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No P&P evolution needed!


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#1
Ashantara

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When I read the subtitle of this forum, I couldn't resist to open this thread... o:)"


How should PnP RPG evolve?

Well... IT SHOULDN'T!

The only result you get nowadays when attempts are being made to create a better, bigger, hotter RPG is that you end up getting a hack&slay-heavy, powergaming-oriented set of rules (see D&D 3.5, for example).

And that sucks. :)


Back to classic RPG-ing, I say! :)

#2
palathas

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Don't forget the Core Books for D&D are only a guide as they state. How much of the content you use is totally up to the players and the DM. If you want to get back to classic Rping try something with a regular group. Use a few modules but put away the Guides and dice and the DM decides the outcome of battles and other encounters ( interactions with NPCs, not just combat) on how players say their characters react. It's a very interesting experiment that gets players using imaginations a lot more and dice a lot less when playing by more conventional means.

#3
J.E. Sawyer

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I think using D&D 3.5 as the stand-in example for all modern RPGs is kind of silly. While I have plenty of problems with 3.XE, I certainly prefer modern versions to 2nd Ed. I don't role-play any more or less in either system, so my choices are purely based on what I like in the mechanics.

#4
Darque

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Back to classic RPG-ing, I say! :blink:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Which, depending on system, is also a hack&slay-heavy, powergaming-oriented set of rules :(

#5
Drakron

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I think using D&D 3.5 as the stand-in example for all modern RPGs is kind of silly.  While I have plenty of problems with 3.XE, I certainly prefer modern versions to 2nd Ed.  I don't role-play any more or less in either system, so my choices are purely based on what I like in the mechanics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I agree.

2nd ed AD&D was plain wacky when it comes why some things worked that way, d20 3rd ed D&D even if removed the 2nd ed artifical restrictions at least it make then cost.

"3.5" is wacky in the sense nobody really think the changes over, also a lot of things were done to make some classes more populat at the expense of others (cleric vs wizard spells) or just for the heck of it (the new damage resistence system).

Yet none of it prevents roleplay, I am not going to say the "diablo" mentality does not exist in many of the new players that is a old problem.

#6
Sammael

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I was very anti-3.5 DR, but I've since changed my mind.

As stated, the system does not influence roleplaying much, if at all. The system is there to make the GM's life easier and to ensure smooth gameplay. D&D 3.x isn't perfect, but it's a quantum leap when compared to AD&D.

#7
Sammael

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BTW, I would like the thread author to clarify what he considers to be "classic roleplaying" before we go on with the discussion.

#8
Monte Carlo

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There are, in my experience, roughly four camps of pen & paper gamers:

1. Free-style story-tellers

These guys have been at it for so long, and enjoy the story-telling, creative aspect of RP'ing so much that they, somewhere along the line, simply ditched the rules. They would be playing Fudge or some other open-ended, rules-lite system that allows them to concentrate on story-telling. For these people there is little or no point in even bothering to buy rules supplements and the like; they don't need them. These people are pretty hard-core and make up a small minority of RP'ers.

2. Vanilla RPG'ers

Vanilla might not do these guys justice, and it is a bit of a generalization, but most gamers fall into this middle category. They enjoy rules (but not too much) and they enjoy role-lpaying (but not at the expense of having fun). They might be veterans, they might be munchkins or they might even be once-every-three-months for old times sake gamers. What they have in common is a sense of balance; give 'em too many rules and iterations of a system and they might abandon them. They can be fairly discriminating in what they buy, too, and are leery of constant errata/ splatbook-itis.

3. Collector-Savants

The collector-savant might not even game that much. He just loves collecting books, supplements and rulesets. He is a significant part of the RPG firmament, and publishers rely heavily on this guy and his expensive splatbook habit. When he games, he is a pain because he'll want to be able to use all the wacky/ munchkin optional rules from the Essential Arcane Folio of Greyhawkian Pasta Recipes or whatever.

4. Grognard Wargamers

I happily admit to being part of this camp. We are a dwindling bunch of ex-military wargamer types who fell into role-playing games via the early iterations of D&D, decamping from the old SPi, hex-based wargames, or Squad Leader. Grognards love rules, realism and pedantry. A Grognard/ Collector-Savant multi-class is one of the most terrifying beasts ever to stalk the gaming jungle. Grognard Wargamers and Free-style storytellers do not, as a rule, mix. The Grognard will defend 1E AD&D, RuneQuest, Busdhido, Traveller and other old-skool RPGs.

