for the sith lords and so on,there is a one last thing that doesn't fit in: The mandalorian wars.Now this is somewhat a vague topic,so I'll expect everyone to pump out with their specific question here,but for now here are mine:

 

1)For a start: When they started,why,and who led them?I know that in Kotor 1 you get some stories about it from Canderous,but in kotor 2 it's very little info about...

 

2)Ok,Revan and Malak joined the war,fall to the dark side,bla bla bla.There are two things in the end that are contradictory:

a)The fallen revan fought the mandalorians and crushed them at malachor V (see kotor 1 and 2);

b)The Mandalorians were trained by the sith to fight the republic (see kotor2)(this explains their resistance to the force).

 

+The sith were fighting the republic in kotor 1.So taking in consideration all of this,at least one of the above infos can't be true...

 

 

Just to resume the contradiction:

 

Revan vs Mandalorians

Revan and Mandalorians vs Republic

Revan vs Republic

 

In fact the whole thing about revan,you and mandalorian wars is a big nebula...

 

3)What exactly happened at malachor 5?Bao-dur says he made some sort of weapon that crushed everything (planet gravity).How come all the ships were disabled as well....

 

The real question is what happened at malachor 5?...no-one tells anything for sure...

 

4)What on earth is the mass shadow generator supposed to be?You activate it with the remote,fine,but then what? No-one shows what is exactly...

And no,it ain't that big storm-because that is DISABLED and the msass shadow gen is ENABLED.

[Mak-Sim Malinin]

I might be wrong, so you are free to correct me,

 

 

SPOLIER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but as I view It, The "TRUE SITH" made the mandalorians attack the republic, then Revan beat the Mandalorians, and on Malachor 5 found out about the TRUE SITH and why theuy are so dangerous, as it apparently is said that Trayus academy was built by yhe TRUE SITH. So Revan realisd they are a threat to the galaxy, and became the dark lord of the sith out of necesity to control the republic through conquer, and thus make an army good enough to fight the true sith. HE became the Dark Lord of the SITH Empire that was known to the galaxy (so in other words, NOT the TRUE SITH) a he realised that he could not takre control of the republic otherwise, (notice, he didn't destroy industry and infrastructure on the planets he conquered.

 

If the are any mistakes in my understanding, please feel free to correct me

[SAkida]

Hmmm,your point of view is interesting indeed,and does clarify some things,but still leaves some gaps.As the true sith you are talking about were the ones who found refugee on koriban(the true sith lords),and the sith troops that revan leads are trained there....(in kotor 1).Anyway,thanks You did solve some gaps

[Helton]

No, you never meet the "True Sith" in this game, only hear whispers about them from Kreia.

 

Mak-Sim Malinin has it right.

 

Edit: as for Malachor V, the gravity sucks in those ships, Bao-Dur essentially turned the planet into a small Black Hole, from my understanding.

[dufflover]

The whole Sith thing has been developed and explored since the movies. I haven't read the books but I've played all the games, but only a few deal with the force.

 

Movies: Jedi's are people who use the force for good, and Sith use it for evil.

Jedi Knight games: Similar to the movies, except the Force is made more materialistic by saying it is energy you can move, transfer and is emitted at the Valley of the Jedi (hmm, that would've made a better story for K2 now that I mention it), but in the end, the Sith or just evil force users.

(because of the timeline, they are given more freedom to invent stuff)

KotOR 1: Mentions there are "True Sith" who died out long ago and that evil force users just follow their beliefs. Expands on the Dark Side energy thing (like on Dagobah), into Sith temples, Korriban, and a Dark Side object of the StarForge.

KotOR 2: Turns out the True Sith are still alive (I've got a picture of weird looking aliens coming up...), and goes fully literal on Obi Wan and says that the Force holds and binds the galaxy together, and that Malachor V has damaged it. Sounds like those "holes in the fabric Space-Time" stuff you here in sci-fi.

 

 

In the end, I disagree with the path K2 has taken. If Revan was conquering the Republic to strengthen it against the True Sith, then you might as well help the Emperor bring peace and order to the galaxy (ah, Tie Fighter....luv that game)

[KingofThieves]

Were the mandalorians prodded into invading the republic by the real sith? Or was there something else out there, beyond the outer rim, that seeped into the heart of the mandalorians' home-world and poisoned the ground and the seeds which sprung out until everything that walked upon it's earth became aggressive and foul... Just as it had once done to the home worlds of the real sith and the rakatan before it?

