Theories about end of KOTOR2/start of KOTOR3

[Matt7895]

Yes I know there are lots of other topics asking questions like this, I've read through them, so I'll try to make my points as original as possible.

 

I agree with all of the opinions made about Obsidian not giving the game a proper ending. I would have liked to have seen what happened to Mira, and Hanharr (as I chose not to kill him). I didn't care much for G0-T0, because there wasn't much point in his character. I would have liked to have had Visas and the Handmaiden accompany me into Trayus Academy, or at the very least two of the other party members.

 

They didn't properly explain why Hanharr detests Mira so much. So what, she saved his life? The wookiees would have seen that as HONORABLE, they would have seen it as a privilege to have a life debt to such a kind, moral person. So what makes Hanharr different? Is he mentally inept or something?

 

The main thing that angered me was not being able to talk with Canderous, HK-47 or T3 about Revan. Apparently with HK-47 to do that you need to have influence with him. Well, sorry, but since he is such a weak character I never had him in my party anyway - I stuck to strong melee types like the Handmaiden. And I couldn't get any influence with him because he was an evil assassin, whereas my character was light side.

 

The only conversation choices I had with Canderous was about the Republic and stimulants. Yawn. Boring. Much the same with T3.

 

What was the point of bringing HK-47 back if you can't even speak to him about Revan?

 

I finished the game at level 27, and this was after completing virtually every sidequest that wasn't bugged and killing every enemy I could see. Was there any way at all to get to level 30?

 

Also, what exactly was Kreia blathering about when she told you about the 'old Sith Empire' at the end? Carth hinted about this when you meet him on Telos. I felt more explanation was needed.

 

The cutscenes were very disappointing. What exactly is that nebula? Is that where Revan went?

 

Seriously, Obsidian, I loved most of the game except for its ending, which was mediocre at best. Very confusing, very frustrating! I hope there is a KOTOR3 simply because I need to know how this story plays out.

[Hundred Companions]

A lot of what you posted could easily be answered if you carefully read all the dialogue options in the game.

 

As for others, if you are an avid fan of SW, then all the material from the comics, and novels should easily answer them. Note that in the developer diaries and interviews, they admitted to fully reading every material available on SW before they made the game. Such was so that K2 would more fully represent the SW universe.

 

As for the nebula, I'll say that's just it - a nebula like any other - probably not far from where they escaped from Malachor V. Nothing special to be deducted from.

 

HC

[Avatar Lightbringer]

Couldn't agree more. Even about the HK-47 part. Back in K1, HK-47 made interesting comments, I liked his sense of humor and looked forward to that in K2, only to find that my lightside character couldn't get along with him cause they turned him into a GOTO like idiot... I enjoyed repairing T3 on the Ebon hawk. GOTO sucked. If I was the exile, I'd be willing to get some dark points (if the game would consider it bad) to arrange for a GOTO accident so that he won't bother me again. I won't be repairing HK-47 if I play the game again. The Handmaiden and Visas were nice, Mira was nice although by the time I got her, I was already invovled with the Handmaiden's romance, so I didn't get to know her much. I hated Kreia. In the whole game I wanted to just slash her open, and when I finally killed her in the end, I didn't even enjoy it! Even with all the holes, I was anxious to see the end and solve all those stuff. And I was disappointed. I don't know what they're going to do with K3, but they better do it right this time, or I'm not buying any LA games ever again. And I don't think the dialogues were enough for me. I still think the ending sucked and the game could've been very well made. And Kreia destroyed the illusion and delivered the truth to us, too. Nothing is there to fill the gaps, despite what we hoped for. Yeah well, Kreia, b***h till the bitter end...

[Trom]

Very good points Matt! I agree with you 100% I've done a lot of research on this and it is clear to me that Obsidian had another endgame but for compelling reasons I've detailed elsewhere on this board, chose to truncate the endgame in favor of Kreia's exposition. When they truncated the endgame, they didn't have time to go back and make the rest of the plot consistent therefore left in all the foreshadowing that came to nought.

