Women in Kotor 2

[LdyShayna]

"Regardless, it's a horrible violation, and a brutal act. If Atton had told my character about it, she might well have spaced Kreia, Dark Side points or no."

 

No one is denying that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, just my clumsy way of trying to re-route the thread. Heh.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Gender discrimination CAN work in both ways. It's realistic that Atton wouldn't admit what had happened to him. Male victims of rape are notoriously reluctant to come forward, while more progress has been made in helping women come forward.

 

That doesn't change the fact that the overwhelming majority of victims of rape are female.

 

"All citizens of the country, both men and women, equally enjoy the protection of the law and enjoy all human, political, economic, social, and cultural rights, in conformity with Islamic criteria. "

 

Can you guess which country's constitution this comes from? Iran. A gender-neutral law still has to be enforced to mean anything.

[Tanuvein]

Gender discrimination CAN work in both ways.  It's realistic that Atton wouldn't admit what had happened to him.  Male victims of rape are notoriously reluctant to come forward, while more progress has been made in helping women come forward.

 

That doesn't change the fact that the overwhelming majority of victims of rape are female.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's funny because it semi-contridicts itself. "Most men never ever ever admit they are raped, but the girls do. But more girls are raped."

 

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I just found it funny

 

Anyway, most males who are raped have it done when they are children, whereas for females its around 14-25 (not a precise number, since I don't feel like looking it up)

[kirottu]

Suzie, now I would feel bad and be mad at all mandkind and all, but you're just woman so your opinion doesn't matter...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You forgot "Don

[Rosbjerg]

And what do you say to every woman in the west who's ever been raped? Assaulted? Murdered? And had the blame assigned to her and her alone?

 

To every woman who's ever been dubbed a **** for enjoying her sexuality? To every woman who doesn't have her health concerns taken seriously because she's "just a nagging woman"? To every woman who has starved herself, injected herself with poison, had bags of sillicone implanted and binged and purged and bleached and shaved and waxed and STILL been told she fails to measure up to standards of beauty?

[/steps off waaaay-OT soapbox]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

and what do you say to the men who has suffered from anorexia and have been ignored because 'real men' don't have that sort of illness!? (that's condescending both genders) and refused medical aid? I don't know where you live but that doesn't happen here to either genders or any race or any religion.. and I have heard that quite a few men are starting to have silicon implants as well, because it's apparently society wish for men to be more muscular! and men feel the same pressure of beauty and/or standards.. trust me!

 

To every woman who was criticised for wearing skirts that were "too short" and tops that were "too low" and clothing that was "too revealing" and been told she DESERVES to be raped? To every woman who has been passed over for promotion purely because of her gender? To every woman who is frigid because she won't sleep with a man and a **** because she will? To every woman who's been denied emergency contraception because of a rape, because of a broken condom, because of the "religous" convictions of the pharamcist? To every woman who has a lower paycheque because of her gender? To every woman who has been patronised and talked down to at every turn because she is a woman? To every woman who is a bitch because she has an opinion, and a mindless idiot because she lacks one? To every woman who is an uppity cow because she dared to stand up for herself?

[/steps off waaaay-OT soapbox]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was once called a homosexual because I didn't want to sleep with a girl .. and I was called that by a former female friend .. so guys are expected to f*** anything and everyone when we have the chance? tell me that's not demeaning my sexuality! please ..

and if women receive a lower paycheque she need only complain to the government and I guarantee you that the company will recieve heavy fines! and the woman in question will be compensated fully! (at least in Denmark)

and no one is refused either medical aid or any kind of prescription simply because of religious convictions! where does that happen??

I have worked under more female bosses than male in my time .. and no one I know has ever questioned their authority! and in many cases companies here are hiring female executives because they are better at controlling groups and keeping them content ..

the only women I know still complaining are the incompetent ones .. who can't get a job because they aren't good enough for it ..

 

it's so easy to blame everyone else .. especially society! people here are rewarded for taking action and responsibility! and I guarantee you that most women here are ceartinly doing that! and they are getting their share of good jobs!

 

Women are not equal

[/steps off waaaay-OT soapbox]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

20 years ago .. yes! .. today - no way!

