Planescape

[Ivan the Terrible]

I love PS:T too much to ever play it againg. I don't want to find any errors, wich is bound to happen with several playtroughs. I'm too much a fanboy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One of the most beautiful things about Torment: multiple playthroughs reveal more plot nuances and things you didn't notice before than errors. There are, of course, always problems in any game....but if you're holding off playing again for that reason, set your mind at ease. The plot holds together much better than you'd expect.

[Dranoel]

Such a short game though -

You get to the dead nations, become the silent king and you've finished it - I mean honestly that's not more than 5 hours gameplay at most!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Sounds more fun than ending up the bloodwars.

 

I got the Oblivion ending which worked for me. Playing the game to the "end" was then a bit pointless.

[Buck]

great game thatll never leave my HD

[Claws]

About the dead nations:

 

 

How do you become the Silent King??? I was never able to do that. I manage to get Mary to tell me about the portal, then I go in and find out that there is no Silent King... What are you supposed to do then to declare yourself the Silent King?

 

 

Dranoel: Dead nations ain't even halfway through the game! So much more to do after.

 

My dream game would be a remake of PS:T with extremely good 3d graphics, I mean so good that every detail from the 2d backgrounds of PS:T is present, and basically the exact script word for word and the same soundtrack... and maybe have the original voice actors voice their entire lines... BUT... make it optional incase it doesn't work out! Also, along with the usual descriptions, you would see the character models animating and doing whatever you're being told they are doing in the script. Of course that's never gonna happen, imagine how much work it would be to do all these animationsa for every single event in the game!!!!

[mr insomniac]

Torment was once described by a friend as, "a gem among pebbles." For me, this statement still holds true today.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Let it be known -- plenty of "intelligent" gamers do not think Planescape is the best thing since  sliced bread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Plenty of "intelligent" gamers are also Communists.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hey!! ..no, wait I forgot Im not a communist.

 

 

 

I just finished playing PsT and I did not find it to be the undisputed aphex of CRPGs as many of you would like to belive it is.

 

+ good story

+ well written dialouge

+ intelligent roleplaying options

 

- character interaction was not deep enough, Bg2 or KoTOR both offered deeper and more detailed interaction with your companions. Also many threads never got proper closure

like how Morte hints that it was by him withholding information when he was alive that you ended up this way, but that just gets dropped? or am I missing something here?

 

 

- many story elements(even essential ones) were difficult to access or had very high requirements to pass

for instance you had to have INT 17 and ask what seemed to be the same question twice to get "the good reincarnation" to reveal who he was and why this happened

and countless other examples. Your average gamer wouldnt get half the full experience of PsT without a walkthrough+cheating and thats pretty bad.

 

- many story elemnts lacked any real sensible explanation- like why TNO was condemned to fight the blood wars forever. He was just generally evil? What? Why wasnt he just sent to some prison or limbo or whatever instead, I cant see any connection here?

 

 

 

And on a more personal basis, the mood and setting didnt do it for me at all. It was beyond dark, it was downright depressing. PsT is not an adventure, its a journey into darkness and suffering. I dont mind this usually but PsT has a really stiffling theme to it that really lacks any positive side.

 

 

Still, its a pretty unique game that really needed to be made.

[Sammael]

If you think BG2 and KotOR had deeper and more detailed NPC interaction, you must have somehow missed roughly 50% of the game. Even those who hate Torment generally agree that it had superb NPC interaction.

 

By the way, you completely missed the entire Morte story arc, which is revealed in its entirety at the Pillar of Skulls (provided you didn't figure it out earlier, by virtue of having a high Int, Wis, and Cha). I can only presume that you skimmed the dialogues at the Pillar, or didn't have Morte with you at the time.

 

Torment doesn't force-feed you clues, like BG2 does. It is a lot more subtle, which is why it is more to my liking. However, apparently Joe Q. Gamer obviosly wants to be force-fed with the story, which is why Torment failed commercially.