 

Sorry, Hundred Companions, I can't follow your logic. First of all, the dialogue contains many contradictions. Secondly, I think you might have hit on one of the problems. They did read all that stuff. I haven't and I'd guess the vast majority of players haven't either. If they developed the game dependent on that, then it was a mistake and should have incorporated that prerequisite by transparently integrating it into the plot. Otherwise, it would be like Tolkien requiring you to read Beowulf as a condition to understanding LOTR.

 

One of the reaons I feel so strongly about this game is that it allows me to fullfill a fantasy of being a member of the SW universe. K1, despite its flaws, did just that. K2 did that also for about the first 80% of the game. At this point I'm criticizing the game on the forums for the sole purpose of alerting the K3 team about the big mistake that was made on this game.

 

If you read all the interviews and announcements about the game in GameSpy, you can see that LA wanted the XBox version out by Christmas and Obsidian promised to do that. However, they ran into a technical problem with the XBox build just before shipping and that's when they must have been confronted with either truncating the endgame or shipping on time. LA must have chosen the latter.

[Matt7895]

A lot of what you posted could easily be answered if you carefully read all the dialogue options in the game.

 

As for others, if you are an avid fan of SW, then all the material from the comics, and novels should easily answer them. Note that in the developer diaries and interviews, they admitted to fully reading every material available on SW before they made the game. Such was so that K2 would more fully represent the SW universe.

 

HC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am a big SW fan, and EU reader/player (as now all of the SW games have been made canon, apart from the blatantly apocrypha ones such as Rebel Assault, etc) but sadly not that in touch with the pre-ANH stuff, which I will have to catch up on. But I can't see how stuff from the 'Tales of the Jedi' comics and the rest can help me with storyline faults in KOTOR2.

[Hundred Companions]

Sorry, Hundred Companions, I can't follow your logic. First of all, the dialogue contains many contradictions. Secondly, I think you might have hit on one of the problems. They did read all that stuff. I haven't and I'd guess the vast majority of players haven't either. If they developed the game dependent on that, then it was a mistake and should have incorporated that prerequisite by transparently integrating it into the plot. Otherwise, it would be like Tolkien requiring you to read Beowulf as a condition to understanding LOTR.

 

Few people do, and I don't blame you. Those who do, unfortunately, either do not post on forums (where the majority is complaining as greywolf so conveniently puts it), or choose to keep quiet. I am just one of a few who can't keep their hands still. Majority of players would hardly be the case. A lot of people out there are SW fans, and bought the series because of such. All the more so, it is SW fans and developers who are SW fans who wished that the game would appeal more to the SW universe. After LA IS Star Wars. The integration just meant that all those extra tidbits would produce 'oooohs and ahhhhs' by the fans - though I'm afraid non-fans would've been totally confused. A mistake? Maybe to one group, but not to the other.

 

But I can't see how stuff from the 'Tales of the Jedi' comics and the rest can help me with storyline faults in KOTOR2.

 

If I heard correctly, recent TOTJ have began to elaborate on Darth Nihilus' character, and much of the story and characters was developed from TOTJ's 'Knights of the Old Republic', 'Golden Age of the Sith', 'Fall of the Sith Empire', 'Freedon Nadd Uprising', 'Dark Lords of the Sith', 'The Sith War' and 'Redemption' etc.

 

As for Hanharr, is it so difficult to conceive a psychotic Wookie? Zaalbar's brother certainly had no honour, and Hanharr brought that to an extreme. His hatred and anger was brought to the limits during his captivity and he merely snapped. After all, all those great and noble Jedi did turn to the DS, whether or not they became Sith. Are they mentally deranged then? Come to think, some of them are.

 

At this point, of course, I need to say that I do agree with some of your points like what happened to Mira after Hanharr and the absolutely zero use of GO-TO. That's just to prevent some from breathing down my back later.

 

My conversation with Canderous went beyond Republic and stimulants, and I got him to the LS a bit. However, it still wasn't completed at the end since he did say he had more to tell me later about Revan.

 

I'll understand why I couldn't speak much with HK - this is where the purpose of the influence system comes into play. I certainly wouldn't expect a DS extreme Sith Lord who wants to gut me to tell me everything if I was a LS Jedi. Put simply, polar extremes dont talk much to each other. But then again, I agree that HK was bordering on useless. The only point in him was appearing as a character from K1, and gaining XP from fixing him. Frankly speaking, I'd prefer knowing where in the galaxy is Zaalbar and M Vao, Juhani and Jolee that old fart.