 

 

edit:

okay just to clarify .. I know that in some places women are being treated extremely poor! and I utterly despise that!! In my mind men and women are equals, and that (seems) to be the case for my countrymen as well .. since it is not a big issue where I live .. of course from time to time women are treated badly here, but so are men .. so therefore it doesn't seem as big an issue for me as other things!

but I just want to say that I am, of course, sympathetic to any problems other countries have with this, and my hope is that such idiotic notions will soon be abandoned both in genders, races, religions and so on!

[Aryanne]

Now to reallly RUB it in.K2 should be called the women strike back not return of the sith lords.

[thepixiesrock]

You forgot "Don

[Althernai]

The handmaiden's naked fighting is silly.  Can you imagine a male character doing the same?  Like, say, in the Mandalorians' battle circle?  They weren't naked.  And don't say it's because in the Mandalorians' culture they wear armour.  It's the developers' decision to include clothed males and naked females that shows gender descrimination.

 

I think you missed a part of the plot here. Talk to Kreia after fighting Handmaiden. To the Echani, such fighting is a courtship ritual. Both men and women take part and they both wear very little. The developers chose to include an Echani female rather than an Echani male. If they had done the opposite, the female Exile would be fighting in underwear. In either case, there is one half-dressed male and one half-dressed female per fight. I don't see any problems here. Or do you believe that including scenes where a male and a female are only dressed in underwear is gender discrimination in and of itself?

[FortranDragon]

The depiction of women (particularly Handmaiden) was raised in the General Discussion forum.  I wanted to post this comment, but as it contains spoilers, I put it here instead.

 

The women of Kotor 2 are stereotyped.  It's not deeply offensive (to me), just a bit disappointing.

 

The handmaiden's naked fighting is silly.  Can you imagine a male character doing the same?  Like, say, in the Mandalorians' battle circle?  They weren't naked.  And don't say it's because in the Mandalorians' culture they wear armour.  It's the developers' decision to include clothed males and naked females that shows gender descrimination.

 

Visas was by far the more worrying case.  A character is shown as a broken wreck, without any will or sense of self, and of course she's female.  And utterly devoted to a male master (I assume Darth Nihilus is male, although correct me if I'm wrong).  And then willing to surrender herself sexually to the male Exile, perhaps the female Exile too.

 

Kreia is a manipulative witch, lying and cheating from the shadows.  And twice we see her defeated by Darth Sion in open combat.  This suggests that males are dominant, women are subordinated, and can only exercise power through manipulation.  Again, a clear gender stereotype.  And frigid of course, as all powerful women are.  I do love the way the voice actress says 'indignities', though.

 

This kind of thing is unavoidable when almost all game developers, and a clear majority of players, are male.  Obsidian aren't being nasty or deliberately discriminatory, just careless.  And the problem is very widespread (the Star Wars films are at least as bad, as is most of the output of Hollywood).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you are looking for discrimination where there is none.

 

---

 

Handmaiden fighting naked is silly? Tell that to the ancient Greek athletes. ;-) They generally competed naked. It is simply a _cultural_ thing for the Echani. You need to view what is happening there through Echani eyes, not our culture's eyes.

 

Don't forget, too, when you fight Handmaiden you're naked, too. It isn't she's naked and you aren't. You're the one meeting her on her terms.

 

---

 

Visas was the last survivor of her world. She was also captured as a young child and raised by Darth Nihilus. Do you really think Darth Nihilus was going to raise her any other way? I kind of doubt a Sith Lord is going to want a spunky, independent-minded underling given the Sith promotion paths. Darth Nihilus took the Jedi custom of removing a child from family influences and twisted it to his own ends. He would want her to be weak and submissive. Until Visas met the Exile I just can't see where she would have been exposed to the type of environment that would help her be a strong willed person.

 

Visas situation is appropriate to the *story*. If you are going to claim discrimination then you are going to have to show us how this is so given the background facts of Visas and Darth Nihilus.

 

---

 

Kreia looks to be the most atypical Star Wars character. (As far as I know. I'm not a big Star Wars expert so any correction is welcome.) Given Kreia was a Sith Lord and those have been all (?) male previously she's runs very much against the grain. She's strong willed and determined to get her vengeance no matter the cost to anyone. The fact she manipulative fits her character as a Fallen Jedi. She has no compunctions about using all the tools in her arsenal.