[kirottu]

By the way, you completely missed the entire Morte story arc, which is revealed in its entirety at the Pillar of Skulls (provided you didn't figure it out earlier, by virtue of having a high Int, Wis, and Cha). I can only presume that you skimmed the dialogues at the Pillar, or didn't have Morte with you at the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmm, I never noticed this because I like to(always ) play mage character, but I like to say that kaftan has strong points in his(her, whatever?) behalf. Missing about 50% of the game for not making a specific kind of character is too much, way too much.

[Xiw]

Torment doesn't force-feed you clues, like BG2 does. It is a lot more subtle, which is why it is more to my liking. However, apparently Joe Q. Gamer obviosly wants to be force-fed with the story, which is why Torment failed commercially.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Naw, Torment failed commerically because it was set in Planescape. If it had taken place with the same story line in FR it would've sold a ton. The casual gamer wants moon elfs, not a walking corpse who eats bugs.

[Sammael]

By the way, you completely missed the entire Morte story arc, which is revealed in its entirety at the Pillar of Skulls (provided you didn't figure it out earlier, by virtue of having a high Int, Wis, and Cha). I can only presume that you skimmed the dialogues at the Pillar, or didn't have Morte with you at the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmm, I never noticed this because I like to(always ) play mage character, but I like to say that kaftan has strong points in his(her, whatever?) behalf. Missing about 50% of the game for not making a specific kind of character is too much, way too much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah, I exaggerated. However, I do think he may have skimmed through some parts of the game, and probably didn't bother to initiate dialogue with the NPCs.

 

The thing is, you can only unlock the Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon as a mage, and being a mage also helps you learn more about Ignus and Nordom. Most of the other stuff is available to all characters with appropriate stats - and Torment provides ample stat increeases all throughout the game (I once finished the game with all 25s, except for Str, which was 19 or 20). Having a high Wis, Int, and Cha from the beginning definitely helps, though.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Hmm, I never noticed this because I like to(always ) play mage character, but I like to say that kaftan has strong points in his(her, whatever?) behalf. Missing about 50% of the game for not making a specific kind of character is too much, way too much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

PST is a meta gamers dream.

 

As for PST not forcefeeding you story, it does, constantly. There are not many places you can go where PST does not forcefeed you, or spoonfeed you story. PST also spoonfeeds you the character as well.

 

What they missed was that people dont want to play pregenerated characters they want to play their own characters. PST was an experiment in a JRPG/BG hybrid one that failed.

 

While I love both JRPGs (for the story and interactions) and the BG create your own character and see how it reacts to the world. I dont like the forced PST method of giving you what is essentially a complete character then wiping the memory so you can play it as your own. Thats without going into the effects this had on the gameplay overall.

 

It's not something I ever want to see again either. While you could argue that KOTOR did the same thing. KOTOR was subtle about it. Although I have to confess had I read the rule book (rental didnt come with one) I would have seen through the plot a lot sooner.

 

I also felt the whole thing was overdone and tried way too hard to be downbeat and depressing.

[Sammael]

After all these years of self-announced Torment hatred, you still force yourself to read Torment-related threads, ShadowPaladin? I pity you.

[pulp]

What they missed was that people dont want to play pregenerated characters they want to play their own characters. PST was an experiment in a JRPG/BG hybrid one that failed.

 

That's an opinion, however. It could well be said that people simply want to be entertained or engaged in an immersive story. TNO's history was central to this not because of his "nature" as with BG or countless other console titles, but with decisions that TNO had made. I found the process of rediscovery refreshing.

 

Now, what made PST truly stand out is somehow the ones who came up with the story tapped into something basic and primeval about human nature. Which is probably why it was so easy to identify with TNO on so many levels -- my conjecture, of course.

 

 

It's not something I ever want to see again either.

 

I don't think it can be done in a similar fashion unless designers made any other game with the same circumstances suitably mythic.