 

Was the influence more mystical, something that slowly infected and took hold over generations and eventually conquered worlds- with it's inhabitants having little to no knowledge of it's existence- as it was seemingly motivated only by an infinite hunger for dark side energies?

 

The idea of the star forge had to come from somewhere, and what foul thing would desire it's construction? That could provide the resources to amass unlimited forces so that it's infected ones could conquer worlds and destroy planets- and then go on to conquer more worlds and destroy more planets?

 

Rest assured, there's something out there... lurking in the dark... Something born of the dark side itself, and which teethes on it's mother like a nursing infant always.

 

I think the culprit of all things KotOR is the dark side itself. (w00t) But since you can't destroy that (I think there's a clause in creation that requires some sort of attained balance), there will be a slightly lesser mystical evil that the KotOR folk will take a swing at in KotOR III. And there-after restore the balance between light and dark in the galaxy by assuring a nice, long period of happy time for the republic... Until the next peril presents itself.

[Mak-Sim Malinin]

Wait, I might have just made a mistake. I just played the game and Kreia told me that/enlightened me that the Mandolorian wars were wars of conversion. So maybe Revan found trayus before the Mandolorian wars, learned of the TRUE SITH, and influenced the Mandolorians somehow to attack the republic. And the sole purpose was to convert Jedi into Dark Jedi so he can over-run the republic, and then take the fight to the TRUE SITH.

 

And By TRUE SITH I mean those wierd guys you're slightly mentioned about that live beyond the Outer Rim.

[jedipodo]

Wait, I might have just made a mistake. I just played the game and Kreia told me that/enlightened me that the Mandolorian wars were wars of conversion. So maybe Revan found trayus before the Mandolorian wars, learned of the TRUE SITH, and influenced the Mandolorians somehow to attack the republic. And the sole purpose was to convert Jedi into Dark Jedi so he can over-run the republic, and then take the fight to the TRUE SITH.

 

And By TRUE SITH I mean those wierd guys you're slightly mentioned about that live beyond the Outer Rim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This sounds like a proper solution to all of the contradictions. I think this would explain the motives of Revan much more believable than other theories I have heard so far.

 

Edit: IIRC the chronicles tell that Revan met TRUE SITH on Malachor V and could barely resist the dark energies there.

[Lord Pahakala]

Wait, I might have just made a mistake. I just played the game and Kreia told me that/enlightened me that the Mandolorian wars were wars of conversion. So maybe Revan found trayus before the Mandolorian wars, learned of the TRUE SITH, and influenced the Mandolorians somehow to attack the republic. And the sole purpose was to convert Jedi into Dark Jedi so he can over-run the republic, and then take the fight to the TRUE SITH.

 

And By TRUE SITH I mean those wierd guys you're slightly mentioned about that live beyond the Outer Rim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Or it wasn't Revan. They say that Jedi can see to future, and so can Sith. So what if the true Sith saw what Revan might become and what will happen then. Use Mandalorians to turn Revan to darkside, then use Revan as their tool of darkness to turn all the Jedi to darkside or destroy them. You could also add to the plot, that Revan became aware of that in some point and left to nowhere to be found.

[Drakron]

In the end, I disagree with the path K2 has taken. If Revan was conquering the Republic to strengthen it against the True Sith, then you might as well help the Emperor bring peace and order to the galaxy (ah, Tie Fighter....luv that game)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good taste in games.

 

Also true, this whole "Revan worship" is getting out of hand ... next thing we know we end up having Revan as the "chosen one" or similar crap.

 

Anyway the only thing I can think is that none of the Sith we see in the game are actual Sith, just a bunch of darkside force users with a agenda with the "true Sith" (as people that actually follow the Sith ideals, like Malak) staying hidden from the Republic.

 

Also she could be dead wrong, after all why sould we take the old hag word as "truth"?

 

To me Canderous line over how the Sith contacted the Mandalorians is a screw up, I guess that line was put during SW:KotOR development were Vima Sunrider was to be in Bastila place and so making the game timeline closer to TotJ comics and using Kun war instead of the "Mandalorians War", it makes full sense since Kun DID used the Mandalorians in his war and they never fully recovered from it, also the fact Canderous never mentions they battled the Republic about 50 years before the Mandalorians Wars also at the Sith request indicated he was either ignorant of history or the Mandalorians part on that war never happened in KotOR universe.

[Lord Pahakala]

I thought the Rakatan were the true Sith? Correct me if I'm wrong. Wait, no, don't - I'm right. They invented more than half the stuff that exists in the galaxy, were the first users of the force, created and seeded many planets (Kashyyyk, Dantoine), et cetera. It fits in with the fact that the Rakatan died out, as did the true Sith.

