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Hannigaholic

Lay off Obsidian, already!

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I've seen a post on here from one of the OE staff members saying that those on this board are a minority in not enjoying the game, which isn't true at all because I have friends I've let borrow the game who all came back with negative reviews of it. It just so happens that the majority are telling people off-line not to bother, not posting on this board.

 

I resent that. I'm not usually the complaining type - I love Star Wars and Star Wars games in particular. When Jedi Knight - Jedi Academy was released, everyone was slagging it off - not me. I played it through twice - once as LS, once as DS, and loved it. So if I feel disappointed in the ending of KOTOR2, I am pretty sure a lot of other people will join me. And its not just me that feels this way - the experts do too. Review magazines and websites also feel the ending wasn't up to scratch.

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It is both companies fault, and there is no point in blaming either, nor defending either...


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One billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there.

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What the exact reason is I can only suppose, but I think that there must be another reason for the cut ending than a lack of time, money or the like.

The plot was written, the voice acting was there (even in the international versions!).

 

Yes, but even if they write the dialog and record it, they may not have had time to get the game logic (quest and dialog) to work correctly. They may not have had time to script in game cutscenes and such as well. If this is the case, it would have been easier for them to forego those intereactions and cutscenes altogether and release the game, even f the dialog had already been written and the voice overs already made.

 

The dialog and recording is just one part of the picture, especially in a game with such a condensed time schedule. It points VERY strongly to me to they had things planned and intended fully to have them in, but in the last period just didn't have time to implement it all.

 

I tend to agree that both Obsidian and Lucas Arts went into this knowing that this was a shortened schedule and what it would mean to the story in the end.

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What the exact reason is I can only suppose, but I think that there must be another reason for the cut ending than a lack of time, money or the like.

The plot was written, the voice acting was there (even in the international versions!).

 

Yes, but even if they write the dialog and record it, they may not have had time to get the game logic (quest and dialog) to work correctly. They may not have had time to script in game cutscenes and such as well. If this is the case, it would have been easier for them to forego those intereactions and cutscenes altogether and release the game, even f the dialog had already been written and the voice overs already made.

 

The dialog and recording is just one part of the picture, especially in a game with such a condensed time schedule. It points VERY strongly to me to they had things planned and intended fully to have them in, but in the last period just didn't have time to implement it all.

 

I tend to agree that both Obsidian and Lucas Arts went into this knowing that this was a shortened schedule and what it would mean to the story in the end.

 

IIRC they have always said that they were well on schedule during the development time.


"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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The game logic and dialogue really ought to be finalised at a very early stage in the development process, if you want a really good product, but I don't think this happens very often. In most games I play, I often hear some dialogue and think that it doesn't quite fit what was said just before, either logically or gramatically. I'm sure they write (and even record) more than they ever plan to use, so that they can make cuts later. As others have said on this forum, it's quite normal that you would look through the game files and find lots of stuff that didn't make it into the finished game. The cut ending for Kotor 2 seems to be different, though - a more extreme mangling of the story, for whatever reason.


"An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)

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It's prolly a little bit of both. [re: lucasarts/obsidians fault]

 

Obsidian prolly made the game, with a HUGE story arc in mind, when it came to fitting the whole shibang on the Xbox disk and the ever encroaching release date, it was too big. So they had to cut things from the game due to pressure of disk size, Xbox capabilities and the release date they had to meet.

 

I'm guessing thats where the HK Factory stuff, and the other stuff went.

 

The stuff that WAS cut, is prolly (in retrospect) some of the most important stuff - but in the overall sense of meeting the release date and contract agreements with LucasArts, the endgame stuff would've been the EASIEST to cut, being that it was prolly the most complicated in terms of all the storyarcs meeting at the end (at Malachor)

 

What would've been BETTER (had they not been rushed to meet the deadline from L.A) would've been to dispose of some of the meaningless sidequests, which although...adding to a fun story in the interium - didn't count for much at the end.

 

So instead of having the time to go through the game, and get rid of the stuff they could without hurting the overall story...they "botched" the game, by meeting the release date...but slicing the end-game to pieces.

 

Which is a bitch.

 

The frigging ANNOYING thing is - you KNOW somewhere in the Obsidian vaults, is a FULL un-edited-for-release copy of SW: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords with a FULL storyline as it was intended, including the HK-Factory stuff AND a full movie-ending featuring the deaths of certain characters etc etc.

 

I'm guessing the "lightside" ending, was you re-forming the Jedi Council, with Atton and the rest of your "surviving" party members as they all are the "lost" Jedi, with you as their leader - travelling into the "outer rim" to find Revan, and help him. The Darkside ending, would've been you and the "surviving" party members forming some kind of "sith" council, and travelling into the "unknown" after the sith lord Revan etc...

