Should Revan Have An "Offical" Gender?

[Valdrane]

Personally, I like him better as Darkside male, caus ehe gets the girl and RULES the galaxy. Is it just me, or is Bastila pretty hot for a buncha pixels.

[Midnight Hawk]

Am I going to have to sday this again, of cours eI am, caus esoem of you have thick skulls

In the Dark Horse comic books, "Knights of the Old Republic"  Revan is a Lightside male.

The only reason youc an choose a gende rin this game is because it is a ROLEPLAYING game, and as such, shoudl suit all manner of players, being male/female, white/black/asian, evil/good etc etc etc.  This is not me flaming you or trolling, you must have fun as well, and that is cool.  But TECHNICALLY Revan is a LIGHTSIDE MALE.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Umm wait are you saying that the comic of the game is more "offcial" than the game? Cos that isn't really a point at all....and there's not technically about it.

[Wynne]

The vast majority of recent posts to this thread are making me happy. I think I need a group hug right about now...

 

It may be baseless, but I think it's a rather safe conclusion to draw.  In any case, it's no more baseless and a lot less speculative than you believing he's wrong and that the female gaming population makes up a large part of the KOTOR market.  Again, like you asked (or atleast implied towards him), where's your proof?

 

Eeeexcluding this one.

 

Ya know what? I never said I had any proof. And since you don't have any more than I do, yet still insist your point of view is more valid, you kinda look like a jerk saying that.

 

The point is, it can't be proven. Statistics are bull regardless, like Nielsen ratings, which have caused the premature death of many an awesome television show. There's not enough data to say for sure one way or the other. People buy games for each other all the time (I buy strategy games and RPGs for my dad on holidays, whereas he buys me first-person shooters, third-person horror and RPGs--if someone took note of us buying these games at a store, they'd get our tastes mixed up). But considering how popular RPGs are in the first place, and the fact that this particular genre caters to females far more than most games (nearly always providing the option to play the game as a woman, whereas in earlier years they did not--why the change, if not but for female outcry?), is that not enough for you to believe that female gamers exist and bring in sales?

 

April from the Longest Journey... Kate from Syberia... these aren't exactly characters brought in so that you can watch their hindquarters jiggle. Heck, though I love her as a character, Kate is kind of horsefaced, and yet both of these games have earned enough clout to garner sequels. Why? Because men like horsefaced women? C'mon, are you going to tell me that a bunch of men played these games? Even though there's no nudity or skimpy outfits a la Lara Croft? (Yeah, just razzing there. But seriously, you HAVE to think there's an at least partially female audience for those games, and adventure is a genre very close to the heart of RPGs anyway.)

 

Also, even if you still aren't convinced that there's enough of a margin now, you have to see that it's an inevitable progression--sort of like women's sports. The attitude began as "Oh, women don't like sports, they like to knit." Now you see where that has gone. As stupidity and bias in culture receded and more dads took the time to share the games they loved with their daughters, more women played games. And more and more until you have women in every sport in their own leagues--not quite on the same obsession level as male sports at this point, but it has changed and continues to expand.

 

So, too, has the gaming industry... and it will continue to do so as attitudes and people change. Dads who care about their daughters can introduce them to whole new worlds, and end up doing them a lot of good in the long run. There's nothing I love so much as the gaming industry, but that could have easily not happened if I'd been born to different parents.

 

My dad raised me on games. I started out with Duck Hunt and Mario, then the King's Quest series, getting my arse eaten off by a troll seventeen times per pixelated screen, and slowly moved to games like Daggerfall, Morrowind, Thief, System Shock, Fallout, Planescape, etc. As time passes, the world progresses. It will continue to do so.

 

We're here. We're chick gamers. Get used to it--and learn to love it, because women who DON'T like games will only try to drag a guy away from the computer/console anyway, whereas a gamer will either play them with him or leave him the hell alone unless she's feeling randy, in which case if he's any kind of sensible person he'll hit the damn pause button and forget about games for a while. Better if the trend continues--better for everyone, both male and female.

[tmp]

Am I going to have to sday this again, of cours eI am, caus esoem of you have thick skulls

In the Dark Horse comic books, "Knights of the Old Republic"  Revan is a Lightside male.

The only reason youc an choose a gende rin this game is because it is a ROLEPLAYING game, and as such, shoudl suit all manner of players, being male/female, white/black/asian, evil/good etc etc etc.  This is not me flaming you or trolling, you must have fun as well, and that is cool.  But TECHNICALLY Revan is a LIGHTSIDE MALE.

Well, _technically_ Revan doesn't exist.