 

HC

[Sirus]

Also, what exactly was Kreia blathering about when she told you about the 'old Sith Empire' at the end? Carth hinted about this when you meet him on Telos. I felt more explanation was needed.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I could be wrong, but think the Sith of KOTOR are not the true Sith. The real Sith are actually a race, which apparently are still alive in KOTOR's time. I think this is the Sith empire Kreia talked about. Later on in the timeline they are all dead, so maybe Revan and the Exile kill them all off.

[jedipodo]

Also, what exactly was Kreia blathering about when she told you about the 'old Sith Empire' at the end? Carth hinted about this when you meet him on Telos. I felt more explanation was needed.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I could be wrong, but think the Sith of KOTOR are not the true Sith. The real Sith are actually a race, which apparently are still alive in KOTOR's time. I think this is the Sith empire Kreia talked about. Later on in the timeline they are all dead, so maybe Revan and the Exile kill them all off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why do they all fear the "original Sith" so much? In TOTJ they are very primitive people.

 

I really hope that Revan and the Exile won't commit a massacre on this dumb natives just because Kreia told them to do so.

[Mellypie]

The Sith as a species are gone. However, the "true sith" that everyone is speaking of in-game are the original Sith Empire. Revan's Sith were not the actual Sith but merely an upstart group that followed the teachings of the Sith.

 

As to Hanharr he holds a life debt to Mira that he sees as simply another form of slavery with invisible chains. He owe his life to her therefor he is essentially her slave. Also I think he depises the weakness she showed when she saved his life.

[Hundred Companions]

Yeah, post Naga Sadow, the Sith Empire pretty much disappeared from Republic history. After that it's all fledging Lords like Exar Kun etc. But even so, even Exar the self styled 'greatest Dark Lord of the Sith' never actually visited the ancient systems of the Sith Empire. I'm thinking that perhaps even after the Hyperspace War, some Sith Lord still remained in that remote part of the galaxy, and maybe in K3 one manages to be strong enough to retake the official title of Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

Yeah, btw I managed to get a high enough influence with Hk to ask him about his former master. From that (since I was playing DS female) I got to hear about HK's opinion about Revan and his memory problems, a voice cast of Carth whinging and whining about not 'trusting anyone anymore' (since Revan went DS) and of course also of Bastila loving Revan and offering to kiss him in all the smootchy language (also DS style). And when I say voice cast, I mean real voice enactments of them (as like the Hk-50's voice cast of the Peragus maintenance officer).

 

However, my influence still isn't high enough to ask about why Revan did not regard the Republic as a threat.

 

HC

[Azr1el]

I love the game and I think the overall storyline is compelling and quite interesting - though a bit rushed near the end.

 

Personally, I was a bit disappointed by the lack of interaction and dialogue lines with the other characters in the game.

 

It's great to be able to influence the other characters, but past the moment you turn them into Jedis, they've nothing left to say. For example, all you get to say to Bao-Dur once he's a Jedi, is "never mind". Take Atton, he seems to have his big moment and then it's back to Pazaak (again). And with the other characters, you aren't learning anything new. Same with the droids... The dialogues are a bit repetitive too.

 

In KoTOR1 you got a sense of progression, although you also ended up with nothing left to say and were begging for more. I was hoping KoTOR2 would improve that.

 

Wishful thinking maybe, but I would have loved new dialogues with the other characters until the very end of the game - The interaction felt a bit like an add-on in KoTOR2.

 

Just my thoughts anyway.

[Thummin]

Yeah, the Hanhaar thing is simply based on Hanhaar's experiences and the choices he made in reaction to them throughout his life.

 

If an enemy spares your your life repeatedly, you have a few choices:

 

1. You let go of your hate and realize that the other person does in fact respect you and wants to be in relationship with you, rather than an enemy. This, however, means you are not as strong as that person (as they beat you AGAIN), you are not as noble/good as that person (they spared you, you wouldn't have spared them), and you are not worthy of the kind act they are offering. In other words, it takes a LOT of humility... especially when one has chosen to hate many times in the past.

