213374U Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 Most people would probably call me a whore for saying this but in all honesty, KoTOR is the best, most involving cRPG Ive ever played. ..I read some stuff, synopsis, transcripts etc. of PsT and It appears I did milk out all the characters, and still I remain unimpressed. Well, even though I didn't like PsT either, that's not a fair comparison. Reading about it is nothing like actually playing it. And as for KotOR... well, the more time passes, the less I like it. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 I read those to verify that I had not missed anything vital. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan the Terrible Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Most people would probably call me a whore for saying this but in all honesty, KoTOR is the best, most involving cRPG Ive ever played. ..I read some stuff, synopsis, transcripts etc. of PsT and It appears I did milk out all the characters, and still I remain unimpressed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wouldn't call you a whore, anymore than I would call someone a whore for taking the opposite view of championing PS:T. However, I would recommend psychiatric treatment. KotOR simply can't hold a candle to PS:T in regards to story. Where KotOR's villains are one-dimensional, flat, and unconvincing (see: Saul Karath, Darth Malak), PS:T's villains are fleshed out and have motives one can understand, even sympathize with (see: Ravel, Trias.) Where KotOR's storyline is predictable and often non-sensical (an attempt to list all the loose ends, plot holes, and poorly considered ideas and dialogue would take all night, but I'll elaborate if you ask), PS:T's holds together remarkably well, given it's complexity, and takes an approach rarely seen in any game, RPG or no. Where KotOR relies on a Sixth Sense-style plot twist to sustain itself, PS:T goes for a slowly unfolding story that's rich and satisfying enough to grab your attention without a 'gotcha!' moment. Where KotOR ends with some of the most standard, uninspired endings imaginable (yes, Revan virtually destroyed the Republic and murdered millions, but now that he's been brainwashed to our side let's give him a medal and cheer as if nothing happened!), PS:T ends on the single most gutsy and fitting note I've seen in a game. Ever. In short, I disagree completely. PS:T is simply in a league of it's own storywise, and KotOR simply can't compete. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan the Terrible Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Dont need much more proof than that that PST is the ultimate spoonfeeder. If your characters have no personality or motivation it's because you dont or cant give them one. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep. Nothing makes a game quite come to life like getting to imagine that your character is saying something interesting when he's instead restricted to flat, generic dialogue designed to avoid conflicting with someone's conception of their character. My Dark Elf character from Morrowind (I forget his name) was one of my favorite characters ever; the one-word conversations options which I imagined consisted of brilliantly witty verbal sparring was among the best dialogue I've ever pretended I read. [/sarcasm] But seriously, most RPGs have to straddle a balance of custom design to give the player a sense of freedom and pregenerated history or traits to give the plot something to grab hold of: think BG's Bhaalspawn, KOTOR's Revan, Fallout's Vault Dweller, Fallout 2's Chosen One; all with that one trait which allows the Developers to hook the character into the plot. Without anything pregenerated, all you've got is a flat, generic storyline in which your character is completely incidental and boring. PS:T tips in the favor of the pregenerated, with your past already documented....but unlike JRPGs, where both your words and your actions are already pre-designed, PS:T did allow you to play the present Nameless One incarnation as you saw fit. It's thus unfair to compare PS:T to a JRPG. It certainly comes nowhere near the 'spoonfeeding' seen in your average Final Fantasy game. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Heh. It seems somebody messed with ol' Ivan's soft spot. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darque Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 I'd like to point out that Ivan always seems to have the most disturbing avatars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 I agree that my preference of KoTOR over PsT is a little like choosing pizza over a three-course dinner. Or comparing apples&oranges, but in any case- personal preference determines everything. But if youre as bored as me an attempt to list all the loose ends, plot holes, and poorly considered ideas and dialogue would take all night, but I'll elaborate if you ask please go ahead. I always welcome a good debate. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesselle Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Is there some way of improvng the graphical quality - bumping the game to 1024x768 like in IWD2? I tried to play again recently - got as far as Pharod and had to give up cos of the graphics. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> windowed mode. V***V well whatever nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargallath Abraxium Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 ...one word: YUMMY!!! ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mEtaLL1x Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Damn, Ivanushka, nice work! Although, I think KOTOR2 is getting in the field of comparison with BG/PST, don't you think? But yet again, tastes differ. Belive it or not, BG2 hooked me up harder than Torment, although I love 'em both. But BG2 was a wee bit more enjoyable for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Uh no. I'd rather play a pregenerated character with his/her own story than a cardboard character with as much personality as a wall. PS:T did it perfectly, you "create" the character by assigning his stats, yet that character has his own motivations, struggles, etc... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dont need much more proof than that that PST is the ultimate spoonfeeder. If your characters have no personality or motivation it's because you dont or cant give them one. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Refer to Ivan's post above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargallath Abraxium Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 ...warms me ol' heart that ShadowP still bothers ta post in PS:T topics...5 years o' the same "Final Fantasy pwns PS:T becuz...story...NPCs...water polo..." an' it still be good fer a laugh or two e'ery time...glad ta see 'nother "Ol' Timer" besides meself'll ne'er change... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan the Terrible Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 please go ahead. I always welcome a good debate. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Alright. Let's see, bad ideas, plot inconsistencies, piss-poor dialogue....I'll start off with plot inconsistencies. - Depending on who you talk to (Jolee Bindo and Canderous being the two offenders I can think of off the top of my head), the old Sith Empire was either destroyed way back when and now replaced by a new one created out of whole cloth by Revan and Malak, or still existed after Tales of the Jedi and just retreated back into it's Empire, apparently while the Republic just sat there and watched. The game can't make up it's mind whether the Sith you're fighting are brand new or old with new leadership (check one of the random dialogues on Dantooine; 'I hear the Sith are beating the Republic pretty bad. They must have spent the whole time building ships since we beat them last time.') - The Leviathan is 'Saul Karath's flagship.' According to the Bioware website, it was his flagship during the Mandalorian Wars, as well. Yet, astonishingly, it looks exactly the same as the Sith warships coming out of the Star Forge. What a coincidence! - The Jedi Council decides not to send a Master to accompany Revan because the presence of such a figure 'would serve only to attract attention to your mission, dooming it to failure.' Apparently, however, travelling with the single most wanted Jedi in the entire Galaxy is enough to let you slip under the Sith radar. - Saul Karath tortures you to get the location of the Jedi Academy (though he already knows the location and is just testing you), and Bastila is greatly upset if you tell him where it is. Earlier, she shares a vision with you of Revan and Malak on Dantooine, accessing the Star Map; does she think Malak just didn't notice the HUGE JEDI COMPOUND a little bit in the distance when he came to the planet? - The constant inability of your party to detect that, yes, you're a monstrous, collosal bastard is a near constant. You can spend the entire game butchering everyone and everything, torturing innocents for grins, and Mission will still be astonished that you've fallen to the Dark Side on the Rakatan Temple and think you haven't fallen totally. - Speaking of the Star Map on Dantooine, the council sends the Jedi Nemo to investigate the ruins; you find his body when you arrive there. Earlier, the vision you receive shows Malak warning Revan that the Jedi Council sealed the archway they're about to pass through, and that if they pass it they will surely be banished. Soooo....why in god's name would they send Nemo to get killed if they knew about the Star Map and were simply feigning ignorance for Revan's sake? For that matter, why not just tell Revan the truth and inform him about the Star Map if they knew about it? How does that compromise Revan's identity? - So the Sith are searching tirelessly for Bastila....and yet no matter where you go, even on Taris where the whole planet is under quarantine in order to prevent her escape, even if she walks around with her double-bladed yellow lightsaber on constantly, the Sith have no comment on her presence. You'd think they would go to the trouble of putting up Wanted posters, or at least giving a description to their men. - So do the Wookies on Kashyysk know that Chuundar negotiated quotas or don't they? Some Wookies will be enraged at the notion that Chuundar is working with slavers in any capacity....and others will tell you that if they kill any Czerka guards, the quotas Chuundar negotiated go up, while apparently the Wookies who don't believe Chuundar works with slavers have no comment on the footpaths for outsiders that travel right to their village gates. Which is it? - Dustil needs proof that the Sith are not on the moral up-and-up.....having been taught at an academy where they regularly use prisoners for target practice, are encouraged to betray each other, and are learning to use what even they openly call the 'Dark Side.' How dense can you get? - Calo Nord apparently tells Saul Karath about Carth Onasi and Bastila Shan escaping from Taris....and yet due to the nature of the level you fight him on, it's impossible to have them both in your party in the same time, since you need Canderous with you. - Lightsabers are rare enough that the comparitively tough Sith guy in the basement of the base on Taris says his master will give him his when he earns it by killing you. They're also common enough that every two-bit wimp of a Sith apprentice has his own after Taris, despite being pushovers in comparison. - So no one knows what Revan looked like due to his hood and mask. Somehow, I find it interesting to think of Revan as a Light Side Jedi dressed in a solid black robe with a menacing mask. No wonder everyone was so shocked when he fell to the Dark Side. I'm sure there are more, but that's enough for now. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverwinterKnight Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 - Saul Karath tortures you to get the location of the Jedi Academy (though he already knows the location and is just testing you), and Bastila is greatly upset if you tell him where it is. Earlier, she shares a vision with you of Revan and Malak on Dantooine, accessing the Star Map; does she think Malak just didn't notice the HUGE JEDI COMPOUND a little bit in the distance when he came to the planet? i think its more a case of bastila being upset that you would actually freely give the location away, rather than her being upset that you gave away some big secret. - Dustil needs proof that the Sith are not on the moral up-and-up.....having been taught at an academy where they regularly use prisoners for target practice, are encouraged to betray each other, and are learning to use what even they openly call the 'Dark Side.' How dense can you get? dark side corruption is easy when the person is blinded by anger and a taste for revenge. dustils planet got destroyed and felt his father deserted