 

I don't see a problem, really. like many said, Revan can be whatever gender you prefer. The comic books you mention are aimed at those who prefer Revan as male, that's all. (if the publishers were really shrewd they'd follow the game's footsteps and make two versions with possibly slight differences to storyline ... if just to rack in more cash by covering both angles and getting twice the money from these who'd want to have 'full' story)

 

btw, being able to choose the gender, race and alignment in game has very little to do with _roleplaying_ ... as roleplaying is the ability to _play_ the role of someone you are _not_, gender, race, alignment and fashion sense or lack thereof included "

[metadigital]

I mean in history and in real life, where are they? My point is that would we buy that kind of character as being female?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you are too ignorant or just too lazy to do a search before making such statements, doesn't mean they never existed you know. Here's a nice link for starters, you might wanna check the Military and Warfare part, as well as Politics and Government.

 

http://www.distinguishedwomen.com/subject/field.html

 

If you can focus long enough on reading the text, oh superior one. "

 

There are plenty of similar sites on the net.

 

Edit: Oh and on topic, I believe Revan's and Exile's gender should be left up to the player to decide. That's why you can choose it at the first place. Lucasarts is a publisher, not the creator of the game, so their statement is just their opinion.

Personally I see both the Exile and Revan as female, but I agree that those who played as males are entitled to their preferences no less than I am.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well done DevilCat, and you too, Wynne. Darth Flatus, et alia, your ignorance does not excuse your imbercility. As DevilCat pointed out, think before you speak: go and research before you make ludicrous generalisations. If there is a paucity of female role models throughtout history, it is not because they are inferior, it is because they are not on the even playing field. Ever heard of Catherine di Medici? No, you probably haven't even heard of Leonardo.

 

I find bigotry offensive in the extreme and incredibly boorish (and indeed it is forbidden on the message boards).

 

 

In answer to the original question: NO NO NO NO !

 

I am male yet I normally prefer to play my characters as Female. Then again, I have also played both games as both sexes and all classes --- and sometimes choosing to go light or dark, and sometimes selecting the romance options and sometimes not. That's why it's roleplaying.

 

Just because you have a limited field of vision doesn't mean we all do. Now let this ridiculous thread atrophy and let us raise the level of conversation to something more stimulating, like the ontological ramifications of the Force having a Will ... or the theological underpinnings of The Force ... or the subtleties of Chaotic Good versus Lawful Good.

[The Great Phantom]

Wow people.

 

The answer is soo obvious.

 

Revan is whatever you wish.

 

 

End of Topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There! Laconic and right on target. Couldn't have said better myself. :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Me niether.

 

Canonically, Revan may be an LS Male, but I would prefer CHOICE! It's not that hard, and if the Devs can't come up with a way to put in both, then they should be fired! (JK, a little bit)

[Spooky]

Revan should be a woman who's in love with Bastila -- that's a compromise that satisfies both camps, I should think .

And if it doesn't, i present the alternative... be careful what you wish for, for male Revan might end up like this

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

...

 

OMG, What the hell is that ???

[Roger the Sith]

That is the definition of the word "fairy".

[GhostofAnakin]

Eeeexcluding this one.

 

Ya know what? I never said I had any proof. And since you don't have any more than I do, yet still insist your point of view is more valid, you kinda look like a jerk saying that.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't prove it without a shadow of a doubt, but my point was my estimation is a lot more logical, given the fact that a)9 out of 10 people are males when you go into your local video game store and b)most people on message boards are males or appear to be males. If there are females hiding incognito, then it's YOUR fault (a collective "you" for all females who hide their gender) for giving off the impression that you don't exist.

 

If, in fact, you are correct and there is this seemingly huge population of female gamers out there, then you only have yourself to blame for not "showing" yourselves so that developers and publishers know there is an actual market for it. As it is, (and this is the part you seem to have trouble with), why should people who make games ASSUME that there are a bunch of female gamers when only a select few actually bother to make themselves known? Why should a company like Lucasarts (since this is a TSL forum) put up $20 million or so (or whatever the cost of production) on the ASSUMPTION that there MAY be a market among female gamers, instead on concentrating on the existing KNOWN market of male gamers?

 

I think too often some female gamers seem to have this delusion that whatever they believe is in fact, fact. Because they and some of their friends are gamers, then that automatically means that there are more girl gamers than guy gamers now. Because they think gaming companies should cater to them, that means that gaming companies should shift their focus from a guaranteed thing (male audience) because of a supposed speculation that a bunch of female gamers are out there, even if they say the majority of them hide their gender and never actually give an accurate display of how many this supposed number of girl gamers there are.