 

All this stuff was recorded people, it was MADE and it'll exist in some medium at Obsidian. And we're never going to see it, unless they do the "respect the fans" thing - and re-release the game with a "directors cut"

 

Thats where it's at. Thats the truth.

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Everything, except maybe the writing (what characters say, not how they interact with protagonist or each other), feels rushed in KotOR 2. That can only mean very thing schedule from Lucas Arts side. If Obsidian only used 12 months to create this... damn, you just can't make solid game in 12 months anymore. I'd say 20 months is minimum and even then you'd need huge development team (including talented QA team).

 

Nearly all party members were interesting, but very underdeveloped. Same with Sith Lords, except Kreia (who I didn't like that much because it was BG2:ToB Melissan all over again).

 

Bugs, oh damn the bugs... I haven't seen this many different kinds of bugs since the Anarchy Online launch date. Of course if there's technical bugs, there must be storyline and balance issues as well. I don't know what QA people did, but I've seen alpha versions in better shape then this game.

 

70% blame goes to LA, 30% to OB.


Let's play Alpha Protocol

My misadventures on youtube.

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I blame LA for pushing a Christmas release when it was not the planned release date. If given two month, do you think the ending can be implemented? I certainly do.

 

But, I also blame OE for poor planning and the bugs. As well as the fact that the PC version had nothing new added. I just hope OE doesn

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"The game was no easier or harder than the first, though I only played both on medium."

 

No. The game was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy easierrrrrrrrrr than the first. the scary thing is that the first game was easy.

 

 

"As for the NPC dying, what hte hell are you talking about?"

 

Atton dies. Game over. Mira dies. Game over. Tin Can dies. Game over.

 

 

*Yawn*

 

If the game is so easy, why complain about that?

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"The game was no easier or harder than the first, though I only played both on medium."

 

No. The game was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy easierrrrrrrrrr than the first. the scary thing is that the first game was easy.

 

 

"As for the NPC dying, what hte hell are you talking about?"

 

Atton dies. Game over. Mira dies. Game over. Tin Can dies. Game over.

 

 

*Yawn*

 

If the game is so easy, why complain about that?

 

<Chuckle>


I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

478327[/snapback]

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I'm trying to see where some fault lays on Obsidian, and the only thing I see is that they added nothing to the PC version. They had the time to, especially since they weren't doing QA. LA handled that (therefore, the bugs are LAs fault, as well, since OE can't fix what they don't know is broken, and they weren't supposed to look for broken things themselves). LA moved up the release date, strong armed OE into releasing it then, thus suddenly cutting their time to finish things up to nil.

 

Still, I'm surprised at least a small amount of this was not readded to the PC version, though I think I read somewhere they had trouble getting hte PC version ready?

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Still, I'm surprised at least a small amount of this was not readded to the PC version, though I think I read somewhere they had trouble getting hte PC version ready?

 

They had a problem with the localised Xbox versions which took a lot of time to sort through as I understand it.

 

Dont know if you know this (you probably do) but the Xbox overseas and the PC versions came out at the same time. Only the US was an Xmas release.


I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

478327[/snapback]

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Does a Christmas release really increase sales so much over the long term?

 

According to the BBC, Kotor 2 is selling amazingly anyway (in the UK at least), with a February release on both X-Box and pC.


"An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)

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Does a Christmas release really increase sales so much over the long term?

 

According to the BBC, Kotor 2 is selling amazingly anyway (in the UK at least), with a February release on both X-Box and pC.

 

Hard to say really. What usually happens is post holiday there is a big period of no games. And since everyone rushes out for the holidays only the big titles get noticed (obviously KOTOR II is a big title).

 

Market research does show that people spend far more on games over the holiday period than at any other time of year. Especially games for "children" which is why I'm quite confident in my theory that the cuts had more to do with content than time.

 

As you said it's doing amazingly well over here even though it missed the rush. But there wasnt a lot in the way of real competition either it was all PS2 , or ironically came out the week after KOTOR II.

 

It's also had very good reviews so the weak ending dosnt seem to have attracted the same sorts of attention among reviewers as it does here.


I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

478327[/snapback]

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I've seen a post on here from one fo the OE staff members sayign that those on this board are a minority in not enjoying the game...

 

FYI, that post can easily be interpreted as the exact opposite. People see what they want to see, I guess...