 

I also felt the whole thing was overdone and tried way too hard to be downbeat and depressing.

 

I felt it was done just right given the story that eventually unfolded.

[zer"0"]

Do I smell a ... troll?

<_<

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

After all these years of self-announced Torment hatred, you still force yourself to read Torment-related threads, ShadowPaladin? I pity you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Save it I really dont need it.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

That's an opinion, however. It could well be said that people simply want to be entertained or engaged in an immersive story.  TNO's history was central to this not because of his "nature" as with BG or countless other console titles, but with decisions that TNO had made. I found the process of rediscovery refreshing.

 

Now, what made PST truly stand out is somehow the ones who came up with the story tapped into something basic and primeval about human nature. Which is probably why it was so easy to identify with TNO on so many levels -- my conjecture, of course.

 

I don't think it can be done in a similar fashion unless designers made any other game with the same circumstances suitably mythic.

 

I felt it was done just right given the story that eventually unfolded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually its not. It's common knowledge that PST borrowed various elements common to JRPGs. JRPGs are almost invaribly about some destiny or doom which the hero carries which they unravel over the course of the game. Either by recovering their memory (it was done before PST btw) or by finding out about their family or the like.

 

But it's still a story about a character that isnt your own. Thats the potential failing of all games with pre gen characters.

You must have heard people say "I wont touch FFX because Tidus looks like a boyband reject" ?

 

With a character that you allow the player to create that is never an issue because they dont have to play a character they dont like. KOTOR is quite clever in how it combines the two.

 

I meant I never want to see another game that uses such a cheesey plot device again. :D

 

Really could anyone care less what happened to such a hole ? Ok the story being somewhat more personal in nature it's not quite as important but whats worse going into the bloodwars or living in that crapheap...

[Kaftan Barlast]

Nah, I exaggerated. However, I do think he may have skimmed through some parts of the game, and probably didn't bother to initiate dialogue with the NPCs.

 

 

I did talk exstensively with the PCs repeated times just to find out if I could trigger more chatting. What I got our of Morte was:

 

 

 

He was a wise man who was put on the pillar of skulls for withholding information that led to the death of someone. Your earlier incarnation "the practical one" freed Morte to get info from him but as Morte was removed from the pillar he forgot everything but TNO still let him hang around. What doesnt add up is Mortes guilt for withholding info that led to TNOs death- he didnt! The original TNO was killed by shadows(another thing that doesnt add up, if he hadnt died yet how come the shadows were after him?) in the planes, probably before Morte was even born.

 

naturally I also got the "what about the extra line on my back?" conversation

 

 

 

 

Now Im pretty shure I milked everything I could out of my NPCs and I still didnt feel as close to them as with my NPCs in BG or KoTOR, ad Im one gets really invovled in games.

 

 

oh, and how far can one go with Annah? I got as far as kissing her so she turn red hot.

[zer"0"]

I did talk exstensively with the PCs repeated times just to find out if I could trigger more chatting. What I got our of Morte was:

 

 

 

He was a wise man who was put on the pillar of skulls for withholding information that led to the death of someone. Your earlier incarnation "the practical one" freed Morte to get info from him but as Morte was removed from the pillar he forgot everything but TNO still let him hang around. What doesnt add up is Mortes guilt for withholding info that led to TNOs death- he didnt! The original TNO was killed by shadows(another thing that doesnt add up, if he hadnt died yet how come the shadows were after him?) in the planes, probably before Morte was even born.

 

naturally I also got the "what about the extra line on my back?" conversation

 

 

 

 

Now Im pretty shure I milked everything I could out of my NPCs and I still didnt feel as close to them as with my NPCs in BG or KoTOR, ad Im one gets really invovled in games.

 

 

oh, and how far can one go with Annah? I got as far as kissing her so she turn red hot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Kaftan, here is part of the chat I had with Morte...