 

And before you comment on me being a hypocrite for not giving proof to back my theories, there's a slight difference which makes it less important for me to back up my theory: the fact that game companies ALREADY agree with my theory. I'm not the one trying to convince these game companies they need to change their business practices, because they already operate under a similar belief as what my theory dictates, that there are much, MUCH, more male gamers in the world and thus a much more profitable market. You, on the other hand, want the game developers to change their business practices. Therefore the burden of proof is on you, since you're the one insisting that the current theory (ie. the one businesses currently go by) is wrong.

[Spooky]

GhostofAnikin is correct in his assumption, his example: that there are about 9 out of 10 male customers in a PC game store, is representative the market's composition, if only because we see that example repeatedly, if only because it is widely recognised. I have no official numbers to back up my claim either, but it is true that gaming companies aim their products at male gamers, what they want is to sell a product, there's a good chance that they are aware of these numbers better then any of us here.

 

This is not a contest, we are not trying to prove something here, it isn't bigotry or an attack on the female gaming population, it is the farthest thing from it, it is simply a fact. That dosen't mean that the female gaming population is non-existent, we know it's on the rise, and as we speak, game protagonists and heroes turn themselves more and more toward the female population as everything else in the world, as you can see, I have no numbers to support that either but I'm sure you'd agree. That said, I sustain that Revan's gender should be entirely up to the player.

 

This is a good thing, because now, females may not dismiss you as a geek or a weirdo when you state the fact that you enjoy playing video games :D , it will simply be another thing to talk about, and luckily share.

[Spooky]

That is the definition of the word "fairy".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Indeed, in a powerful and disturbing way.

[DeathScepter]

No No No No No No No

 

 

Revan is the player. Normal Player of Kotor is variety in sex, age, and personality.

[Silvershadow]

This is not a contest, we are not trying to prove something here, it isn't bigotry or an attack on the female gaming population, it is the farthest thing from it, it is simply a fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. I seriously don't understand why some girls don't GET that. I mean, seriously, have they ever set foot in a game store? I know I always become extremely aware of my gender when I do. The testosterone levels can be a little overwhelming at times.

 

It's not a sexist thing, it's just about MONEY. The companies aren't stupid -- they do market research all the time. If at any time, they started to see a noticeable change in the trend, they would start marketing toward female gamers more. But the mere fact that it's not changing indicates that, while there may or may not be more female gamers, it's still not enough of a change to make decent money off it.

 

A few years ago, car companies started noticing that women had more and more to say in the decision to buy a family car. So they started building more minivans with airbags and all that safety stuff, and they changed their advertising so that it's aimed more toward women. That is because they did their market research and saw a change. Like I said, it's all about making money. And until game designers start noticing such a change in their market, things will remain the same.

 

I don't know, I'm probably just rehashing what GoA has already said... but that's just because it's true.

 

Maybe it's just easier for me to understand because I work in a male-dominated industry. *shrugs* It doesn't always have to be about sexism.

[metadigital]

The sexism in society is an insidious thing.

 

If you had the chance to speak to Socrates, the first (and arguably greatest) philosopher in HIStory (even that word is sexist! ) he would extol the virtues of democracy as a form of government. But women were not permited to vote. Nor were slaves. Yet the Ancient Greeks believed they had a free society. If you told them to give the vote to all members of society, including the aforementioned disposessed, (assuming your ancient greek was up to snuff) he would surely look at you as if you were mad.

 

Yes, the Greeks had the most progressive political society in the ancient world, but that doesn't mean it was perfect.

 

I would be hesitant to state categorically that "Girls don't play games, therefore games shouldn't be designed to be inclusive." This contravenes the fundamental principle of a modern democracy (inclusiveness) and the most progressive political action in modern times (affirmative action). What you are really saying -- very patronisingly -- is that if you have two X chromosomes you don't want to play games and have fun. Piffle.

 

In other words, I believe if more games were more inclusive, then it follows that more girls would play them. And this isn't just adding female eye-candy; the whole interaction with the game might need to be re-thought. And that costs R&D money. And the return on investment is neither quantifiable nor predictable against an amortization timeline. That means a higher risk.

 

So it's better to churn out the same tired old cliched plots, characters and devices aimed at the same reliable immature audience than experiment and expand the boundaries of human experience. Sounds like the woeful state of the Hollywood cinema industry, or worse, the Pop music industry that produces endless cover versions of previous work, ad nauseum, for pre-teens who are too young to have seen the original, but old enough to have the disposable income to afford singles and ringtones.

 

So perhaps the inertia of "It's always been like that" is the reason we don't have a more equal gender distribution ...