 

From everything I've seen thus far that's actually true. The big criers and gripers seem to be the longtime Obsidian/Black Isle followers who suggested and suggested other items that led Interplay to ruin!

 

If I might be so bold as to state that. They complained even then...about Icewind Dale, about Icewind Dale 2, and oh yeah, they even complained about BG2, that it was too buggy, and the ending stunk because it left more questions...

 

I have to admit though, I am amongst those who have been around long, though after their move to being obsidian, I haven't posted much, and in fact been elsewhere until the news of a general riot amongst Obsidian's boards as opposed to what others were telling me...was heard.

 

What do you know, maybe you can run OE out of business too eh?

 

personally I hope you don't.

 

Everyone I talked to stated the game was great...overall, and though they had complaints, it wasn't really about the ending at all. It's only on the internet really that I've heard this big push for these ending items.

 

The REAL concerns that most have had don't deal with the ending...but with gameplay and design. However, for those here they'd rather have an ending however they deem as they would want.

 

In my opinion, with the time table they had, Obsidian did an outstanding job, and as I've said it before here, I'll say it again, KotoR 2 is the best RPG to come out in months.

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Does a Christmas release really increase sales so much over the long term?

 

According to the BBC, Kotor 2 is selling amazingly anyway (in the UK at least), with a February release on both X-Box and pC.

 

Hard to say really. What usually happens is post holiday there is a big period of no games. And since everyone rushes out for the holidays only the big titles get noticed (obviously KOTOR II is a big title).

 

Market research does show that people spend far more on games over the holiday period than at any other time of year. Especially games for "children" which is why I'm quite confident in my theory that the cuts had more to do with content than time.

 

As you said it's doing amazingly well over here even though it missed the rush. But there wasnt a lot in the way of real competition either it was all PS2 , or ironically came out the week after KOTOR II.

 

It's also had very good reviews so the weak ending dosnt seem to have attracted the same sorts of attention among reviewers as it does here.

 

Actually, from what I understand, releasing just before Christmas is not a good idea as publishers think. Only the big names, like GTAs and that, get noticed. While all the other sixty that got rushed sell horribly, because no one has the money after buying everyone gifts and only recieving big name games.

 

I know I end up missing out on many games because they come out on Christmas, as opposed to when I can afford and play them. Apparently, this happens for a lot of people.

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Everyone I talked to stated the game was great...overall, and though they had complaints, it wasn't really about the ending at all.  It's only on the internet really that I've heard this big push for these ending items.

 

The REAL concerns that most have had don't deal with the ending...

 

Man, simply because they don't know about the "director's cut ending". What you don't know won't hurt you, or am I wrong with this?


"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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The complaints about the ending are in these forums because the information about the cut ending is in these forums. Most players (like me) don't have the skills needed to root around in files and uncover these things. I only arrived at this forum after completing the game, and I wanted to know if others had found the end as odd as I had. Not everyone who plays these games cares too much about the story. But some of us do, very strongly.

 

I don't even know what black isle is, but I doubt that criticisms on this board are going to drive the company that's making NWN2 into bankruptcy.


"An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)

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The complaints about the ending are in these forums because the information about the cut ending is in these forums.  Most players (like me) don't have the skills needed to root around in files and uncover these things.  I only arrived at this forum after completing the game, and I wanted to know if others had found the end as odd as I had.  Not everyone who plays these games cares too much about the story.  But some of us do, very strongly.

 

I don't even know what black isle is, but I doubt that criticisms on this board are going to drive the company that's making NWN2 into bankruptcy.

 

sarcasm on

 

I doubt that criticisms about BG2, IWD, and IWD 2 would drive Black Isle into the ground...

 

sarcasm off

 

I know about the endings...and I had my response...but you know, I've had a lot of games with worse endings...at least you got a good fight...even if there was no long extended cut scene it seems some people wanted.

 

They are exaggerating about the end and grossly so...I mean, in essence, BG2 had just as bad an ending except that it had a movie at the end...you beat the bad guy, but your romance...goes nowhere...your companions...so they stick with you...and what happens afterwards...who knows...you simply fight Irenicus and that's it...take out the movie and your about at the same spot as KotoR 2.

 

In fact, BG1 had a pretty terrible ending as well...so you chase Sarevok into where...where in the heck did this area come up, why is he down there? You fight him, and that's it! It's not until BG2 that you get more resolution to the end.

 

In fact, PST is the only one I can really think of that actually had what I'd consider a "good" ending that was better than KotoR 2, and though it was accoladed by many, it sold terribly.