 

Darth Sion only beat her once, arguably. In the flashback it took Sion and Nihilus both to stop her. That's pretty powerful of Kreia if neither wanted to face her alone. Arguably, on the ship Sion beat her, though he had a light saber and she did not. Even then she still managed to escape after getting her hand cut off. That looks more a stalemate than a defeat to me.

 

You're also ignoring the fact she toasted three Jedi Masters at the *same time*. If that isn't raw power I don't know what is. Kreia simply wasn't a person to go in saber-swinging. She liked to wait and use her power to nudge things towards her ends. A Jedi/Sith way of apply just enough 'pressure' at the right time/place to achieve her ends.

[Shizuka2]

Not everyone hated Kreia (well, fine, all the NPCs thought she was rather disturbing if they managed to notice her existence) - I quite liked her. She made all the other characters look like crude puppets, and manipulated them as if they were. She was remarkably idealistic and devoted to the Exile, and an incredibly memorable character. I would not call her frigid, though she did care for her dignity, and even more for the Exile's respect. More, she was old - and felt it. TSL isn't Harold and Maude, and I for one am glad of it.

 

Manipulative old witch? Perhaps. But so much more besides...

 

Defeated in open combat - by Sion? No. Kreia hardly ever loses but to set up a later victory: her defeat by Nihilus and Sion together and her defeat at the hands of the Exile are the only two cases I can think of where it's even arguable that her apparent defeat was not a plan. Frankly, in the first of those, I rather suspect that she arranged the beating by Sion to forestall further action by Nihilus, whom she might not have been able to oppose directly. In the second, I think she intended her death at the Exile's hands to complete the Exile's training, since she valued the possibility of life outside the Force above all else.

 

Visas? I found no hint of her surrendering herself sexually. Looking at each other through the Force Sight is supposed to be very intimate, yes, but not sexual. I don't recall Force Sight acting like x-ray glasses, certainly. That sort of intimacy - that sort of trust - was all the more moving, coming as it did from one literally scarred all over from the abusive hungers of her ex-master.

 

The Handmaiden?

 

Well, both she and the Disciple seemed a bit bland to me - the cut endings would have helped, but some of that would seem to be inevitable when you split development time in half like that - though both Mira and Hanharr came out well. That should be the criticism of her; not this sexism mess.

[Creston]

While it is terribly offtopic, the whole "all women are treated badly, and men have everything so great, and this is true 100% of the time" scenario that's being brought forth here really makes my teeth itch.

 

Women who wear short skirts and low tops and are raped, and are then told they deserved to be raped, or were asking to be assaulted etc. How is this different from, for example, a black teenager / young adult walking around in a brightly coloured outfit, and automatically is assumed to be a gangbanger?

 

Or any man who wears a leather jacket is automatically assumed to be a Hell's Angel / rough guy, and you need to be careful with him, etc?

 

I'm not in any way implying that I condone rape, or that a woman EVER, under ANY circumstance, should EVER be implied that she was asking for it (because I think rape is the second worst crime that could ever be inflicted), but stereotyping and "discrimination" (and I use the term loosely) based on how someone looks is not limited to women alone.

 

As for other examples, tell me this. How many good looking women have gotten jobs over others, because they ARE good looking? Have gotten promotions because over others, because they ARE good looking? How many female waitresses get far higher tips than their male colleagues?

How many men are arrested and put in jail at the single word of a female claiming that she has been raped, and it's a false accusation?

How many men, here in the United States, will actually gain custody over their children after a divorce, even if the woman is a terrible mother, and the father would be a far better parent than she would (answer, very, very few).

 

Stereotyping and gender discrimination works both ways. Men get raped too, and if you think it's hard for a woman to come out and report it, imagine what goes through a man's mind at the thought of having to go to a police station and reporting that he was raped (because I can practically guarantee that the man WILL be snickered at).

In the same vein, there are quite a few men who are being physically abused by their wives, and who are terrified to report it, because it would make them appear to be a sissy and a wuss, etc.

 

I'm not condoning any kind of female inequality, but at the same time, please don't try to make it seem as if it's ONLY females who are suffering from inequality. And for every example where women are treated worse than men, I can probably point out examples where they are treated better.