[tmp]

The companies aren't stupid -- they do market research all the time. If at any time, they started to see a noticeable change in the trend, they would start marketing toward female gamers more. But the mere fact that it's not changing indicates that, while there may or may not be more female gamers, it's still not enough of a change to make decent money off it.

Isn't this a 'chicken and egg' thing? Trends and markets are to large extent formed by marketing nowadays, rather than just catered to. So as long as the current trend is "games are boys' thing" and there is no marketing push to change attitudes of people, probability to actually see any sort of change is little, and the change itself is going to be extremely slow. The very lack of attempt becomes the best excuse to do nothing.

 

::cue Kreia with her "know the right spots to apply a push and you can bring the house down" speech::

[Bounce]

mmm a hot evil Revan chick in tight black clothes, I would join her on the spot - Screw the 'light side' oh yeah.

 

Continue ..

[metadigital]

mmm a hot evil Revan chick in tight black clothes, I would join her on the spot - Screw the 'light side' oh yeah.

 

Continue ..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, I find female company eminently more enjoyable to be around for many different reasons, several of which your post illustrates perfectly.

[Atomic Space Vixen]

Don't you just love circular logic? "Most gamers are male so they make games targeted to them and so what if potential female gamers are turned off of the games they won't make games to try to attract them because most gamers are male."

And men still have the nerve to say women aren't logical.

 

Anyway, if the logic of trying to attract female gamers to increase sales is a little over your head, let's go after some of the other nonsense with a few numbers...

 

41.9 % of computer gamers are women.

 

There's that pesky 40-odd percentage again!

 

Not all games are purchased in specialty stores, 57% of computer games are purchased by women. This one has the number of players at 39%, but it's still in the same area.

 

Granted, the numbers are smaller for console games, but they are growing too (I greatly enjoy Amped and the Tony Hawk games, and Jet Set Radio Future).

So there you go, a definite and growing market that developers would be very stupid to ignore.

But never mind me. Feel free to yammer on about "...the mere fact that it's not changing indicates that, while there may or may not be more female gamers, it's still not enough of a change to make decent money off it," or "...that there are about 9 out of 10 male customers in a PC game store, is representative the market's composition, if only because we see that example repeatedly, if only because it is widely recognised. I have no official numbers to back up my claim either... we are not trying to prove something here, it isn't bigotry or an attack on the female gaming population, it is the farthest thing from it, it is simply a fact," or "Why should a company like Lucasarts (since this is a TSL forum) put up $20 million or so (or whatever the cost of production) on the ASSUMPTION that there MAY be a market among female gamers, instead on concentrating on the existing KNOWN market of male gamers?" After all, I'm sure you did the appropriate research.

[Lord Tarondor]

I thought you guys liked Barbie funhouse.

 

Honestly though, men have short attention spans and we need to be pleased quickly otherwise we might break out into fights over what color of skin Revan has. More games like KotOR cause problems so the solution is simple -- games with women characters, and games for men that have women characters we can play if we want to be kinky.

 

You can have your action games, and such, but Star Wars has, and probably will always be, a franchise in which the Light Sided Male is the standard.

 

As for 'facts' and 'research', I've researched, and I've also lived a little. I know a few girls who game but there are just tons more men who play, and its like any marketplace: heck, I'll give you an example.

 

NCAA Basketball -- there's women's and men's, but you wanna know something? The Men's March Madness Tournament sells. The women's tournament is little more than interesting save to those minority of women who enjoy basketball as fanatically as most men do. You don't see CBS or ESPN showing sixteen commercials for March Madness a minute -- the tournament itself is underwraps generally until the final four, and even then, most people don't know when it happens because advertisment for it is vague at best.

 

That's just how it is; it's like men complaining to Victoria's Secrets that there should be more male underwear and more money devoted to making sensual men's clothing that will attract women. There's no care for it, and there's no market for it, just like there's no market for making fleshed-out games that fit what you want for women. A company would be shooting itself in the foot if it catered to women less it was a kiddie girl's company.

 

As for non-specific gender characters, its like I say -- men want a compelling storyline that they can be immersed in and well frankly, gender specifics would be important because we want our story to always be the 'canonical' experience. Making a trilogy where three (if three has a new one) different characters are vague at best irks a lot of people from what I've read and heard and while its successful, you can't really blame them. It's their (our) market, and Star Wars and Star Trek have always been the nerdy-boy convention type.

 

Personally, I don't care but if anyone is saying women 'deserve' games in which they have main characters, all I can say is no one 'deserves' anything they don't work or strive for. Its a market, and in the end, its the company who is generally intelligent enough to succeed that makes the decision, and as of yet, the market hasn't really shifted and it probably won't.