them. its easier to influence someone and make them think a certain thing is "ok", even if to the rest of us it obviously isnt. thats why they say that falling to the dark side is often something the person doesnt see themselves doing until its too late. - Calo Nord apparently tells Saul Karath about Carth Onasi and Bastila Shan escaping from Taris....and yet due to the nature of the level you fight him on, it's impossible to have them both in your party in the same time, since you need Canderous with you. this more than likely assumes calo saw you with them before you meet canderous, either in the slums appartment complex when he kills those two rodians, or in the cantina when he kills those three aliens. either of those times you were more than likely with carth and/or bastila, and thus he might have put 2 and 2 together. the rest im in agreement with, but the ones i quoted i think those explanations work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 i think its more a case of bastila being upset that you would actually freely give the location away, rather than her being upset that you gave away some big secret. Still is pretty dumb since Malak knew the location all the time, also I remenber that Bastilla saying the Sith would not dare to attack Dantooine when we escaped from Taris so Revan was not exactly telling anything they did not knew. dark side corruption is easy when the person is blinded by anger and a taste for revenge. dustils planet got destroyed and felt his father deserted them. its easier to influence someone and make them think a certain thing is "ok", even if to the rest of us it obviously isnt. thats why they say that falling to the dark side is often something the person doesnt see themselves doing until its too late. KotOR does a horrible way of showing the dark side, its more "the bully side" and even if Korriban does some reason to follow the Sith ideas its only makes things worst because its the only place in the game were there is a actual lure to the dark side, the rest is just being a **** and bully people around. Anyway your reasoning fails because he is blinded to all the evil the Sith does (including killing his mother) but it only needs to know they killed a friend so he turns his back on then ... now if there was something building to that it would work but its simply too fast. this more than likely assumes calo saw you with them before you meet canderous, either in the slums appartment complex when he kills those two rodians, or in the cantina when he kills those three aliens. either of those times you were more than likely with carth and/or bastila, and thus he might have put 2 and 2 together. I had Bastila and Canderous with me, I think most people do it because their other choices are a beeping transcan, a walking rug, a snotty girl and Carth. BioWare also have the habbit of assuming people will play in a certain way, its true there is a flaw since that part is pure assuption of all parts with no evidence. Lets look. They destoy the planet surface. A ship escaped the planet. Bastilla must be on that ship. There are missing parts, if we were shown Malak feeling Bastilla persence being on that ship that would lead to a more belivable scenario but since such scene does not exist ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverwinterKnight Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 hey i never said they were good reasons. i just said they could explain those few details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargallath Abraxium Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 ...KotOR canna hold a freakin' candle ta PS:T...anyone who believes different should be spade/neutered now 'afore they spreads the flawed DNA... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mEtaLL1x Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Of course KOTOR 1 is a weakling in comparison with PST! But hey, I was saying that KOTOR 2 might make a difference smaller! Don't forget - Chris Avellone worked on KOTOR2, and he was also one of the key figures in TOrment's development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Lead designer actually (and writer?) Ivan> That was hillarious and Ive noticed most of them too. But what do you think about character concept and interaction? DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mEtaLL1x Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Lead designer actually (and writer?) Yeah, and writer too. Well, both Torment and KOTOR2 dialogs were under his supervision. I'm just watiting to get me hands on KOTOR 2 to see the difference between it and KOTOR1, and I think it will be huge, in terms of char. interaction and dialogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 I think I'll wait a few years before playing Torment again. A truly lovely game from what's I probably remember hardly anything about after two years or so. Thank God(s) for loose human memory. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 I hate having a good memory, I cant replay RPGs. Currently Im playing Beneath A steel Sky which I played in 1994 and I still remember the key areas DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zer"0" Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 I think its only human. But I am surprised many times, by some people's memory capacity. I find it hard watching movies more than once, and I only replay a game if it has multiple endings or classes/abilities. Still if you had died and regenerated back to live like TNO, mayhap you would also lose some memories. Imagine playing Torment over and over... losing your memory and starting all over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverwinterKnight Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 this thread has got me interested in starting a new game of ps:t. but im in the middle of a play through of bg, although im kind of losing interest in the play through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mEtaLL1x Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 I don't know why, but something's keeping me away from replaying Torment.... and that's considering that I did not have every piece of it explored... Plus, so little time...... and plus, even if there is time - it will go to KOTOR 2 once I get it.... Hmm, but I replayed Fallout2 6 times.... and BG2 only 2 times...... Well, Torment is not very replayable for me... as is BG2 - too linear, but GOOD AS HELL!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now