 

 

Now, to get back on topic, I didn't really notice any "female gender discrimination" in the game. The Echani ritual was to fight without armor, but what the Handmaiden did was actually something that went beyond that. (You'll notice none of her five sisters would undress down to their skivvies to fight the Exile)

I took it more as a crude flirtation on her part rather than hormone overdriven developers sitting there going "Huh huh, boobies!"

As for Visas being the dependant, broken female, well, she was female, yes. I don't think she acted over the top the dependant female at any point. If you imagine that her entire world and her species were destroyed by Nihilus, and that he then enslaved her, and probably forced her to endure terrible torture at the hands of his power, I can see how she's a little mentally inbalanced.

What bugged me far more about her character was that five minutes after I put her into the Ebon Hawk's sickbay, she basically states that she is willing to die for me, for who I am, etc. Her entire dialogue was very poorly written, and made no sense whatsoever.

Kreia even told me that I should be careful about being her friend, and should at no point mate with her, and this was BEFORE I HAD EVER TALKED TO HER.

 

You could see that as "she's a desperate, stereotypical female", but I saw it more as just broken dialogue.

 

The dancing uniform was a bit over the top, but I kinda liked the nod towards Return of the Jedi. Actually, that whole part was a nice indication that Visas is NOT just your stereotypical "does as she is told" female. Have her in your party, and try to get her to wear the uniform and dance. Defense rests, your Honor.

 

Creston

[Objulen]

The depiction of women (particularly Handmaiden) was raised in the General Discussion forum.  I wanted to post this comment, but as it contains spoilers, I put it here instead.

 

The women of Kotor 2 are stereotyped.  It's not deeply offensive (to me), just a bit disappointing.

 

The handmaiden's naked fighting is silly.  Can you imagine a male character doing the same?  Like, say, in the Mandalorians' battle circle?  They weren't naked.  And don't say it's because in the Mandalorians' culture they wear armour.  It's the developers' decision to include clothed males and naked females that shows gender descrimination.

 

This one is quite correct. While it is not quite correct to say that it is gender descrimination, because male Echani would fight in skimpy outfits as well, it does say something about modern culture that there are only women who do so.

 

Visas was by far the more worrying case.  A character is shown as a broken wreck, without any will or sense of self, and of course she's female.  And utterly devoted to a male master (I assume Darth Nihilus is male, although correct me if I'm wrong).  And then willing to surrender herself sexually to the male Exile, perhaps the female Exile too.

 

I view your case here as being much weaker. Visas witnessed her entire race's annihilation, and then was essentially enslaved by the one who slew them and forced to serve him, not to mention the abuse she probably suffered. If that doesn't leave emotional scars, I don't know what would. As for sexually surrending, what are you refering to? No one even kisses in this game, and the male "macho, hide my feelings" stereotype is quite evident with Atton as well in his dialog with Disciple.

 

Darth Nihilus was male. He is now something more akin to an undead force of monstrous power. If you ever played Vampire: the Masquerade, it would be more akin to a Methusela or Antideluvian than a standard human being. Demi-god would also be an applicable term, and not in a Greek sense.

 

Kreia is a manipulative witch, lying and cheating from the shadows.  And twice we see her defeated by Darth Sion in open combat.  This suggests that males are dominant, women are subordinated, and can only exercise power through manipulation.  Again, a clear gender stereotype.  And frigid of course, as all powerful women are.  I do love the way the voice actress says 'indignities', though.

 

And yet Sion defers to her at the end and trys to win her approval. And this swings both ways. Sion is portrayed as a muscle-bound thug who can only inflict physical pain and suffering. If there is gender stereotyping here, then it applies to both male and female stereotypes.

 

This kind of thing is unavoidable when almost all game developers, and a clear majority of players, are male.  Obsidian aren't being nasty or deliberately discriminatory, just careless.  And the problem is very widespread (the Star Wars films are at least as bad, as is most of the output of Hollywood).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The best case I see for this is Handmadien. The rest of your arguments, are, IMO, weak, either being percieved in the worst possible light, or being equally balanced by standard male stereotyping. And while I don't agree with stereotyping, as it makes cookie cutter characters, I don't think that it is quite as great as you believe. It is also inevitable that cultural biases will worm their way into almost anything, and trying to filter them all out leaves a feeling that is just as contrived as trying to specifically include them.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Thanks to everyone for your comments and criticisms. You pointed out some important weaknesses in the case I was making, and it was great to get so many perspectives.