 

2. You hate them even more you refuse to accept that the other person is stronger and more noble/kind than you. In fact, the kindness is actually "mocking" you in your weakness, because you must now live with your wounded pride, feeling shame and embarrassment. By choosing to hate, your pride (and thus your perceived inherent value) does not take a hit.

 

This scenario is played out in many lives on a daily basis, usually on much smaller levels, but it's the same thing.

 

And, yeah, the wookie "code of honor / life debt" concept plays into it as well -- it's twisted out of shape by Hanhaar's choice to hate instead of letting go of his pride.

[Unabomber]

I didn't care much for G0-T0, because there wasn't much point in his character.

 

Actually, there is an interesting story, if you manage to get enough influence. I've unlocked it once.

 

 

 

As it turns out, G0-T0 = Goto, and vice versa. The humanoid hologram you see is nothing more than a projection by G0-T0, since the droid itself is the "real" entity.

 

Getting to hear G0-T0's story about how it came into being (almost eerily similar to Star Trek's V-GER) was rather interesting, especially since you managed to shut him up for a few seconds.

 

 

 

I would have liked to have had Visas and the Handmaiden accompany me into Trayus Academy, or at the very least two of the other party members.

 

Same here.

 

They didn't properly explain why Hanharr detests Mira so much. So what, she saved his life? The wookiees would have seen that as HONORABLE, they would have seen it as a privilege to have a life debt to such a kind, moral person. So what makes Hanharr different? Is he mentally inept or something?

 

Hanharr isn't quite the typical Wookie, and assuming you unlock the conversation tree with him, your theory of his being mentally inept holds a good deal of water.

 

What was the point of bringing HK-47 back if you can't even speak to him about Revan?

 

He's still a good combatant, especially with a fully upgraded, high quality rifle. Also, being able to torch enemies with the droid molten projector was nice.

 

I finished the game at level 27, and this was after completing virtually every sidequest that wasn't bugged and killing every enemy I could see. Was there any way at all to get to level 30?

 

If you have Kreia in your party, you get 5% more experience points, I believe. This could get you a level or two more.

 

Also, if you unlock more of the conversations with your party members, that's worth a good bit of XP as well, perhaps enough to get you another level.

[Drakron]

The Sith empire was destroyed during the great Hyperspace war, there was not much left out of it.

 

Reason of why Korriban is somewhat intact is because it was just a tomb world at that time and the Republic Fleet ignored it because of it, the rest was utterly destroyed by the Republic Fleet.

 

As for potencial survivers ...

 

Problem is that the Sith had a very clear chain of command and had to follow the current Dark Lord of the Sith, before the Republic started to destroy then there was already two Sith Lords fighting for the title of Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

So chances of anyone survive their civil war and the Republic counter attack is very small.

 

I remenber that Canderous said they were contacted by the Sith to attack the Republic (leading to the Mandalorians Wars) that is true except he got the wrong war, Exar Kun used the Mandalorians in his war with the Republic so it makes little sense that Canderous would not mention that as well.

[Matt7895]

Thanks for all your comments, I have read through them all and found them very interesting and informative. And Drakon, I noticed the little Obsidian comment in your sig - well, if only they were...then we could have had a complete game

[Trom]

I would have liked to have had Visas and the Handmaiden accompany me into Trayus Academy, or at the very least two of the other party members.

 

I think they originally intended this. While at Trayus a few times I saw a HotDot for a Meditation Chamber I couldn't get to.

 

They didn't properly explain why Hanharr detests Mira so much. So what, she saved his life? The wookiees would have seen that as HONORABLE, they would have seen it as a privilege to have a life debt to such a kind, moral person. So what makes Hanharr different? Is he mentally inept or something?

 

You might find it interesting, but in reading through the code, apparently at one time Hanharr was actually a member of the team.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Hanhar is twisted. As a former slave he sees the lifedebt as another form of slavery which will only end when he kills who he is indebted to.

 

When you first see them he's held in check by the bounty hunter truce.

 

If your DS he joins up and he's a real freak. You get influence with him by treating him like crap.

[Trom]

Shadow, I wondered about that if playing the DS, which I've never done in either game would give you different team members. I also saw Disciple as a team member in the code. Does he also show up on the DS team? It doesn't seem to make sense.