 

I think the Sith Kreia talks about are different.

 

But hey, we'll probably never know - a lot of stuff in that game was both contradictory and unexplored.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, Rakata might be the first ones to use force, either Ligh or Dark, they propably are the ones who originally invented hyperspace travel etc.

 

Sith are humanoid kind of race, as far as I know. They were twisted by ancient Dark Lords that came to their home planet. This is really short version. Longer can be found somewhere on this forum, I don't recall where.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[jedipodo]

I thought the Rakatan were the true Sith? Correct me if I'm wrong. Wait, no, don't - I'm right. They invented more than half the stuff that exists in the galaxy, were the first users of the force, created and seeded many planets (Kashyyyk, Dantoine), et cetera. It fits in with the fact that the Rakatan died out, as did the true Sith.

 

I think the Sith Kreia talks about are different.

 

But hey, we'll probably never know - a lot of stuff in that game was both contradictory and unexplored.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, Rakata might be the first ones to use force, either Ligh or Dark, they propably are the ones who originally invented hyperspace travel etc.

 

Sith are humanoid kind of race, as far as I know. They were twisted by ancient Dark Lords that came to their home planet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, and the "Dark Lords" have been fallen Jedi going into exile.

[Drakron]

I thought the Rakatan were the true Sith? Correct me if I'm wrong. Wait, no, don't - I'm right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are wrong.

 

The Sith were created by the exiled (or fleeing) former jedi that fought the Jedi Order over the use of the Dark Side when they discovered the Sith race and founded the Sith Empire.

 

The Rakata created the Star Forge that used the Dark Side of the Force but using the Dark Side does not meke anyone Sith, just like using the Force does not make anyone a Jedi.

 

The Sith have nothing to do with the Rakata expecialy since BioWare made up the Rakata and the Star Forge out what I belive few references over who intruduced the Hyperdrives.

[The Great Phantom]

The Rakata were killed by a disease (or, that helped lead to their death), and the Sith were masters of alchemy. If you replay KOTOR I and talk to the computer in the Rakatan Temple, he says that the disease could have been created by one of the Slave Races. Just pointing that out.

 

Also in KOTOR I, Canderous says that the Sith gave the Mandalorians a 'True Challenge', or the Republic. I may replay and talk to him about that some more...

 

I would try to answer some of the other questions, but I'm in a hurry.

[AngryTarsier]

In the game Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, which is EU(4000 yrs later)

 

there is a part near the end where you will face 2 enemies one is a sith lord and the other is a force ghost who will posses the fallen sith lord once you defeated it, the force ghost had features very different from that of a human or any alien sentient capable of wielding the force (ie. jedi/sith) the force ghost is known as marka ragnos, is this the TRUE SITH??

 

he wore an armor and used a sword (not vibroblade, or cartosis encrusted metal, and not a light saber) of grayish metal covered with what I guessed to be pure dark side force to duel with my pc who was using a lightsaber.

 

could this guy be the TRUE SITH?? btw the location was the tombs of the ancient sith in korriban

[The Great Phantom]

That was Marka Ragnos, I believe... been half a year since I played that game. He was a half-breed, according to the EU. The True Sith (species) look sorta like that, only they have legs, and don't float around. Ragnos used a scepter because the Lightsaber (once again, drawing from the EU), was a new invention for the Jedi, and the Sith were clear on the far rim of the Galaxy.

[Drakron]

Marka Ragnos was a Dark Lord of the Sith of the Sith Empire (and so the Sith race) for over 100 years, Naga Sadow became the next (and last) Dark Lord of the Sith of the actual Sith Empire.

 

Due to breeding of the fallen Jedi and the Sith race they end up looking like that.

[Drakron]

I forgot about this.

 

The lightsaber was invented by the Jedi after the fallen Jedi left, the Sith used swords that undergone a special Sith alchemy treatment that given lightsaber qualities (deflection and resistence to energy) until the Sith were found by the Republic, only then did the Sith started to use lightsabers.

 

Since Marka Ragnos died before the Republic found the Sith he never used lightsabers.

[jim[beam]]

The lightsaber was invented by the Jedi after the fallen Jedi left, the Sith used swords that undergone a special Sith alchemy treatment that given lightsaber qualities (deflection and resistence to energy) until the Sith were found by the Republic, only then did the Sith started to use lightsabers.