 

I continue to believe that there are problems in the way women are depicted in all media, computer games included. And that while many individual examples found in Kotor 2 can be explained, when you look at the game as a whole, it does tend to reinforce rather than challenge cultural stereotypes. I think good sci-fi/fantasy can do better than that.

 

And now I'm off to bed. 'night...

[draakh_kimera]

When it comes to the game, who honestly gives a flying **** ?!?!? It's a damn game, set in a different universe; go out, you'll find that very few women fall into the stereotypical stamps given within this thread....

 

As for equality, sure, genders aren't equal, but you know what? the supposed inequality (at least in sweden) is an extreme exaggeration.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Fionavar

[Rosbjerg]

^ Amen!

[Darth Drabek]

At least it isn't EverQuest, where the T&A is all over the game's box.

 

I don't think the Handmaiden's "unencumbered" duels are as sexist as some have thought. Remember what Canderous and the other mercenaries said about the Echanis: a bunch of fey dancers that only wear light armor because it doesn't slow them down when they're running away.

 

I believe it's supposed to be part of their stress on dexterity before strength and that armor is a hindrance, not something to be relied upon.

 

Nevertheless, she is enamored with the exile and might be trying to get him interested in her by stripping down past the robes that her sisters wear during sparring. You never know with women. They work in mysterious ways.

[stop_him]

The only thing that really bothered me was the fact that men got more "sexual" content than women... I am aware that there wasn't much of said content to speak of but male PC's still got: Underwear sparring, "Force sex" etc. Women got jack. Last time I checked, women liked sex too. If male PCs can have Force Sex why can't female PC's have something equal to that?

 

It's a shame that equal effort was not put forward to make this game a little more enjoyable for girls and their dirty minds (what am I saying all women have dirty minds! lol.).

 

Put "naked" menzis in the next game damnit!

 

I mean... male PCs, female PCs - I play both and enjoy the relationships and hinted sexual tensions of both.

 

Anyway, that's all I gotta say about that.

[Eji]

The only thing that really bothered me was the fact that men got more "sexual" content than women... I am aware that there wasn't much of said content to speak of but male PC's still got: Underwear sparring, "Force sex" etc. Women got jack. Last time I checked, women liked sex too. If male PCs can have Force Sex why can't female PC's have something equal to that?

 

It's a shame that equal effort was not put forward to make this game a little more enjoyable for girls and their dirty minds (what am I saying all women have dirty minds! lol.).

 

Put "naked" menzis in the next game damnit!

 

I mean... male PCs, female PCs - I play both and enjoy the relationships and hinted sexual tensions of both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LOL! I'm right there with ya. I felt a bit "neglected" at times and disequipped Carth and Atton's clothes just to see how the other half lives, lol.

 

Especially in terms of the relationships, women got ripped off big time... I remember in KOTOR1 Bastila kisses male Revan, and yet Carth is told by Mission to "get a room" when he tells me "I love you"!!!

I dunno, I guess the developers might be trying to hint that the women's relationships are deeper and go beyond physical contact, but dammit I want a makeout session too!

 

... or some Echani training with Atton.

[thepixiesrock]

It has recently been brought to my attention that there are some female gammers who are dissapionted in the fact that there is less sex in female game then in male. Well it is like that for one simple reason, there would be no sexual references at all if it were not for the fact that men think about sex all of the time. It is the main goal in the male life to have sex, all the time. Women have other things, like relationships and what not, men have sex. Men put up with relationships to have sex (And because prostitutes are still illegal in some parts of the world and they are all dirty and stuff.).

[Aegis]

What bugged me far more about her character was that five minutes after I put her into the Ebon Hawk's sickbay, she basically states that she is willing to die for me, for who I am, etc. Her entire dialogue was very poorly written, and made no sense whatsoever.