 

Hell, a lot of women still have disdain for gamers or people who 'game' (mostly 15-17 yr olds) and find them to be 'loserish.' I personally have only one been insulted like that for discussing the finer points of why The Return of the King was a better game than TTT and FoTR and have seen it happen on numerous occasion.

 

While I'd love it to happen -- games for every person, that is -- I think it's going to fall on the shoulders of a company that's geared for women, not on a company that's been for little boys growing up for a long time.

[Lord Tarondor]

BTW, are those the same 41% of women who generally lie about it just so they can be popular within gaming cliques? Last time I checked, polls were hardly correct -- like the survey that showed John Kerry was favored amongst americans 60 to 39% against Bush?

[Lord Tarondor]

According to industry statistics, women make up almost 40 percent of the video game market. This includes everyone from little girls enjoying Barbie games and grandmothers playing online bridge to the growing number of female gamers who go head-to-head with their male counterparts in the current best sellers.

 

There's that little clause again. It's the equivalent of saying 40% of sports athletes are women so NCAA Women's Basketball should have more publicity, when in reality Tennis and Soccer are the major Women's Sports.

[Lord Tarondor]

    * 43% of people who purchase computer games are men and 57% are women.

    * 53% of people who purchase console games are men and 47% are women.

 

One does a double take when one sees that more women buy computer games that men, but note that these figures are related to purchase

[GhostofAnakin]

41.9 % of computer gamers are women.

 

There's that pesky 40-odd percentage again!

 

Not all games are purchased in specialty stores, 57% of computer games are purchased by women. This one has the number of players at 39%, but it's still in the same area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Talk about misleading numbers. It's nice that you highlighted the percentages, but didn't bother to disclose the "fine print".

 

For instance, link one and their 41% number. You touched on it, but didn't bother to actually give a number for console percentage. That drops to 28% of consoles are bought by women. Not quite as big a percentage eh? But yeah, despite the fact that CONSOLE games are bigger selling, lets focus on the one that helps our argument and post the 41% computer game statistic.

 

Then link two, here's an excerpt that kind of disproves that the 40% actually represents those who would play RPGs or FPS.

 

"This includes everyone from little girls enjoying Barbie games and grandmothers playing online bridge to the growing number of female gamers who go head-to-head with their male counterparts in the current best sellers."

 

Basically, your precious 40% number, which is supposed to prove some kind of point, includes GRANDMOTHERS and LITTLE GIRLS who only have interest in specific types of games. Somehow, I can't see my grandma tossing in PS:T and having a go at it. But again, you post the numbers without actually posting the "fine print" that shows those numbers are grossly misleading.

 

And finally, article 3 proves that you once again didn't bother to either read the entire article, or just posted the part that helps your argument. But I'll do you a favor and quote yet another interesting piece of information written in the article.

 

"One does a double take when one sees that more women buy computer games that men, but note that these figures are related to purchase

[Atomic Space Vixen]

BTW, are those the same 41% of women who generally lie about it just so they can be popular within gaming cliques? Last time I checked, polls were hardly correct -- like the survey that showed John Kerry was favored amongst americans 60 to 39% against Bush?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Popular within gaming cliques. Are there really non-gamers who care about that? I quoted three different numbers that were all within 3% of each other, and none of them can be skewed by voting machines with no paper trails and more votes than voters. Figuring out target markets is far more dispassionate than doing political polling.

 

According to industry statistics, women make up almost 40 percent of the video game market. This includes everyone from little girls enjoying Barbie games and grandmothers playing online bridge to the growing number of female gamers who go head-to-head with their male counterparts in the current best sellers.

 

There's that little clause again. It's the equivalent of saying 40% of sports athletes are women so NCAA Women's Basketball should have more publicity, when in reality Tennis and Soccer are the major Women's Sports.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You realize that also means that the 60% of male players includes little boys playing Tonka games and grandfathers playing Minesweeper. You'll have to do better than that.

 

* 43% of people who purchase computer games are men and 57% are women.

* 53% of people who purchase console games are men and 47% are women.

 

One does a double take when one sees that more women buy computer games that men, but note that these figures are related to purchase

[Lord Tarondor]

I'm glad you skipped over the tidbits of fact that show how pointless your statistics are.

 

I hardly care if I'm insulting -- I'm being real, and sports 'are growing' as much as any population, but I still don't see anyone caring about NCAA Women's Basketball, and men certainly don't care about Tennis less its to watch Maria Sharapova or Anna Kournakova. Its the same as games -- there's people there, but not enough for what type of games you want made. There just aren't. As for forum-goers, ya, well, thats too bad they don't show themselves amongst the living cause then I might change my mind.