---

So, to answer the question, what kind of gamer you are will probably dictate what kind of ruleset you like. Beauty of it is, whatever you are, the hobby will almost certainly accommodate your tastes.

Cheers
MC

#9
AlanC9

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The Grognard will defend 1E AD&D, RuneQuest, Bushido, Traveller and other old-skool RPGs.


Or will have a bitter and undying vendetta against said system.

#10
Loof

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Good classifications, altho I think splitting up vanilla RPG'ers in subcategorys like you said would improve it.

Hmm but now that I think of it im not sure where to classify myself... I think odd as it may sound that I would be a multiclass Free-style story-teller/Collector-Savant. In that when i actualy game a prefer a ruleslight system that alows freedom of improvisation, but I dont want to skip the rules altogether since that leads to game master dictatorships (meaning its realy just teh gamemaster telling the players a story), and I also collect RPG books just to read them so thats the savant part .... :(

#11
Monte Carlo

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The Grognard will defend 1E AD&D, RuneQuest, Bushido, Traveller and other old-skool RPGs.


Or will have a bitter and undying vendetta against said system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


True. Very true.

#12
The WarOverlord

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There are, in my experience, roughly four camps of pen & paper gamers:

1. Free-style story-tellers

These guys have been at it for so long, and enjoy the story-telling, creative aspect of RP'ing so much that they, somewhere along the line, simply ditched the rules. They would be playing Fudge or some other open-ended, rules-lite system that allows them to concentrate on story-telling. For these people there is little or no point in even bothering to buy rules supplements and the like; they don't need them. These people are pretty hard-core and make up a small minority of RP'ers.

2. Vanilla RPG'ers

Vanilla might not do these guys justice, and it is a bit of a generalization, but most gamers fall into this middle category. They enjoy rules (but not too much) and they enjoy role-lpaying (but not at the expense of having fun). They might be veterans, they might be munchkins or they might even be once-every-three-months for old times sake gamers. What they have in common is a sense of balance; give 'em too many rules and iterations of a system and they might abandon them. They can be fairly discriminating in what they buy, too, and are leery of constant errata/ splatbook-itis.

3. Collector-Savants

The collector-savant might not even game that much. He just loves collecting books, supplements and rulesets. He is a significant part of the RPG firmament, and publishers rely heavily on this guy and his expensive splatbook habit. When he games, he is a pain because he'll want to be able to use all the wacky/ munchkin optional rules from the Essential Arcane Folio of Greyhawkian Pasta Recipes or whatever.

4. Grognard Wargamers

I happily admit to being part of this camp. We are a dwindling bunch of ex-military wargamer types who fell into role-playing games via the early iterations of D&D, decamping from the old SPi, hex-based wargames, or Squad Leader. Grognards love rules, realism and pedantry. A Grognard/ Collector-Savant multi-class is one of the most terrifying beasts ever to stalk the gaming jungle. Grognard Wargamers and Free-style storytellers do not, as a rule, mix. The Grognard will defend 1E AD&D, RuneQuest, Busdhido, Traveller and other old-skool RPGs.

---

So, to answer the question, what kind of gamer you are will probably dictate what kind of ruleset you like. Beauty of it is, whatever you are, the hobby will almost certainly accommodate your tastes.

Cheers
MC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Okay, so where do I fall considering my first D&D game was SSI's "Curse of the Azure Bonds" for the PC, and played the rest of the Goldbox series, Never actually played PnP D&D but collect the Forgotten Realms and other books I like and Currently play Neverwinter Nights with that little box on the bottom showing all the "number crunching results" shut?

Please note I collect the books based on the Games I played (e.g. I got the "Silver Marches" book cause that Area was mentioned in the NWN first Expansion Module)

Oooh, I was a "The Bandit Kings of China" player , a "Warcraft" Player, and "Star Control" and "Star Command" Player also...

#13
Monte Carlo

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You are a level 1 Collector-Savant.

If you don't play pen & paper RPGs then you'll possibly progress no further, but it ain't a biggie, is it?

Perhaps you have created a new hybrid I was hitherto unaware of, the Computer D&D Crossover Guy.

This player loves D&D on the computer. The computer allows you to enjoy P&P without the inconvenience of actually having to mix with real-life D&D players! Extended interest might lead you into the foothills of collector-savantdom (qv), as your pixellated escapades leads you into perusing the source material.

Fair enough?

I think so, as like many people too busy to schedule pen & paper gaming, I'm verring off into this category myself (albeit with a few levels of the Grognard PrC).

Cheers
MC




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