 

*** Mild spoiler warning ***

 

You know, I thought that first as well. But I've been analyzing the characters since then, for reason that's irrelevant here, and I've come to the conclusion that her dialogue isn't that bad if you look at it in a certain light. Well, apart from the fact that she share the problem of not having enough of it. It doesn't make sense at first, but after my second run and second time listening to the things she says towards the end in that presumably romantic scene (which I still find rather awkward, to be honest), it doesn't seem to strange anymore.

Basically, she's vulnerable because all her people died and she was more or less adopted by a sith lord who goes around killing planets in his spare time. No mystery there, right? The thing about her love for the exile is, that when her planet was destroyed, she was not left unaffected. But unlike everyone else, she was merely wounded, not killed (not a physical wound, of course). Like the exile (you'll realize eventually that what Nihilus can do is very much related to what happened to the exile). For all she knows, the exile is the only being in the entire universe that can truly understand her pain, because it goes beyond merely losing her family. He is a kindred spirit, and that's why she loves him. It might not even be a physical kind of love (which I guess would explain why female characters seem to have Visas as a romantic option, I haven't tried it myself), but more of a spiritual bond.

 

I'm not sure if I explained that very well, it's kinda hard, or if it makes any sense to you. But it does to me. Of course, it's just a theory, but given the game's lack of details in general, theories is all I have in most cases. I think it's kinda nice, I'm a sucker for tragedy, but to each his own I guess.

 

Oh, and that had nothing to do with the gender, I might add. I couldn't care less to be honest. But Carth was enough to fill my quote of repressed men, to be honest. To me, equality is about being able to accept people for who they are, not for what organs they have or don't have, and I don't think that there's anything wrong with stereotypes as long as they make sense in the situation.

[Strika]

Some of the comments here are incredibly sexist, not only to females but to males too. Maybe the devs should shut this post down because as i recall prejudice is not allowed here. Were in 2005 people, grow up. All this bull crap with men being stronger and more capabale than women is disgusting. Were not in the 1800's anymore. Yes it was stupid that Kreia (who is very powerful and people who played the game know why) had her hand chopped off so easily by Sion and yes its stupid that the handmaiden fought in her thong and bra but for the most part, the KOTOR series is very equal with men and women. Mira and the exile show the least stereotypical traits but when it comes down to it, but all 6 main women characters in KOTOR 2 are strong, independent women and completely equal to the male counterparts on their team. For example, when kreia gets her hand cut off in the beginning of the game, atton says if he was her, hed be screaming like a baby but kreia was too strong to show any pain in front of the exile. Kreia was not weak at all, considering her age and everything. Ye, her age may have made her a little physically weaker than some of the younger party members but her gender has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

Visas was not a dependant FEMALE, she was a dependant PERSON. Her planet was destroyed, she was the last survivor, she was tortured by a sith lord and beaten in combat by the exile- thats going to cause some major mental instability. Her sexual organs had nothing to do with why she was so dependant. And if anyone used her in combat, you'd see that she was one hell of a fighter. And besides, she did not just obey the male exile, but she did to the female one also.

 

If you play the female exile, the disciple and bao dur are VERY loyal to you and will follow her anywhere and agree with her on everything. They act as if she is their god or something..

 

Anwyays, i think its going a little too far in saying the devs for this game were sexist to the women because i think they did a damn good job with the equality between males and females (as it is now and as it always will be) so lay off them. And no not all the devs for this game were male, read the credits after you play the game. Dont be so quick to judge.

[stop_him]

It has recently been brought to my attention that there are some female gammers who are dissapionted in the fact that there is less sex in female game then in male.  Well it is like that for one simple reason, there would be no sexual references at all if it were not for the fact that men think about sex all of the time.  It is the main goal in the male life to have sex, all the time.  Women have other things, like relationships and what not, men have sex.  Men put up with relationships to have sex (And because prostitutes are still illegal in some parts of the world and they are all dirty and stuff.).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*snort* I certainly hope that is your attempt at a joke. Just because it is believed that women don't think about sex 24/7, doesn't mean that they don't "want any."

[Eji]

It has recently been brought to my attention that there are some female gammers who are dissapionted in the fact that there is less sex in female game then in male.  Well it is like that for one simple reason, there would be no sexual references at all if it were not for the fact that men think about sex all of the time.  It is the main goal in the male life to have sex, all the time.  Women have other things, like relationships and what not, men have sex.  Men put up with relationships to have sex (And because prostitutes are still illegal in some parts of the world and they are all dirty and stuff.).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*snort* I certainly hope that is your attempt at a joke. Just because it is believed that women don't think about sex 24/7, doesn't mean that they don't "want any."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have gained influence with Eji.