 

 

 

 

[Llyranor]

*strangles zer"0"*

 

You jerk, now my desire to replay PST has resurfaced again :ph34r:

[Claws]

What they missed was that people dont want to play pregenerated characters they want to play their own characters. PST was an experiment in a JRPG/BG hybrid one that failed.

 

Uh no. I'd rather play a pregenerated character with his/her own story than a cardboard character with as much personality as a wall. PS:T did it perfectly, you "create" the character by assigning his stats, yet that character has his own motivations, struggles, etc...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Uh no. I'd rather play a pregenerated character with his/her own story than a cardboard character with as much personality as a wall. PS:T did it perfectly, you "create" the character by assigning his stats, yet that character has his own motivations, struggles, etc...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dont need much more proof than that that PST is the ultimate spoonfeeder. If your characters have no personality or motivation it's because you dont or cant give them one.

[pulp]

Actually its not. It's common knowledge that PST borrowed various elements common to JRPGs. JRPGs are almost invaribly about some destiny or doom which the hero carries which they unravel over the course of the game. Either by recovering their memory (it was done before PST btw) or by finding out about their family or the like.

 

But it's still a story about a character that isnt your own. Thats the potential failing of all games with pre gen characters.

You must have heard people say "I wont touch FFX because Tidus looks like a boyband reject" ?

 

I disagree. It might be that we're confused between a PC having a strong background and how you eventually roleplay your PC. Playing TNO, you could be peevish and reject the circumstances of your past.

 

You could even end it all in the Shadowplane if you so chose. In fact, the only static unchanging bit about PST was your past just before you slide off the bier/rack/table. How you respond in the world while moving towards a resolution of the game is entirely up to the player.

 

And btw, I think very few games, if not stories, thrusts a character in media res a carte blanche. Even a simple Lvl 1 character requires some obligatory background. It's a matter of establishing the most basic of settings. PST just had it in heaps and heaps, and was quite sophistiscated in its complexity given how each incarnation of TNO was different. I think it worked perfectly, in my opinion.

 

With a character that you allow the player to create that is never an issue because they dont have to play a character they dont like. KOTOR is quite clever in how it combines the two.

 

I agree with this -- there is that aspect of customization that people do enjoy (I know I do). Did KOTOR do this well? Well it depends what you mean. I found myself indifferent to it all, personally.

 

I meant I never want to see another game that uses such a cheesey plot device again.  :D

 

Oh, I'd agree with this too, only because I think PST's done such a good job of it, anything else that comes along should use PST as a benchmark.

 

Really could anyone care less what happened to such a hole ? Ok the story being somewhat more personal in nature it's not quite as important but whats worse going into the bloodwars or living in that crapheap...

 

That the story in PST was personal is of vital importance.

 

As for the bloodwars vs. "that crapheap", well, there's the rub. Even this either/or could be read on several levels. It'll depend, I suppose, on your opinion of it all.

[~Di]

Eh, for the most part I prefer to create my own characters. BUT there are notable exceptions.

 

Gothic I and II were such notable exceptions. FFVII and VIII were notable exceptions.

 

And Planescape:Torment was definitely such a notable exception.

 

I consider PS:T to be an interactive novel, one that kept me glued to the edge of my seat for more hours than I care to confess with characters so real that even thinking about them gives me a visceral reaction. Granted, it didn't have the massive replay value of a Baldurs Gate/IWD type game. But it continues to haunt me enough that I must replay it once a year, simply to re-experience the wonder of it.

 

I don't have a shrine to TNO in my computer room :D ... but I have to confess that even after all these years, PS:T is still the most unique of my gaming experiences, and definitely in my personal top five games of all time. It's truly a magnificent game.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Most people would probably call me a whore for saying this but in all honesty, KoTOR is the best, most involving cRPG Ive ever played.

 

 

..I read some stuff, synopsis, transcripts etc. of PsT and It appears I did milk out all the characters, and still I remain unimpressed.