 

No wonder we couldn't find any lightsabers of old Sithmasters in the tombs on Korriban in KOTOR1..heh. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Ice-Cold]

If you talk to HK-47 and get enough Influence with him (or just use the save game editor to get 100 with him right away) he talks about his original master aka Revan, and all about the Mandalorian Wars, and what it really was about.

 

The Mandalorian War wasnt really about the Mandalorians at all, Revan found something at Malachor which made him turn to the darkside, we all know that. But the War was actually about corrupting the Jedi, and turning them to the Darkside, and if they refused, killed them. (thats where HK-47 and the production of the HK-50's came in.. who where turned offline until one of the Dark Lords in K2 decided to turn them on, I assume that was Atris.. since the HK facility is underneath Telos)

 

HK says as well as Kreia, that Revan knew the true was wasnt against the Republic, or the Mandalorians.. It was all about getting ready for the war against the True Sith, that was why Revan wanted the Star Forge, so he could create a large fleet of sith to destroy the true sith.. but then Malak goes and attacks Revans ship, Revan then forgets.. then K1 starts.

 

The Mass Shadow Generator is a weapon that causes the world to collapse on itself, during the battle of malachor, Bao-Dur almost managed to get this thing fully active.. he got his arm blew off before he could fully activate it (i think), and instead of the world blowing up, it killed the mandalorians, and i think some of the republic?.. The world was starting to decay, and I'm not too sure if the Remote/G0-T0 actually activated the generator, or that the planet itself was held together by the force, like Sion, and when Kreia died, it made the planet collapse, i dont really know.

 

After the Mandalorian wars, when Revan and Malak seemed to have left the galaxy. Kreia thought it was her fault for Revans fall, and searched for him on Malachor V, she also was fell to the Darkside, and started an Academy there, taking on students, such as Sion, and Nihilus, who took away her powers, and exiled her. So she wanted to get her own back on them, and the Jedi (I dont understand why the Jedi).

[AngryTarsier]

the jedi took her force powers first, then she came to malachor V where she started draining force from force sensitives much like nihilus, kinda like a force vampire or something... the jedi blamed her for revans actions, they blamed her for her borderline teaching..

[SAkida]

Ooo,the discussion amplified alot. So basicly there are several fronts of discussion here as I see them:

 

1)You all went talking about the 'true sith',but when I said about that contradiction I spoke about the sith (not the true sith) as they are seen in kotor.

 

The fact is that

a)The Sith under Revan's command (*not* the true sith),are literaly responsible for training the mandalorians (or,rather 'breaking' them),and helping them (the mandalorians) fight the republic (according to kotor 2 and fiting most of the kotor 1 war) (revan was also fighting the republic,but for a different agenda,as you said before);

 

b)Paradoxal,Revan went to war initially to fight AGAINST the mandalorians and ended up destroying them all at Malachor V.

This contradicts with a) for several reasons.The most important is that Revan became 'dark' before the destruction of malachor V (and he 'saw' the *true sith* )therefore started the war against the republic,but,if you look at a) and b) then he/she simultaneous fought the mandalorians and helped them (for a limited time) (an year if my calculations are correct).THIS IS A GAP IN THE STORYLINE LOGIC.

 

I know that my english isn't that good,but please,pay attention.There is a big contradiction here between kotor 1 and 2.

 

 

2)Ok,the mass shadow generator couldn't be powered up because bao-dur lost his arm...so?Then how come all died?

 

3)The tomb of naga shadow is on koriban....the home of the true sith lords...QED.

[Drakron]

Unless OE is re-writting BioWare storyline ...

 

Revan ended the war in Mandalor, after it he gone looking for the Star Forge as stated in SW:KotOR.

 

BioWare made a simple story, Revan seen the Star Forge as a tool to help against the Mandalorians and during its search he fallen into the dark side, after Mandalor he continued to look for it intending to use it against the Republic.

 

There is nothing more to it, I am growing a little sick over this "Darth Revan, the anti-hero" revisionist history ...

[SAkida]

I have to agree that the bioware storyline was much more clear and easy to follow....the only responsible for so many gaps and confusions is OB and the ones who told them to make haste...the kotor 2 storyline isn't even a SCRATCH.It is not a story at all.

[Drakron]

Oh ... despite BioWare making many EU errors they got a lot right (at least they dont confuse War Droids with Starfighters).

 

Acording to SW:KotOR Naga Shadow tomb in Korriban is just a empty memorial (he was even presumed dead so it makes some sense) with Naga Sadow real tomb being were its supposed to be ... Yavin IV.