 

Hahaha! Methinks I have found a kindred spirit on these boards. (w00t)

 

Honestly, both KoTOR1 and 2 hooked me in with the semi-main male leads. If it wasn't for my interest in making a relationship with Carth and Atton, I'd have probably let these games drift by me before considering them.

So, in that respect, I kinda felt a bit cheated at the outcome, or lack thereof.

Don't get me wrong, I loved both their dialogues, but it was like some kinda cruel tease half the time, lol.

[Tanuvein]

Some of the comments here are incredibly sexist, not only to females but to males too. Maybe the devs should shut this post down because as i recall prejudice is not allowed here. Were in 2005 people, grow up. All this bull crap with men being stronger and more capabale than women is disgusting. Were not in the 1800's anymore. Yes it was stupid that Kreia (who is very powerful and people who played the game know why) had her hand chopped off so easily by Sion and yes its stupid that the handmaiden fought in her thong and bra but for the most part, the KOTOR series is very equal with men and women. Mira and the exile show the least stereotypical traits but when it comes down to it, but all 6 main women characters in KOTOR 2 are strong, independent women and completely equal to the male counterparts on their team. For example, when kreia gets her hand cut off in the beginning of the game, atton says if he was her, hed be screaming like a baby but kreia was too strong to show any pain in front of the exile. Kreia was not weak at all, considering her age and everything. Ye, her age may have made her a little physically weaker than some of the younger party members but her gender has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

Visas was not a dependant FEMALE, she was a dependant PERSON. Her planet was destroyed, she was the last survivor, she was tortured by a sith lord and beaten in combat by the exile- thats going to cause some major mental instability. Her sexual organs had nothing to do with why she was so dependant. And if anyone used her in combat, you'd see that she was one hell of a fighter. And besides, she did not just obey the male exile, but she did to the female one also.

 

If you play the female exile, the disciple and bao dur are VERY loyal to you and will follow her anywhere and agree with her on everything. They act as if she is their god or something..

 

Anwyays, i think its going a little too far in saying the devs for this game were sexist to the women because i think they did a damn good job with the equality between males and females (as it is now and as it always will be) so lay off them. And no not all the devs for this game were male, read the credits after you play the game. Dont be so quick to judge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Except Kreia didn't have her powers returned at that point. She had been cut off from the Force, and was slowly regaining her ability. And frankly, an old woman with little Force control is not likely to take out an immortal Sith Lord with a lightsaber anyway.

 

And I guess I'm the odd one out in the naked fighting thing: I didn't think it was odd at all. It didn't even really catch my attention til I noticed I could say 'Put clothes on! OMG JEDI ROBES YAY!"

[stop_him]

It has recently been brought to my attention that there are some female gammers who are dissapionted in the fact that there is less sex in female game then in male.  Well it is like that for one simple reason, there would be no sexual references at all if it were not for the fact that men think about sex all of the time.  It is the main goal in the male life to have sex, all the time.  Women have other things, like relationships and what not, men have sex.  Men put up with relationships to have sex (And because prostitutes are still illegal in some parts of the world and they are all dirty and stuff.).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*snort* I certainly hope that is your attempt at a joke. Just because it is believed that women don't think about sex 24/7, doesn't mean that they don't "want any."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have gained influence with Eji.

 

Hahaha! Methinks I have found a kindred spirit on these boards. (w00t)

 

Honestly, both KoTOR1 and 2 hooked me in with the semi-main male leads. If it wasn't for my interest in making a relationship with Carth and Atton, I'd have probably let these games drift by me before considering them.

So, in that respect, I kinda felt a bit cheated at the outcome, or lack thereof.

Don't get me wrong, I loved both their dialogues, but it was like some kinda cruel tease half the time, lol.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

lol.

 

Well, you gained max influence with me when you made those cut scene files available for download. Come to think of it, I do believe that I also confessed my love for you because of said favour.

 

But yeah, give women more sex! So say two like-(sex)-minded individuals!