 

There are MANY other items that I'd rather have fixed up in the game itself...though don't get me wrong, I like the game immensely. Some of those items probably would make the end game flow smoother...and a few more lines could resolve a lot...however...people griping about something like that to the extent above...would make one think a PoR:RoMD episode was breaking out here...which it isn't.

 

You know what bothered me FAR more than the ending...that the game only seemed to run on my Nvidia machines. My Ati machines had massive problems with the game. I pity those with Ati machines as they probably either have to update drivers to current drivers...or if they have older Ati Cards are waaay out of luck and can't even play. Even those that do get it to play will have some massive bugs in the game as they play. That's a far worse item than these idiots crying foul and bloody murder over the ending.

 

However, being a gamer myself, I'm not that bothered with it...though of all the things with the game, THAT is the item that actually would bother me the most.

 

I like the game, and I enjoyed it immensely. IF they make a KotoR 3 I believe most of the questions about characters could also be answered there, as a resolution, and a much more fullfilling one probably. On the plus side, they can change the resolutions to fit the story better for KotoR 3 as well.

 

It's not that we (the general public) "don't know" about your rants (if you had seen me at the end of the game perhaps you'd realize that we know a lot that you know, and ascribing that those not here don't have the technological know how is about as arrogant as all git), but simply that we find most of the people here acting ridiculously about them whilst thinking arrogantly that they are addressing the most important issue about the game...when point blank...they are not.

 

The patch I hope will be for the General public, and not the elites of this forum when it comes out...lest you all get your little endings that you are all complaining about, and the Ati users still have a buggy game to deal with.

 

I'm glad a patch is coming out...I enjoyed the game, and as long as the patch is made for the majority of people playing the game instead of the whiners here, I expect that it will patch a great deal of the majority of the bugs making a great game even better.

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sarcasm on

 

I doubt that criticisms about BG2, IWD, and IWD 2 would drive Black Isle into the ground...

 

sarcasm off

 

Black Isle didn't make BG2, Bioware did.

 

IWD and IWD II had good enough endings, I never heard anyone complain about them. Plus, they weren't story heavy games. They were all about hte combat.

 

Black Isle closed down because Interplay owned them, and Interplay lost money over all. Black Isle kept them afloat for quite a while.

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They are exaggerating about the end and grossly so...I mean, in essence, BG2 had just as bad an ending except that it had a movie at the end...you beat the bad guy, but your romance...goes nowhere...your companions...so they stick with you...and what happens afterwards...who knows...you simply fight Irenicus and that's it...take out the movie and your about at the same spot as KotoR 2.

 

So, your argument is: a game that BioWare made a good decade ago had an ending as unfulfilling as KOTOR2. Well, do we want these kind of mistakes to continue to be made? I thought not.

 

This isn't counting the fact that the end plot of BG2 actually comes to a complete, proper end in BG2. The saga of Irenicus comes to a close with the end of BG2, explained, done and dusted. If you ask me, the end of BG2 reminds me more of the LightSide end of KOTOR1 - it's a story arc coming to a close. The romances come to a close as well, or at least reach a point where they can be considered to be 'in abeyance' until the next part in the story.

 

And you know what? There's a huge modding scene out there for BG1 and 2, filling the gaps, restoring the missing bits, the cut quests, fixing the bugs unofficially, bringing closure. That's not even counting the official expansion pack - yes, an expansion pack. BG2: Throne of Bhaal is not a sequel, but an expansion pack.

 

That can't happen here. No-one has the tools needed to mod KOTOR2. So, the only thing anyone can do is go straight to the developers. Ok, we'd like them to do this themselves, but if they simply don't have the time I'm sure lots of folks would settle for some modding pointers. That's probably against contract, but quite frankly so is restoring the cut stuff. So it's all a case of '300 Spartans' - but that doesn't stop us asking, does it?

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Now, after having finished the game, I actually would most like to see the ending put back. You know why? Because I loved the game. We all did, at least all who want the ending back. Those people that really didn't care about the ending didn't love it in the same way that we did.

 

As most of the people do here, I give most of the blame to LA, especially for cutting down the time with two months pretty near completion.

 

Yeah, as a sidenote, I played with a Radeon 9800 Pro, and had only very minor problems regarding crashes and slow-downs.

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Well *maybe* Obsidian should have stood up and not let Lucas bully them around? That's my main problem with them. How the hell are you going to get anywhere if you can't stand up for yourself?

 

 

Don't be so stupid. "Stand up for yourself." LucasArts and Obsidian are businesses, not two kids in the playground, boy. It doesn't work that way. They have to obey LucasArts, otherwise they c=ould quite easily be sued for breaching of contract. And You don't mess with Businesses that are hundreds times larger than you.

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